Remove DPS talents that convert spirit into hit.

[CR77]

That would require Blizz to actually put Boomkin and Ele shaman gear in the game, too much work lol.

[LolFrank]

The reason for this whole spirit converted to hit was FOR hybrid classes. Mages and Warlocks shouldn't be rolling on the gear because it doesn't benefit them anymore since their talents/armor got scrapped

[Wannabetank]

so much misunderstanding about warlocks, i'll make this clear now.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=28176/fel-armor#comments

Spirit where? spirit benefits locks inside combat? no. Benefits EVERY caster but us. At lest you can argue over spirit gear where as i'd rather run around with resilience while grinding... life tap -> soul harvest is mana sorted.

I'll let u all continue argueing but remember next time you think a warlocks overpowered.. stop. think. learn. They have a harder time obtaining gear you should be overgearing us. Unless u missed tol barad exploit then cya in bg's

[CR77]

Pretty sure spirit doesn't do anything for mages either dude. Arcane lost its spirit to hit talent too.

[Wannabetank]

The reason for this whole spirit converted to hit was FOR hybrid classes. Mages and Warlocks shouldn't be rolling on the gear because it doesn't benefit them anymore since their talents/armor got scrapped

None beleivers http://www.wowhead.com/spell=6117/mage-armor well lest no1 can argue that mages arent op, since half the coumminity thinks they are

Cloth + spirit = priest
Leather + spirit = druid
mail + spirit = shaman
Plate + spirit = paladin

Only 1 class has a viable healing spec for each proficiency, off sets are to be rolled between these 4 classes.

feels like its being blown out of proportion.

[Jonisawsom]

Actually, the priest talent allows for just that. Shadow Priests can take spirit gear from healers and then turn around and take hit gear from warlocks/mages.

Our guild policy doesn't allow that to happen, but in randoms and stuff, it does and will happen.

Even Elementals and Boomkins try to roll on spirit necklaces when there are hit necklaces that drop.

It IS an issue.

I'm sorry Simca, I normally think you're very level headed, and even your later posts explained a bit more on the loot situation but here is something to consider.

http://www.wowhead.com/items=4?filte...rs=1:1;crv=0:0

So if your Boomkin/Ele/Spriest aren't hit capped from their armor items you'd deny them necks to help reach the cap because there are so many that drop?

How about rings?

http://www.wowhead.com/items=4?filte...rs=1:1;crv=0:0

So let's see, there is not a single ring or neck that drops inside of raids that has hit rating, and the only 359 ring that does have hit is from the VP vendor.

I agree with your later posts about gearing up the raid as evenly/fairly as possible, but denying hybrids spirit jewelry "because they can get hit jewelry" appears to be wrong. Now of course they can roll on crit/haste/mastery jewelry with the other caster dps and reforge for hit, but that means you should not allow any of your healers to roll on anything that doesn't have spirit correct? I mean if it has just 2 of crit/haste/mastery that means it's an obvious dps item right?

If said hybrids are going to reforge the spirit because they are at/over the hit cap, I can totally agree with passing to a healer, although I'd have to point out that if healers are already geared enough to not OOM during the fight they don't really need more spirit do they? Have to look at things from more than one angle.

[Simca]

I'm sorry Simca, I normally think you're very level headed, and even your later posts explained a bit more on the loot situation but here is something to consider.

http://www.wowhead.com/items=4?filte...rs=1:1;crv=0:0

So if your Boomkin/Ele/Spriest aren't hit capped from their armor items you'd deny them necks to help reach the cap because there are so many that drop?

How about rings?

http://www.wowhead.com/items=4?filte...rs=1:1;crv=0:0

So let's see, there is not a single ring or neck that drops inside of raids that has hit rating, and the only 359 ring that does have hit is from the VP vendor.

I agree with your later posts about gearing up the raid as evenly/fairly as possible, but denying hybrids spirit jewelry "because they can get hit jewelry" appears to be wrong. Now of course they can roll on crit/haste/mastery jewelry with the other caster dps and reforge for hit, but that means you should not allow any of your healers to roll on anything that doesn't have spirit correct? I mean if it has just 2 of crit/haste/mastery that means it's an obvious dps item right?

