Conceptual Idea: Jaina Proudmoore's Future?

[LichslayerX]

A pair of issues within WoW Lore that could / should be rectified:

First off, I want to say that this isnt a "Anti Jaina" thread. I happen to really like her as far as leaders go. But there are several factional /storytelling problems which are just un-reconcilable with what we seem from her now.

My prime topic is Jaina Proudmoore. My Second? Sylvanas Windrunner. Both have a great deal of potential. However one is on the fast track to becoming a Raid Boss, and the other? Well the other frankly has no real purpose being in the Alliance given what has happened time and again.


I'll start with Jaina, and as I go, you'll see the interplay and why I feel that the argument I make could create a new "Lease on Life" for both the Forsaken and the Scourge. (Maybe merging them finally)

Dont get me wrong, Jaina's character was great and was well written, but she simply does not fit in with the way Lore for the Alliance appears to be moving. For this reason I deem Jaina needs to have her story moved either to a more proactive Alliance stance, and she needs to be put on the same "Doghouse leash" Sylvanas herself is now.. or she needs to be executed by the Alliance for being a traitor multiple times over. She's done enough things in game to merit it, and when I put myself in Wrynn's shoes I think to myself. "Why is she still here?"

Section I: Overview

Jaina's story from a basic perspective is rapidly shifting from the scope of believable to the scope of a super-hero story where she and Medan save Saturday morning children from the boogie men every week. She just doesnt seem to have a direction in WoW now, and because Arthas was her big attachment, she now has nothing as the Lore presses forward. She was too emotionally distressed to fight him in Icecrown even, and that was a major chance for her and Sylvanas stories to move forward, but which was not acted on.


She still exists however which asks the question "What can we do with her?"


Why is Jaina so in need of a finality to her story? Simple. For starters, she's one of three leaders who fought at Mount Hyjal. Second. She is on good terms with Thrall, and also with the Night Elven Leaders. Seems sterling so far, right? Unfortunately 2-3 people in good terms with you does not a leader of a nation make. The problem is this. She is not in any way tied to the Horde, but despite this continually acts for the sake of ousted (or temporarily defunct leadership) and stays her forces against the Horde. This is not what the Alliance and Horde are doing right now. Their in full swing war over a shattered world. Both want their side to be the side that dominates Azeroth.


The problem with Jaina is that she acts for the ultimate benefit of the Horde a majority of the time. Her people arent completely happy about this, but like her as a ruler regardless. (As shown in the Barrens and Undercity.) Lets consider however. "Why is she still doing so?"

Garrosh wouldn't heed anything she had to say in Dalaran, and more likely would beat her senseless, perhaps educate her with a "lesson" in humiliation, and then have her removed from his throne room if she tried to "discuss things" in Orgrimmar. And that is if Garrosh was feeling merciful and didn't just behead her on the spot or hurl Gorehowl at her and pin her to the wall.


Medivh was executed for opening a portal to the Orc Lands. Jaina however twice has stymied or outright betrayed the when they could have defeated the Horde. Great for us the Horde, but not so great for her. Her father, Admiral Proudmoore? Lets be honest. His first hit on Durotar from Theramore probably would of crushed the Orcs and reduced Durotar to a charred waste. Thrall and Jaina knew that damn well. Ogrimmar wasnt built yet, and so there was no defensible position yet. Jaina allowed the Horde to sneak in and murder her father. Crime 1.

How could Varian be happy with her deciding to freeze him and port him and his troops out of Undercity when he had the Banshee Queen cornered? By her doing this, the Forsaken are now a major threat and most of Lordaeron is in their hands. Crime 2.


The problem is the suspension of belief one must have when it comes to Jaina now. I mean I was waiting post Battle for Undercity for Varian to turn to his left, stare at her and then murmur something about her being an "Orc loving bit-- " draw his sword and run her through; when I played through it Alliance side. It should of occured, but it didnt. ..Why? All we can assume Varian had another concern and didnt want to start war with Theramore while facing Arthas. Jaina says Varian is "My King" so that would mean Jaina should be following orders like any vassal. Which at present she doesn't seem to be with the Southern Barrens.


