DK tanking nerf.

[Deleted]

30 > 25% Death Strike happened after 4.0.1 went Live, it was because of the Stamina - Health Formula Change in Beta.
25 > 20% Death Strike happened day 4.0.3a went Live as a Hotfix, so the Tooltip on Live is not updated. This is what we have on Live right now.
20 > 15% Death Strike is happening now, on the 4.0.6 Patch PTRs.

Makes any sense?

[rigginsbear]

30 > 25% Death Strike happened after 4.0.1 went Live, it was because of the Stamina - Health Formula Change in Beta.
25 > 20% Death Strike happened day 4.0.3a went Live as a Hotfix, so the Tooltip on Live is not updated. This is what we have on Live right now.
20 > 15% Death Strike is happening now, on the 4.0.6 Patch PTRs.

Makes any sense?

The MMO post is saying its being reduced from 25%, but as we are all aware, 20% is the current DS coefficient. That is where I am asking for clarification:

A.) Where is the actual blue post to the pic I have above.
B.) Why is it implying DS is currently 25 when its 20%

[Deleted]

Like I said, 25 > 20% Death Strike happened day 4.0.3a went Live as a Hotfix, so the Tooltip on Live is not updated. This is what we have on Live right now. The Tooltip isn't updated. And those Patch Notes are Datamined, the program compares Tooltips, whatever it finds different it sends to Bibi and Bibi writes it all out.

[rigginsbear]

So youre saying its catching up on being backlogged from 2 updates? I guess thats where I'm getting confused.

[Deleted]

Nothings OP about it, other Classes just QQd about it enough so Blizzard brought it down another notch.

Was 20% on Live also hotfixed with the BP change, now it'll be down to 15%.

I'm afraid the situation we face currently on live is that a DK tank takes less damage overall than all the other classes, by a long long way. It is OP, and I've tanked with it since release day, and compared it to my pally tank. The healing and Blood Shield give a huge advantage.

IMHO:
If you're a DK, and can't admit there are several ways to label yourself as "a stronger tank" (not based on player skills) than paladin or warriors tanks; I think you should play the other tanks to compare first

Alot of victim QQ will come about 'jealous' players that QQ'd to blizzard, and Blizzard gave them what they wanted. Fact remains that it wasn't fair, nor balanced. (PvE... I don't know jack about PvP )
I prefer to tank on my DK because I have an easier time staying alive.
I prefer to heal a decent (or better) DK tank over a great paladin or warrior tank, because I'll have less trouble.

/ww out

Totally agree. While Blood is horrible for tanking multiple mobs because of the way the blood shield works, it is totally overpowered in a tank-and-spank boss tanking situation.

DK changes are confusing at best right now. The changes discussed by GC, I do not see.

The damage buffs make no sense. All they do is make blood more appealing for pvp.

Still waiting to see what ultimately happens for DS.

The damage changes can be expected for all tanks, because as with every expansion, Feral tanks do so much more DPS while tanking than the other specs. While it may not seem significant, an extra 1k dps from your tank is just as good as an extra 1k dps from a dps.

So youre saying its catching up on being backlogged from 2 updates? I guess thats where I'm getting confused.

Yes, the datamining compares the tooltips etc in the live client to the ones deployed to the PTR client.

[rigginsbear]

Yes, the datamining compares the tooltips etc in the live client to the ones deployed to the PTR client.

my whole point is that the what is posted is that is ISN"T whats currently on live.

[Rennadrel]

Blood Presence change was a tool tip fix, it's been 30% for 2 months and you probably wouldn't notice the difference. DK's are getting some nice buffs, the Icebound Fortitude change is really slick and addresses problems we have in PvP with getting stunned by all other melee classes to death, it's basically like a Paladin bubble but it doesn't grant full immunity from damage, just reduces it by a measly 20%, though combined with AMS and/or Lichborne makes for a near invincible DK.

