Why "Let them die" Isn't An Acceptable Answer

[thundercles]

Actually this is a widely used political tactic, to take an argument to its extreme to show its true implications.

I feel like most politicians are trolling us anyway. HA!

[rogueMatthias]

If its a tanks right to be able to let people die, does dps have thie right to sit down and have a cup of tea mid fight if the tank insists on tanking the boss in the middle of a fire/green glowng ring of death?

Word of warning if a tank ever tries this on me, if i ever forget to kick il always remember to vanish

[Paladinwtf]

I can't let people die, I try... I WANT them to die, but I automatically Heal. I have yet to wipe on a Guild Run on ANY Heroic Dungeon.

When I pug... I just flex my e-peen by showing them amazing Heals and being all cocky and conceited in Party Chat. If they complain, I let them die and leave, then I go BG for 30 minues... that's unless they kick me.

[Excellent]

The whole LFD tool is a slippery slope. You can't go into it assuming 100% of the random people you are grouped with will know everything there is about every encounter in the dungeon, or anything about doing dungeons at all for that matter. The idea is to work together as a group. You have to communicate with your team.

If you establish a rapport with your group from the get-go and show a willingness to work with everyone, most the time you are in for a smooth run and most importantly, a rewarding experience.

If you go into all your dungeons with the attitude that you are god's gift to dungeons and everyone better know everything and be perfect, your group may fall apart after 2 wipes on trash. And its not necessarily because everyone in the group sucks... its because no one in the group was prepared to tolerate eachother's mistakes.

9 times out of 10, if you whisper to someone about an important aspect of the dungeon (CC, don't stand in green stuff, etc..) as opposed to calling them out for being a nub in /p for the whole group to see... everything goes pretty damn smooth.

TL;DR:
Be nice. The game is more fun that way.

[Fortera]

'Let them die' won't solve anything

I'm a tank. I refuse to play anything else because I don't want someone else screwing up leading the group. Every single random I do, someone is fucking up. Doesn't matter what time of day or what dungeon, someone is doing something they know they shouldn't be but think they can get away with. Ret paladin with righteous fury on thinking he can out-tank me, deathknight using death grip with blood presence on.

Half the time, asking them to stop doesn't help because they don't have to listen to anyone. They're tough shit, what do they need you for?
Solution for this? Let them do it. If they think they don't need you and can pull everything, let them. If they die, it's their fault because they pulled the mob and, by doing this, communicated with the rest of the group that they needed no help and intend to take it down solo because they broke the group dynamic and went out of role to pull a Rambo. In my experience, letting them die and telling them why they died has fixed this problem for those particular runs.

And, half the time, telling them they died for making those mistakes doesn't help, so what I like to do is type out emotes like this:
'/me wishes you'd stop pulling/turn pet growl off/turn righteous fury off/turn blood presence off/stop using death grip '

It comes out as a softly written emote in orange rather than actual conversation and every time I've done this, they stopped doing whatever it is they were doing and politely said 'sry.' Works for me every time and avoids confrontation, and gets the group through the dungeon with a straightened posture. No need for rudeness, but if they intend to fuck up your role in the dungeon and possibly get the group killed or cause the run to take longer because they're breaking the group paradigm, let them die once. Anyone who doesn't have this mentality either is not a tank or has not had the misfortune of running into the normal cream of the dungeon finder crowd.

[cococabana]

If its a tanks right to be able to let people die, does dps have thie right to sit down and have a cup of tea mid fight if the tank insists on tanking the boss in the middle of a fire/green glowng ring of death?

If you are a melee dps, then yes. Don't stand in the fire, even if that's where the boss is.

[evan_s]

My compromise, so to speak, is to heal them but continue using my efficient heals and not resort to my expensive heals trying to save them. At this point in the game we simply can't use those expensive heals to save someone from being stupid and this is by design so I am not going to fight it. If I use those heals to save you I will run out of mana. It might not happen this time you stand in stuff or even this fight but it will happen and then things will be worse than just letting you die to the damage you should be avoiding.