Section II: Political Spectrum


With the return of Genn Greymane to the Alliance, it seems pretty clear the old leadership of the Alliance is coming back into being. These are the leaders of the Second War. These are guys who know / knew Daelin Proudmoore, and respected him heavily doubtlessly and beat back a Demonic Horde with Anduin Lothar.

The sheer idea that Jaina allowed Rexxar to kill Daelin Proudmoore should be considered a horrible crime, on par with Arthas' murdering of his own father. Thus I say that Jaina needs to be executed or forced from power.

One of the two. Dont debate the semantics for the moment, but at the acts and the results therein. Intent can wait, as people die for less. The end result was she had a duty to stand with her father and instead she allowed his execution. Jaina then made a silent coup and reasserted power over Theramore.

Lets look briefly at the makeup of leadership amongst the seven human Kingdoms. Of the Non-Forsaken Leaders who would rise against Sylvanas and the Horde as a unified front.

Stormwind / Azeroth- Varian Wrynn
Stromguarde- Danath Trollbane (Soon?)
Lordaeron- Tirion Fordring (He's definitely against the Forsaken's re-blighting efforts)
Gilneas- Genn Greymane
Dalaran- ( Jaina? Unlikely. More likely Khadgar or the Mageocracy of Dalaran which is pro-Alliance, and will become moreso its to be expected when the Ambermill massacre is discovered. )
Kul Tiras- ( Jaina? Unlikely. Her brother and Kul Tiras probably has by now heard about how she allowed their father to be murdered and despises her, assuming the nation survived the Cataclysm. )

Alterac- ( Defunct )


Now, lets look at the other races of the Alliance. All of these Races have little to no love of the Horde and Jaina has little to no say in their politics:

Night Elves: Despise the Orcs. They are despoiling Ashenvale and are burning Astranaar. Malfurion should be also assisting Tyrande's defense when she's attacked in Darnassus (if he is not already). Of all the races I can see Malfurion as the most acceptant like Jaina, as he has ties to the Guardians of Hyjal and the Cenarion Circle, but his core loyalty is his wife, and the Alliance by proxy. This is further strengthened by the Worgen and Draenei. Malfurion unlike Jaina has not ever done anything to aid the Orcs directly. He's been brusque with them and willing to work with them, but he has a clear line that the Night Elves and his people are priority one.

Dwarves: Ironforge Dwarves hate the Horde. They also likely dislike Blood Elves since their ambassador is found headless. (Players behead him) Wildhammers hate the Horde, specifically the Dragonmaw Clan. Dark Irons? We don't know Moira's stance, but we can assume she's open to using Horde spies and could pull a Magatha Grimtotem act off if it suited her, but otherwise her goal is to rule Ironforge for her son Fenran.

Gnomes: Gnomes vs. Goblins. Nothing to be said.

Draenei: They were murdered en-masse by a Horde which was demonically corrupted by Grom Hellscream's acts. I doubt they are very Horde sympathetic. I'm sure Jaina has spoke to Velen once or twice, but they arent on best friend terms.

Will all of these things in mind.. Jaina's in the weakest position of the game. She rules a small depot which either A. Should be a nuetral haven for Horde and Alliance (and have its own rep to go with it) or B. Annexed as a territory of Stormwind. The latter is supported by game mechanics also.


Section III: Resolution


So where does the story with Jaina go?


My vote and idea to the Story team is this. Kill Jaina off. Kill her off in a not so nice way, or perhaps in a painful and maybe even outright cruel way. Maybe she gets captured by X future raid boss and has her heart ripped out, and then slowly dies painfully.

I know its mean, but thats what Warcraft is about. Gritty, hard and sometimes. "...Augh you did NOT do that." moments. Like when Sylvanas was executed by Arthas in Warcraft 3.


Alternatively let us assume Wrynn decides after a third incident (which Blizzard would have to create during this Expansion) that a Sorceress of Jaina's power, and Horde sympathizing is outright dangerous. Maybe she does something which she believes will create peace, and Anduin is killed, or nearly killed and sent into a coma for a while.