---------- Post added 2011-01-06 at 11:39 PM ----------

IMHO:
If you're a DK, and can't admit there are several ways to label yourself as "a stronger tank" (not based on player skills) than paladin or warriors tanks; I think you should play the other tanks to compare first

Alot of victim QQ will come about 'jealous' players that QQ'd to blizzard, and Blizzard gave them what they wanted. Fact remains that it wasn't fair, nor balanced. (PvE... I don't know jack about PvP )
I prefer to tank on my DK because I have an easier time staying alive.
I prefer to heal a decent (or better) DK tank over a great paladin or warrior tank, because I'll have less trouble.

/ww out

I played a Paladin for 3 years straight and have seen my share of tanking on him, it's a joke, even after all the changes they made to the class in 4.0 it was still easy to hold threat on mobs. It actually takes skill to hold aggro as a DK tank on multiple mobs, which is probably why I haven't seen any DK tanks in random heroics. They are in my opinion the best single target tanking class in the game and are certainly a lot easier to heal and deal with for surviving.

[Deleted]

my whole point is that the what is posted is that is ISN"T whats currently on live.

On Live, RIGHT NOW our Death Strike = 20%. On PTRs, RIGHT NOW our Death Strike = 15%.

All you need to know.

I'm afraid the situation we face currently on live is that a DK tank takes less damage overall than all the other classes, by a long long way. It is OP, and I've tanked with it since release day, and compared it to my pally tank. The healing and Blood Shield give a huge advantage.

I think we agree that in some situations Blood Shield is overpowered. In these situations reducing the strength of Death Strike does absolutely nothing however. In these situations a System re-design to Blood Shield would serve way more.

---------- Post added 2011-01-07 at 07:41 AM ----------

While the IBF Stun change is awesome, we still need the 2 minute cooldown back on it. If they merely want all Tanks to have a 50% DR 3 Min CD Cooldown then there's Sanguine Fortitude for that. Now that they've buffed IBF its even more important than before to get the cooldown back down to 2 minutes.

[Ryukaar]

The DS changes make the 5sec dmg taken increase almost completely pointless. Extra 5% for getting beaten to the ground? Why not just make it 15% for full time then or give us something to scale it with the amount of mobs spanking u. Sure i agree i was better of than other tanks at BH for example but that was the only advantage DKs had.

I really liked how DS worked after 4.0.1 but its getting silly now...

[Zaak]

My DK has 194~k HP raidbuffed, so my 7% DS heals around 14000. So we have to get 95k Dmg in 5sek for the 15% to be over those 14000 HP, and this, at least in Normal modes, isn't the case very often

[Zao]

Keep in mind that those changes are datamined. For now it's probably safer to gow ith the official notes and just assume/hope that the datamined stuff is not intended for live servers.

[milowen]

Even if it is not intended, how many times did we see non-intended things on ptr going on live servers ?

Nerfing DS heal (and by the way Blood Shield) and buffing tank dps, I don't see at all where they wanted to go to :/

[Sufferings]

This is quite the game changer for DK tanking. I had taken to mastery stacking, and it was suiting my guild quite well (am at 22 mastery unbuffed). I had been arguing hard that stacking mastery was the way to go, basically reforging your avoidance into it when possible, but this will ultimately force us to go to avoidance heavy reforging/gemming, as we will likely not see very high death strike numbers. Very disappointed in this change, we didn't need that large of a nerf, and eager to get on the PTR and see what we need to do next.

Oh, and increasing our damage while tanking? Another head scratcher.

[Deleted]

Oh, and increasing our damage while tanking? Another head scratcher.

We were about 1K DPS behind all the other Tanks, the Buffs were necessary.

More stuff is coming for sure however. Unholy still needs it's new Blightcaller, and there's probably a few more things they'll do. I hope. (Single-Disease Frost, Outbreak Cooldown Blood, Blood Boil Animation fix, new PowerAuras for Blood etc. etc. etc?)