[Lansow]

No you just havent heard them say it much, I can get my mana back on my own, thats not to say I didnt OOM because someone wasnt interrupting and letting the boss heal itself or not pulling the boss out of a zone that healed it or w/e. Ive actually been so low on hp and mana that for the last 1% all I could do was stay alive. Those were bad groups. Edit this to include groups where the tank doesnt give anyone a chance to get mana between pulls. Even down to tank pulling boss with me at 25% mana etc.

No, I just haven't seen it happen. That doesn't mean it won't, it means I haven't seen it. I said what I meant, and if I misspoke I will correct myself. Thank you.

---------- Post added 2011-01-07 at 01:30 PM ----------

True, healer could have been using big expensive heals b/c the tank was taking too much damage. Hybrid heals are expensive and hard to recover from as dps, i'll admit. But, all this really does is expose a flaw in either the tank or healers gear/playstyle. Either way, someone, or more likely, multiple someones wasn't up to the task on that particular boss attempt. The wipe that ensued was duly earned because of poor play. If the boss is at 2% and all your casters are oom in a heroic, you my friend, are not in a good group.

I don't disagree at all.

[Alfador]

In light of this overwhelming superiority complex healers have. I vow to no longer attempt to save any of them if they get aggro. That elemental headed for you wont be banished, I need to mash my BOMB button. I will not shadowfury rogue adds for the tank or fear strays. See how this works out, should be alot easier. Not to mention I will save singe magic for me only. loooooool

So your solution to healers punishing you for being bad at your job is to be even worse at your job. Brilliant plan.

[Vegos]

So your solution to healers punishing you for being bad at your job is to be even worse at your job. Brilliant plan.

Which part of "catching stray mobs the tank missed" makes a DPS bad at their job?

[Autumnflare]

I'd just like to come back with a healer's view in answer to the original poster.

As a healer in an instance run, my primary job is to keep the tank alive. If the tank dies, under most circumstances particularly boss fights, it's a wipe. Blizzard have nerfed healing to a degree where the healer can't just spam healing spells because their gear is good enough to regen mana before they ever get really low, which means healers have to make a conscious choice, and that choice is "how long can I break off healing the tank in order to heal DPS, and how much mana do I dare risk healing DPS that might have me run out for healing the tank."

Those are very important questions, because the fate of the entire group rests on getting the balance of the answers right. Speaking from experience, I will spare all the time I can for DPS PROVIDED they're not doing something completely stupid, such as standing in an AoE. If they move out of the AoE, then I'll try to heal them, but healing used on someone who continues to stand in an AoE is literally wasted, because the tank's still getting hit but the AoE often does as much damage if not more than nerfed HoT spells.

Plus, there is NO excuse when there are addons such as GTFO (which IMHO should be mandatory for competent dungeoneers and raiders) that sound loud, obtrusive claxons to warn you if you're standing in AoEs. Granted, some people might not have the graphics settings up high enough to see AoEs - I have on occasion had that problem myself - but there's still no excuse for standing in them and not moving when there are audible warning addons readily available.

A lot of the time it's a much greyer area than just "letting" someone die, even though the party that dies often rages at the healer without considering what they did that contributed to their own death. Blizzard themselves have said that being a healbot that can outheal the heaviest damage isn't challenging, and they want each role to be challenging. Where a lot of DPS is concerned, they are still the combat role that hasn't caught on to the fact that they have to do more than get in range and spam their favorite damage rotation; a lot of them haven't realized that many of the more obscure fight mechanics are there to make DPS lives more challenging, and when the healer isn't there or doesn't bother to keep them alive and they're doing something stupid, they blame the healer not look at their own actions.

I'm no supporter of the "lol" factor that supposedly exists for letting people who make utterly stupid mistakes die for their mistakes - but if it's them or the tank, and the tank is doing his/her job correctly... I'll be healing the tank every time, no matter how often the DPS dies.

[Eisenhorne]

Which part of "catching stray mobs the tank missed" makes a DPS bad at their job?

I believe that if you're doing your job, you shouldn't have a problem with the "let them die" mentality. Protecting a healer is not the same thing as standing in fire or tanking a cleave or dancing in the void zone. In the situation you described, I would assume the healer would heal you while the tank picked it up. It is not like you were "lol i does damage!!!! derp" and pulled threat. You doing your job makes us doing our job easier. Bads doing their "job" bad makes our job more difficult. There is a difference. In the case you describe, your actions would be appreciated. In the case where "let them die" comes into play, your actions would not be appreciated, and your actions would result in your death.