Varian's a father and a King. He's be prone to a rage, and in it he could do the unthinkable and order Jaina to be executed. Have her hung, maybe stripped of her magic, or a myriad of other things. This vote could be reached by the races and factions of the Alliance pretty swiftly, especially with Garrosh's new Horde moving across Azeroth like a swarm. They all decide Proudmoore is unstable, and this cement the Alliance as Anti-Garrosh entirely. Which for faction strife, is exactly what it should be. Alliance Vs. Horde.


If Jaina did get killed, I think it could further be a opener to the second part of her story. One that might be very grim, bleak, and also give her finally the "shove" she needs to mature. Undeath. With the revelation of the Val'kyr and their ability to make Forsaken of humans, she could come back as a Forsaken and maybe work with Sylvanas or something if her story "must" continue. Maybe she even replaces Sylvanas if somehow Sylvanas has to be killed herself one day.

But its important to hear me out fully. I am not asking for this or requesting it because I hate Jaina or even because I want to take a Alliance Leader out. The problem with Jaina is that Jaina herself is not pro-Alliance and in this situation and the times the Alliance faces, she has no true place now. She is a pretty to look at NPC, but there's not much else more going for her.


The fall out? Thrall would be furious no doubt. He'd be angry on a scale he hasn't been since Taretha's death. Garrosh and him would BOTH want Varian's blood. Sylvanas might even get her final revenge on Arthas by using the Valk'yr to bring Jaina back and giving Arthas one final jab. The woman he loved? Guess what. Undead like me now.

Of course this either could piss Thrall off more, or serve to get Sylvanas into better graces with Thrall depending on how she spun the act. ( "I had to do it because she would have been slain! My Val'kyr "saved" her. Your welcome." )

Jaina as an undead would give the Forsaken a voice of reason and a yin to the yang.

How would Jaina react to being undead? No idea. She might go completely insane, or become a more dangerous enemy than even Sylvanas. Lets consider. She's got a lot of Aegwynn's training and spell lore. She could wipe out contingents of Alliance Forces with a few spells. She'd be like Nathanos Blightcaller on crack. However I think with some storytelling it could re-solidify Horde Leadership and re-foster the Forsaken as a crucial part of the Horde. Imagine if when the Forsaken walked in, Jaina and Sylvanas jointly walked in together to talk to Thrall and Garrosh about the current movements of the Alliance? Thrall's mind would be. ~"..I am so sorry Jaina."~ while tempered with his anger for the humans, and a commitment to free her from her curse. Garrosh would think. "Why does Thrall even allow these.. trash to..--" Thrall gives him a very angry look indicating that one of those Forsaken is his best friend. Thats some powerful potential right there.

Closing the idea is this point. The Forsaken probably have many members that fought for Jaina at Hyjal and were added to the Scourge there too. So there would be some old commanders perhaps or many soldiers who would fight for her. Sylvanas easily might have to share power with Jaina in Undercity, which wouldnt be a bad thing at all.


Not to mention, much like Anduin's Priest inclinations, Jaina could be a hell of a figure head for training Orc Mages. She doesnt hate Orcs. She's the greatest Mage since Medivh. There's a heroic teacher.


The Horde and Alliance conflict would be cemented though. That would be the biggest thing.


Sure Jaina is doing some things in the comics which deal with the Tirisfal Council.. but how would Unlife compromise that, when you have people like Meryl Winterstorm on the Council?

I am leery of delving into the comic rationales however as these arent things the average player sees. Six years ago the big complaint was that one couldnt experience the full story without a 40 man raid. Now, the same could be said of the Comics. I think that Medan should come to the Horde, as has his mother and so too should Jaina. Either as a Forsaken for the sake of player race reasons and story ideas, or for the above points I made which I think are evidence that moreso than Sylvanas.. Jaina needs to be removed from power and from life.


The alternative to sparing Jaina, is Blizzard would need to eventually split the Horde in half in reconciliation. One half being the Thrall Horde which could "maybe" side with Varian. The other side being "The Defias Alliance" in which varied races would join against Wrynn and aid Garrosh. I dont think Blizzard wants to have Undead in Stormwind or Humans in Orgrimmar however, and so that is why I say this. "Jaina Proudmoore is a great character, but it is time for her to die."

Maybe in Undeath however she can continue her story, and redeem for Arthas and her own sins, by saving his people which are now the Forsaken? No idea, but time can decide that one.