If said hybrids are going to reforge the spirit because they are at/over the hit cap, I can totally agree with passing to a healer, although I'd have to point out that if healers are already geared enough to not OOM during the fight they don't really need more spirit do they? Have to look at things from more than one angle.

I agree with basically everything you said. It is more complex than my first post in the thread made it seem, and my statement on the choices of necks was made without much double-checking.

The point I'm trying to get at is that there are circumstances where it is very, very frustrating for healers and non-spirit-using DPS and even the hybrids themselves (1501581058 spirit on their gear, massive reforging required), which is why I think they should just trash the entire hit rating stat entirely.

Although, you should also take into account probably, that hit is actually a low priority stat for Elemental Shaman in particular, and a very high priority stat for most healers.

Edit: Looking through the epics, it seems that Blizzard strayed away from both spirit and hit on jewelry/cloaks/weapons/offhands/relic-slot-items, to help alleviate this problem.

[Teslatroll]

Lovin' it. Still have to get a few Elemental only pieces, due to huge amounts of spirit, but all in all, I have way less gear than before! And i'm loving it!

22% hit chance anyone?

[Xelestial]

I dont like it, get off my spirit

QQ kthx
Thoughts?

No. Some of us are actually dual spec and do not like carrying two sets of gear or being severely gimped in one spec or the other. It's not like Mages and Warlocks can roll on it, only hybrids.

[BoomChickn]

I disagree, besides, I often have to heal on my offspec, so my whole set of gear is spirit rather than hit. Only things that I change out are trinkets, as those tend to be very specific.

No. Some of us are actually dual spec and do not like carrying two sets of gear or being severely gimped in one spec or the other. It's not like Mages and Warlocks can roll on it, only hybrids.

Just what I was saying...

[Ershiin]

No. I like not having to gather a second set of gear just to do my dailies, thank you.

This.. If anything i'd like to see Spirit fully converted into the "hit" stat baseline for all classes.. Clear up even more clutter on gear.

[Simca]

This.. If anything i'd like to see Spirit fully converted into the "hit" stat baseline for all classes.. Clear up even more clutter on gear.

Exactly. If Blizzard half-asses things and makes it easier for half the classes to gear for multiple specs, it isn't fair to leave Mages and Warlocks behind.

The entire hit stat should be thrown out as well as the hit-spirit conversion talents, and just have every class or at the very least, every caster, use Spirit to have their spells hit better.

[Abandon]

The Shadow Priest gear is somewhat in between. I imagine their BiS uses a mix of both. However, just like it wasn't fair that Holy Paladins used to take Mail healing gear, Mail caster gear, Leather caster gear, and Cloth caster gear, and then take their own plate healing gear, it isn't fair that Shadow Priests can take from multiple sources of gear while others are limited.

Shadow Priests have a right to the gear, of course. But they don't have a right to twice as much gear as anyone else because of a talent. This just adds a complicated social dynamic, where guilds on a loot council have to step in and say, okay, you just won 2 spirit pieces and 2 hit pieces tonight. Let some other people have a turn.

I see your point, and while I can see these specs being able to roll on two types of gear in something like a random dungeon could cause problems, in guilds I would be sure that, as you said happened in your guild, they would simply make a decision on how they handle those specs rolling on gear. The change was not really done to try and give those specs an advantage though, it was so there was less useless gear dropping in groups or raids. Having Spellpower Hit Leather items dropping in runs with no Boomkins was never fun.

Quite right, and I'm not suggesting Blizzard limits the rolls on spirit pieces to healers or anything like that at all.

Where no other hybrid specialization in the game can do this?

Well, to an extent. Tanking classes now share weapons with DPS with stats like Mastery and Expertise and Hit being important for both of them, and Death Knights have always used Melee DPS weapons. I believe Tanking Druids now also share gear with DPS Feral Druids and Rogues, in that they all use leather Agility gear.

Yeah, it really is. Trust me, I play a Holy Paladin, and I -know- it was stupid that we could roll (and legitimately use) half the gear in the entire game (before Plate Specialization was added). The solution isn't to remove the talent though. It's to remove hit as a stat from the entire game and leave Spirit to fill the same role.