Re: Changes not on Official Patch Notes:
Most of the missing ones are Tooltip fixes, for example Blood Presence was Hotfixed, that's missing. Death Strike probably accidentally fell into this category too. The Heart Strike, Blood Boil, and Blood Strike damage changes missing are weird, they are however on the Tooltips at ptr.wowhead.com which takes it's Data straight from the PTRs directly (no Datamining). Even with unintended changes, I doubt so many of them can be "unintended."

[Deleted]

The fact of the matter is, Blizzard play the numbers game. They love the numbers. When they see a million or more DK tanks healing for X and absorbing X, and compare it to the numbers they get from the millions of other tanks, the big discrepancy is all they need to say "that needs a 5% nerf".

The fact of the matter is, in my serious opinion, the whole idea of a self-healing tank is flawed from the very beginning. Either you will take more damage than other tanks, and it'll be worth it because you heal for enough to be "OP", or you'll just take more damage and therefore be flawed in your role as a person who's supposed to take and mitigate damage. Think about it.

Never mind the fact that healers mana now matters a whole lot more, and they cant assume you're going to heal yourself, they need to expend mana anyway to heal that extra damage you take. With large HP pools, that may not mean overhealing.. but it does mean they might use a flash heal when they could have used something more efficient. With the other tank, they could have used that more efficient heal. 2 or 3 times a fight, and your healer is 20k mana lower than he would be if you were a paladin, warrior or druid.

[Wingwraith]

Never mind the fact that healers mana now matters a whole lot more, and they cant assume you're going to heal yourself, they need to expend mana anyway to heal that extra damage you take. With large HP pools, that may not mean overhealing.. but it does mean they might use a flash heal when they could have used something more efficient. With the other tank, they could have used that more efficient heal. 2 or 3 times a fight, and your healer is 20k mana lower than he would be if you were a paladin, warrior or druid.

That sounds like a healer issue to me. By this point, healers should know that we do roughly 30% of our own healing. If we're not in imminent danger of dying they shouldn't be using their fast/expensive heal as we'll be able to heal ourselves a great deal w/in the next couple gcd's. It's very situational and hard to make blanket statements about.

[Brince]

Another amazing idea from blizzard geniuses, as GS said they changed death strike, now it's almost useles even if you're blood.
Btw up to now dk tanks are the worst to heal in a dungeon, i don't know how can you be happy with healing one of them. The damage i take is spiky as hell.
Next time nerf it so it can heal 0% of the damage take in the previously 0 seconds -.-
Also our mastery is becoming more and more useles.

Time to remove blood tank as second spec and put a pvp one. GG bliz.

[kerwyn]

Another amazing idea from blizzard geniuses, as GS said they changed death strike, now it's almost useles even if you're blood.

Making ridiculous claims based on absolutely nothing but a knee jerk reaction is fun, isn't it?

Seriously though. We don't know the full context of these changes, calm down, when it's 2 weeks from now and this patch is about to be released with this, you can start wondering what the fuck is going on.

[Sufferings]

We were about 1K DPS behind all the other Tanks, the Buffs were necessary.

Agreed, we were behind, but I guess my point was why? No one picks and chooses a tank in their raid because they do slightly more damage than another, they pick the tank that can stay alive the best. All this patch does for us (so far) is make us a little squishier and hit a little harder.

We still have plenty of time till this patch is finalized, but unfortunately Blizzard has a nasty habit of nerfing abilities to far and then taking another couple patches to "get it right." So yes, not time to panic yet, but definitely disappointing.

[Deleted]

Tbh I know some Raid Leaders that would take X Tank over Y Tank if they did more DPS for a Berserk fight. For example the guy with the Potions, friend's Guild does Dual-Feral there for the extra DPS.

Blizz has gotten into a nasty habit of rushing things tbh.

Everything (buff-wise) they've applied to us so far should have been resolved in Beta. Especially the Might of the Frozen Wastes change, which we were telling them to do for months.