I was surfing the internet after I wrote this, and found a interesting design: Check it.

http://www.mmowned.com/forums/world-...cromancer.html


Section IV: Addition / Slight Confusion


On a somewhat saddening counterpoint, would you folks believe that the MVP called Snowfox got me banned for posting this in the Story forums? The entire thread was deleted after she posted about how "Blizzard does not tolerate Keyloggers or links to sites that support it. Nor is Jaina going to be killed off.". A few minutes later I was banned for 14 days and the entire thread vanished.

The problem is that the website I listed above however is NOT a keylogger.. I dunno folks. I'd love to post this idea in the Story forum again, but I am concerned if I do I'll get a perma ban for a idea?

If Mod can tell me how the foregoing violated the ToS, I am entirely willing to remand or alter my post to fit the constraints you wish. Reposting it in the RP Discussion forum because I think RPers will get more interest out of debating this idea than anyone else.

---------- Post added 2011-02-16 at 11:56 PM ----------

Edit 2: For some reason its showing that I posted in this Forum and the Roleplay Forum also.. I dont see two seperate threads though? So confused by this, but if for some reason it double posted I profusely apologize. I hate spammers.

[Vadoor]

I agree with you that Jaina has become a very lackluster character, and I agree that many times she has screwed the Alliance over big time. But should she be killed off or join the horde? No, I would disagree with that point. If anything she should be forced into a position by the Alliance to spearhead an assault on the Northern Barrens or she should simply be removed as the head of Theramore. Or better yet, send her to Lordaeron and have her start a front against Sylvanas and try to retake Lordaeron.

[trulte]

It is true that Jaina is serving no purpose now other than pissing off Alliance players robbing them of their chance to do something against the Horde every time she is present. Still the idea of her becoming forsaken will certainly piss of Thrall, he would not approve of Sylvanas raising an old friend to live like a cursed corpse. Also if this would happen i would not see Jaina joining Sylvanas as she even with her sometimes pro-horde she still haves a good friend/teacher/aunt relationship with Anduin and she would never want to harm her people (Theramore/Kul'tiras and the rest of the alliance) She does not tolerate mindless war and certainly not Sylvanas plague bombs and tactics. I would predict Jaina creating a rouge faction of Forsaken instead of joining Sylvanas and her crazy beliefs. Either that or she would go completely nuts and just end up as a paranoid wreak not resembling anything of what she once was. If she was to die i would see her go trying to protect Anduin or the abomination of a character Med'an or maybe save the players from Deathwing i don't know.

But i do not think Jaina would join up with Sylvanas or the Horde if she was raised. She could be mind controlled by Sylvanas, but that would only give her a one way ticket to the Twisting Nether by Thrall no doubt.

Great idea anyway if worked on a little more, but i don't think blizz would go in that direction with this character.

[LichslayerX]

See Vadoor, this is what I meant on the Forums. I agree with all of your points entirely, but I'm really dubious on if she'd ever actually do it. Taking your idea and now poising it as a addendum to the thread, lets say Varian ordered her to do so. Do we really think she would? If she didnt, then why should she be accorded a preference when Alterac was completely destroyed for similar crimes of consorting with the Horde?

This is the debate I wanted to open up on the WoW forums. The second idea Trulte makes is good stuff too! But here's a hypothetical now for you too. What if she were to say as a Forsaken to Thrall. "Thrall.. I accept this. Its ok. The humans have abandoned me also.. and like this at least I can fully aid you and Aggra now." Maybe it isnt Jaina's full feelings, but I do wonder what he'd feel on that.

[trulte]

See Vadoor, this is what I meant on the Forums. I agree with all of your points entirely, but I'm really dubious on if she'd ever actually do it. Taking your idea and now poising it as a addendum to the thread, lets say Varian ordered her to do so. Do we really think she would? If she didnt, then why should she be accorded a preference when Alterac was completely destroyed for similar crimes of consorting with the Horde?

This is the debate I wanted to open up on the WoW forums. The second idea Trulte makes is good stuff too! But here's a hypothetical now for you too. What if she were to say as a Forsaken to Thrall. "Thrall.. I accept this. Its ok." Maybe it isnt Jaina's full free will, but I do wonder what he'd feel on that.