[Deleted]

-snip-

1,2,3,4,5: I have a guild so that isn't a problem.
I don't do randoms anymore (and even if I would it would be a guild group) on my main because I find it a waste of time and I can get my gear through raiding easy enough. I'm not there to finish the dungeon, I'm there to get what I can before it all explodes, or with a decent group actually get to the end. If they kick me I can que again, problem solved.

Tho I do randoms on alts and I let people die every time. The end reward of a dungeon isn't worth me stressing myself over people that are simply retarded. If you can not understand the simple fact: "move out of stuff that hurts you and usually is bright colored on the floor" but I am sorry, you have issues in real life that you have to adress. People that die in dungeons are usually the guys that quit school and get grades for what they do instead of what they know. I challenge you to prove that a person who can't move from a fire can understand the Banach-Tarski paradox or atomic physics (things I did in highschool).
That beeing said I will let you die, not ress you and continue my dungeon while stepping on your corpse.

[Deleted]

When we talk about a poor player i (as a healer) would never let em die because they "deserve" to die just because they are bad. mostly it is because they take dmg from standing in the fire and then i wont waste my mana on them.

But when we are talking about jerks... I just like seeing em rage. People should be nice to their fellow gamers and if they are not they die :P

So i think thos 5 steps are pretty unnessecery :P the only thing you tell med is that you are one of thos Jerks, ingnorant or poor players :P

[stuperdude]

I'm no supporter of the "lol" factor that supposedly exists for letting people who make utterly stupid mistakes die for their mistakes - but if it's them or the tank, and the tank is doing his/her job correctly... I'll be healing the tank every time, no matter how often the DPS dies.

I am 100% completely with you on this! The thread has basically completely derailed. All my original point was is that even in a QQ post there's the possibility for coming up with constructive ways to help people deal with troublesome players. Some people have mentioned using whispers and emotes as forms of communication rather than raging in chat or naming and shaming. These are both good points that are much more preferable than the typical "let them die" response that I see posted all too often in these forums.

[SobeBauxite]

When I heal an instance I let people die if they stand in fire because we'll fail the instance if I don't. I don't have the mana to heal stupidity anymore. It's not even about them learning, it's an issue of completing the dungeon. Get used to healers letting you die if you do stupid things, because good healers recognize a waste of mana when they see it, and the healing environment now doesn't let us make up for your stupidity like we could in wrath.

[Bender]

When I tank I play with healers from my guild and when I heal I play with tanks from my guild. We have a lot of power in this regard. I try to keep people alive for the first 1-2 times, on most hc mechanics you'll die if you stand in it more than a few seconds. I'll let them know that they need to move out of crap, and then if doesn't get better I stop healing them altogether.

[stuperdude]

1,2,3,4,5: I have a guild so that isn't a problem.
I don't do randoms anymore (and even if I would it would be a guild group) on my main because I find it a waste of time and I can get my gear through raiding easy enough. I'm not there to finish the dungeon, I'm there to get what I can before it all explodes, or with a decent group actually get to the end. If they kick me I can que again, problem solved.

Tho I do randoms on alts and I let people die every time. The end reward of a dungeon isn't worth me stressing myself over people that are simply retarded. If you can not understand the simple fact: "move out of stuff that hurts you and usually is bright colored on the floor" but I am sorry, you have issues in real life that you have to adress. People that die in dungeons are usually the guys that quit school and get grades for what they do instead of what they know. I challenge you to prove that a person who can't move from a fire can understand the Banach-Tarski paradox or atomic physics (things I did in highschool).
That beeing said I will let you die, not ress you and continue my dungeon while stepping on your corpse.

You sir, have missed the point!

[Eisenhorne]

I'd just like to come back with a healer's view in answer to the original poster.