The only problem with that is that it would remove some of the distinctiveness from the game. They already removed a number of stats because they were confusing or overly complicated or redundent, but I am not sure they would really want the only difference between a Healer and a DPS to be their weapon enchant and trinkets. The classes that were given these talents were done so to reduce the chance of gear nobody can use dropping, but this would just mean that every item is something everyone can use, which just seems messy.

[Agroculture]

Out of interest, why does the Shadow Priest not have any right to the gear? He is "taking" gear with Spirit from healers, and "taking" gear with hit from Mages and Warlocks. Where's the Shadow Priest gear then? You act like they don't have just as much right to roll on them.

Why does a shadowpriest have a right on every piece of cloth gear and yet the other 8 cloth specs don't?

---------- Post added 2011-01-07 at 03:21 AM ----------

The only problem with that is that it would remove some of the distinctiveness from the game. They already removed a number of stats because they were confusing or overly complicated or redundent, but I am not sure they would really want the only difference between a Healer and a DPS to be their weapon enchant and trinkets. The classes that were given these talents were done so to reduce the chance of gear nobody can use dropping, but this would just mean that every item is something everyone can use, which just seems messy.

What's good for the goose (shadowpriest) is good for the ganter (mages and warlocks).Distinctiveness rings so hollow coming from someone who fully benefits from the system yet appeals to others to conserve the "uniqueness" that the spirit/hit conversion promotes.Simply put,a shadowpriest really has no say on whether preserving hit and spirit seperate is good for the game since they are allready not separate for them.It's borderline hypocritical.

[Zappidoo]

Ok heres the Boomkin BiS I've been going off of. *graymatterwow.blogspot.com/p/moonkin-raiding-gear-list-as-of_06.html* this actually breaks down the value of the item with both hit and pure dps taken into account.

Point 1 - I'm gearing out hit cap for raid it is number one priority. Is there really an argument against this? As of right now I'm I'm almost in full heroic gear I think maybe 2 pieces away and as of right now I'm not hit capped. *us.battle.net/wow/en/character/khaz-modan/vanillakilla/simple*
What makes you think being a healer gives you some kind of higher need for spirit gear than a boomkin does? What you heal? Am i supposed to put you on a pedestal or something? Get over yourselves.... The point being spirit benefits both a healer and a dps now so deal with it . If I'm not hit capped I'm rolling on it. If I am then i wont roll on it cause I don't have a use for it unless its a better BiS item which will affect my over gear. (For example I may take a piece with more spirit to make up for changing out a non spirit item) Guess what we are all trying to preform our best at this game and to do that there is going to be Min/Maxing going on.

Point 2 - Off Pieces... Yes they are available with hit but as far as I'm concerned spirit provides a greater benefit all around (not just for using it in resto) Am i wrong here? I know spirit regens mana and is a staple for healers, one thing I'm not certain about is how it affects Boomkin in combat, does spirit help with regen at any level in combat for Boomkin?
I don't really run into mana issues so its not a problem, but if it helps even a little bit with our regen in combat then throw all arguments about being able to take hit over spirit out the window because even at hit cap it will still be beneficial to us.

Conclusion - Yes we will hit cap with gear and yes there are off pieces that are beneficial to our "pure dps" gear but, with out doing any official number crunching it doesn't look very easy to hit cap just off heroic gear. Which brings us to raid gear (see point 1 on how I feel about healers) everybody has a job in a raid and as far as I'm concerned if you do your job your entitled to roll on gear. Even with raid gear its going to take some gear planning to figure out what should be our items for "pure dps" items and what items we are going to need before we can replace those items. The point that there should be separate gear is just asinine you do realize it will essentially make getting your spirit gear 2x if not more hard to collect. Its also not even a viable option unless Blizz implements lock outs on gear based on specs, which would only piss people off cause they could never roll for off spec items even if nobody needed them. Re-evaluate the situation healers and adjust accordingly.

So I just looked at my armory and it says 2427 hit so maybe I am hit capped all ready .... yea i might have been looking at melee hit lawl but still my points are all still valid.

So it turns out I am indeed dumb lawl.... I must have been looking at the wrong one the whole time good new every body I'm gonna go reforge so I only have to roll on BiS items