Sylvanas have hated Arthas for turning her into a monstrosity that she is now, that and killing her people along with various other things. Sylvanas could throw in a little mind control which could go unnoticed by if she is careful with it or undeath could mess with her brain and all that which could cause her character to take a 180 degrees turn which could either be bad or good.

The humans and all abandoning Jaina, well if she is killed and they have a burial or she is executed because of her crimes there are still people within the Alliance who would never abandon Jaina even how much she does to prevent the Alliance from slaughtering Horde people. After all her real goal is peace and harmony.

[Oneirophobia]

While I agree that things with Jaina have toned down, there are several reasons as to why she is in the position shes in.

For one, when Kul Tiras attacked Durotar, it was fairly early after the defence of Hyjal, and things between Thrall and the humans were relatively calm, so the attack on the Orcs was probably a whincing matter for most of the human leaders.
When Jaina intervened and prevented the sacking of Durotar, it was probably very easy for the humans to look the other way (probably not so much for Kul Tiras, but they're small enough to be over looked or ignored by the other human nations) and just pretend it never happened, in favor of slowing down unrest between the Orcs and the humans.
The fact that the Orcs didn't retaliate on the rest of humankind was pretty amazing and I think for that reason alone, they humans looked the other way.

Nextly, I think Varian didn't kill or even repremend Jaina for her teleporting his forces out of UC was probably due to Anduin, as shes basically all he has for a mother. On top of that, its very likely he has a deep respect for her for looking after his kid, and he may or may not be in love with her (as males around her are so prone to, looking at you Arthas and Kael'thas..).
Also, she is a link to Dalaran, and a much needed one. I don't think Rhonin would be very impressed with the Alliance if they executed Jaina for a peaceful measure, especially when they weren't in full war yet. Considering how much he values peace between the Horde in the Alliance, it was probably a very smooth decision for Varian not to butcher his right-hand for her defiance.

Also, shes not buddy-buddy with Garrosh and correct me if I'm wrong, but she hasn't made any visits to Orgimmar since Thrall stepped down.
That, and if she did I'm pretty sure she would kick Garrosh's ass. ;P

As for her story, its mostly done. I think shes just going to continue being a mentor for Anduin and whatever class he decides to be (Wtf priest with a bow or something? o.O).

[Vadoor]

I think the Kirin Tor has a much stronger relationship with the Alliance than it does the Horde, especially after the Ambermill Massacre. What I would really like to see is Jaina becoming a part of the war effort due to some incident that forces her to lose her neutrality aspect.

I personally find that Jaina helping the Horde kill her father is something that should really question her leadership. The Alliance nations had the Horde cornered, Kul Tiras moved in for the kill and they were betrayed by his very daughter Jaina. The only real hero I see in the war for the barrens is Dwarven general that takes over after the Alliance general is murdered. He wants to destroy the Horde and he has every reason to, I just hope he intends do go through with it. (Ally fanboi here) Now if he could only get Jaina in line to fully support the war effort then the southern barrens would already be conquered.

[Khorianas]

I just have read the the first post and one thing that comes to my mind is that most people don't seem to see that Jaina is trying to save lives, nothing else. She is not "Pro Horde" she is and always has been "against bloodshed".

I couldn't find a proper way to sort my thoughts so here is what came to my mind, when reading your suggestion, and parts of this discussion:

Concerning the conflicts she was part of:

1.Theramore/Daelin

She traded the life of her father against thousands of Alliance and Horde soldiers that would have died if he hadn't.
I just read up on the facts, and you should get those right. Daelin was attacking the Horde alone. He sought vengance from the orcs and the only nation that attacked was Kul'tiras, and not even at full strength. He was no where near destroying the horde but pushed back into his last fortress. Jaina merely helped break a blockade to save lives in that battle, mostly those of her city of Theramore which her father usurped for his war, nothing more. If you want to check the facts, play WC3 or read up on wowpedia: Daelin Proudmoore
So she was not going against any Alliance politics here.