As a healer in an instance run, my primary job is to keep the tank alive. If the tank dies, under most circumstances particularly boss fights, it's a wipe. Blizzard have nerfed healing to a degree where the healer can't just spam healing spells because their gear is good enough to regen mana before they ever get really low, which means healers have to make a conscious choice, and that choice is "how long can I break off healing the tank in order to heal DPS, and how much mana do I dare risk healing DPS that might have me run out for healing the tank."

Those are very important questions, because the fate of the entire group rests on getting the balance of the answers right. Speaking from experience, I will spare all the time I can for DPS PROVIDED they're not doing something completely stupid, such as standing in an AoE. If they move out of the AoE, then I'll try to heal them, but healing used on someone who continues to stand in an AoE is literally wasted, because the tank's still getting hit but the AoE often does as much damage if not more than nerfed HoT spells.

Plus, there is NO excuse when there are addons such as GTFO (which IMHO should be mandatory for competent dungeoneers and raiders) that sound loud, obtrusive claxons to warn you if you're standing in AoEs. Granted, some people might not have the graphics settings up high enough to see AoEs - I have on occasion had that problem myself - but there's still no excuse for standing in them and not moving when there are audible warning addons readily available.

A lot of the time it's a much greyer area than just "letting" someone die, even though the party that dies often rages at the healer without considering what they did that contributed to their own death. Blizzard themselves have said that being a healbot that can outheal the heaviest damage isn't challenging, and they want each role to be challenging. Where a lot of DPS is concerned, they are still the combat role that hasn't caught on to the fact that they have to do more than get in range and spam their favorite damage rotation; a lot of them haven't realized that many of the more obscure fight mechanics are there to make DPS lives more challenging, and when the healer isn't there or doesn't bother to keep them alive and they're doing something stupid, they blame the healer not look at their own actions.

I'm no supporter of the "lol" factor that supposedly exists for letting people who make utterly stupid mistakes die for their mistakes - but if it's them or the tank, and the tank is doing his/her job correctly... I'll be healing the tank every time, no matter how often the DPS dies.

This is exactly what is intended. They have made tanking more interactive, and made healing more challenging. No longer is it prayer of mending that can keep up a group while the priest bounces around, or a jumping tree that drops hots like a god that can ensure success. A certain lvl of ability along with competent teamwork is now required. That teamwork extends to the entire party. The healer keeps the tank alive, who keeps the dps alive by keeping the bad people from touching them (show me on the doll...).

It is NOT the job of the healer to keep someone alive in fire/void/cleaves
It IS the job of the healer to keep people alive through unavoidable encounter-based damage.
It IS the job of the healer to keep the tank alive.

It is NOT the job of the tank to continually re-taunt a mob that a dpser decides they should solo and that is outside of the mark order.
It IS the job of the tank to have control of the mobs he tanks within reason (healers should be tanking, and dps should be able to dps on the assigned target without fear of pulling).
It IS the job of the tank to use their cd's and abilities to make healing them easier.
It IS the job of the tank to control the pack (outline CC, position properly, react to unexpected situations quickly).

It is NOT the job of the DPS to LOLPEWPEWPEW
It IS the job of the DPS to kill the assigned mobs, in order, in a timely fashion.
It IS the job of the DPS to protect the healer (if the tank is incapable of doing so).

Team work is the key to dungeons and raids, and excelling at your job involves being aware of the team and covering up the failings of others in order to succeed. If letting someone die in order for the team, as a whole, to succeed, then that is what should be done. That is the obvious choice. If you are vindictive because they are riding your threat (as a tank), then learn to do your job better, and/or get better gear.

Wrath Babies, do not understand some of these concepts yet. They were raised in the era of "Lol I can heal anything!" Those days are gone. Fix your mistakes. React faster. Do better.

In Vanilla/BC there was a saying:

"Healer dies, Tank's fault. Tank dies, Healer's fault. DPS dies, their own fault [within reason]."

[stuperdude]

Post has de-railed: My initial point is just that telling someone to let a troublesome party member die isn't nearly as constructive as any other response you can give. Yes, a tank/heals occasionally need to let someone die to benefit the party. My point was NEVER that the job of tank/heals is to keep idiots alive no matter what. My point is that "let them die lulz" is an inane stance to take even in QQ threads when methods that have worked for you in the past are more than likely both more civil and will result in player development over time. The End.