2. World of Warcraft Incidents

Thrall and Jaina also prevent a second sparking war in "Cycle of Hatred" if I remember correctly, but this time the Burning Blade sparked the conflict. All of this was under the Rule of Bolvar, who also wanted to keep peace with the Horde. Again nothing against Alliance politics.

Same thing with the battle of Undercity. If she had allowed the fight, one of the Leaders had died (totally irrelevant to speculate which one). Which would have led to an all out war between Alliance and Horde which is again an outright stupid idea, in a time where the Lich King is at the peak of his power. She saved the Alliances asses right there, and those of the Horde too. It is discussable if she was disobeying orders here, but i would think Varian was in his Logosh mode again, and when he cooled of there was no open war between Alliance and Horde. (far too trivial way to explain his behavior always with Lo'gosh, admittedly but it is handy so I'll bite.)

All she does is keep Alliance and Horde in a balance to be prepared for the true threats that are the Old Gods, Deathwing and the Burning Legion.
All of the leaders that were fighting at Mount Hyjal do that, mind you. Thrall Jaina and Malfurion. Of course for all of them exist boundaries, and that is why Legion and Twilight agents keep having success in provoking the conflict.

Concerning Theramore/ Jaina's relationship to the human kingdoms:

The people of Theramore are in fact happy she is there I would think, because she for example works hours in a stormy nigh to save people from dying in her town rather than doing politics with Varian, and those who have fought with her at Hyjal are fiercely loyal to her, a false comment about Jaina gets your nose broken in Theramore, this is also official lore. It is said that Theramore had an uneasy relationship with the other human nations, about leadership but that information is outdated I would think but I found nothing current on that sadly.

Since she is no crowned ruler and only rules a small town/ trade harbour with barely a tenth of Stormwinds population, I think the "big" Alliance leaders couldn't care less about her as of today.

Varian is an exception of course, he often argues with her about a course of action, but that is because of his split personality. In the Shattering he apologizes for his Lo'gosh personality once, if I recall correctly, and as it was said she takes care of Anduin a lot, (even if her tea sipping aunty Jaina image in the Shattering makes me cringe.) and that is why she still has influence on Varian.


Comparing Jaina and Sylvanas, position wise, is also a bit strange; Slyvanas leads the forsaken, while Jaine is more of an advisor and tutor. I would set her on one level with Varok Saurfang. Respected Veteran and advisor. No more no less. They both are at the moment the ones keeping the two problem children Garosh and Varian in check. Since Bolvar, Dranosh and Thrall are out of the picture.

And if you want a future purpose for Jaina, Medan has shamanistic and arcane magical talents and will need teachers for both, should the Burning Legion return. Guess which Alliance/Horde peace wanting dreamteam could do that. That is what medan is. The sadly much to perfect solution to this. He has Horde and Alliance blood in him and will be possibly trained by two of their most trusted leaders, and is an f*in powerful being. A Guardian will be needed if Sargeras ever returns to Azeroth and he is getting prepared for that as a deus ex machina for my tastes.

If you want her to die, the most logical thing in my opinion would be if she gets assassinated by a Burning Blade/Legion or perhaps Twilight assassin that blames the Horde, to spark another war.

Ah and an edit: The Roleplaying Discussion is a Sub-Forum of the RP Forum so if you posted in the Discussion forum the last Post field in the main one will also show your post, if it is the most recent. No worries there is no double post.

Another edit: As far as The Last Guardian goes (If that is still canon i haven't read any of the comics) , Medivh was killed not formally executed or sentenced but plain simply killed, by Lothar Khadgar and Garona for being possesed by Sargeras. No judication here, just a necessary kill.

[The Madgod]

I'm a touch sick and posting from an iPod this morning, so I'll keep it brief.

You've got some good points (though I agree with Khor that Jaina is more pro peace than horde), and I particularly like the idea of Jaina becoming undead, even if it's a bit of a longshot. The way I see it, she would only accept becoming undead if there was some great goal or duty she absolutely HAS to accomplish, and something big (execution for treason?) got in the way. Otherwise, with the experiences she has had with Arthas and the Scourge, she would never go through with it. Even then, she may not do it. Sure, she could be controlled, but what happens when the controller passes on?

It's a good idea, and I think Blizzard should consider it, but it would take a lot of good storytelling for it to be plausible.