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  1. #1

    Why the Frost-PvE nerf? :(

    Patch 4.0.6 Notes Update:

    * Deep Freeze damage done has been reduced by 20%.
    * Fingers of Frost can no longer be dispelled and now also increases Ice Lance damage by 15%.
    * Frost Specialization now only grants 2 base points of mastery (instead of 8), reducing all Frost damage to frozen targets by 15% from previous values. However, Frost Specialization now increases base Frostbolt damage by 15%.



    If this changes go live, it would affect Raid Frost PvE like that:
    Frostbolt: +15% Dmg
    Lance: +/- 0% Dmg
    DeepFreeze: -20% base Dmg und -15% Dmg durch Mastery
    Frostfirebolt / Ignite: -15% Dmg durch Mastery

    Approximate PvE damage numbers (prepatch):
    Frostbolt: 9k
    Deepfreeze: 100k
    Lance: 30k
    Frostfirebolt: 40k
    Ignite: 16k
    (I took the numbers from my own Frost Raid experience)

    Approximate PvE damage numbers (after the patch):
    Frostbolt: 10350 (+1350 Dmg)
    Deepfreeze: 68000 (-32k)
    Lance: 30k (+/- 0)
    Frostfirebolt: 34k (-6k)
    Ignite: 13,6k (-2,4k)

    I this calculation I assume that the mage got 33,34% crit raidbuffed (soft crit cap for frost mages) and cause of that lance, frostfirebolt and deepfreeze will always crit.
    In detail frostbolt would also benefit a bit more from the 15% (in numbers) when adding the 33,34% crit in his calculation aswell. Would look then something like that:
    ~ 1350 * 33,34 = ~ 1,8k

    Nevertheless I have really no idea how the frostbolt damage buff should at least hold the mage dps while nerfing deepfreeze and frostfirebolt or even increase it.

    Even if I give each frostbolt about ~2k more damage I'd need 16 frostbolts to get the damage I am missing alone from deepfreeze. Depending on the haste of the mage this means 20-25 seconds frostbolt spam. In fact (cause you are also using lance / frostfire bolt) you will not even be able to deal enough damage through frostbolt to compensate the deepfreeze nerf in 30 seconds (until the next deepfreeze is up again).

    Sorry, maybe I am totally missing something but in my opinion this is real Frost-PvE nerf for no reason. (you know, frost mages were not really on the top of dps meters )

  2. #2
    Agreed, its difficult to understand why Frost PvE has been affected by what should have been PvP only nerfs.

    I can only say that perhaps some additional patches notes will be incoming in subsequent weeks.

  3. #3
    100k Deep Freezes is to bursty and bad dps. It's to try and smooth out the damage of Frost mages. The buff to Frostbolt "should" make it so Frost keeps up, thought not sure on how FFB will be affected. Give it time I doubt these are the last changes we will see before the patch is done.
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  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    No, you're right. And I expect that the deep freeze part will be revised, as there's no way this should go live. We're either missing something, which is not likely, or the developers are high out of their minds right now.



    I pulled this up from WoL, and it's quite obviously a nerf even without accounting for ignite. There's no way the changes are done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Araya View Post
    100k Deep Freezes is to bursty and bad dps. It's to try and smooth out the damage of Frost mages. The buff to Frostbolt "should" make it so Frost keeps up, thought not sure on how FFB will be affected. Give it time I doubt these are the last changes we will see before the patch is done.
    It's not bad DPS, it's just bursty which is very useful, although hard on tanks. I could see some reasoning behind lowering the burst and smoothing out our DPS curve, but this doesn't do it.
    Last edited by Kuni Zyrekai; 2011-01-12 at 09:06 AM.

  5. #5
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    I predict glyph changes for Frost, then. IMO Frostbolt Deepfreeze and Icelance.

    EDIT: To clarify, I mean I predict changes to what will be the best glyphs for PVE dps.

    On another note, with a buff to icelance+FOF damage, might this even lead to ignoring Brain Freeze procs in favour of icelance? Might it even mean not speccing into Brain Freeze?
    Last edited by mmoc041e02a7c0; 2011-01-12 at 09:26 AM. Reason: clarification

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by zackkaufen View Post
    I predict glyph changes for Frost, then. IMO Frostbolt Deepfreeze and Icelance.

    EDIT: To clarify, I mean I predict changes to what will be the best glyphs for PVE dps.

    On another note, with a buff to icelance+FOF damage, might this even lead to ignoring Brain Freeze procs in favour of icelance? Might it even mean not speccing into Brain Freeze?
    What buff to ice lance? There is no buff to ice lance.

    As long as frostfire bolt+ignite damage is higher than ice lance, we'll still spec for it. There's no real options to dump the points either.

  7. #7
    100k Deep Freezes is to bursty and bad dps...
    100k damage every 30 seconds results in 3,3k dps (and that for clicking a single button in 30 seconds) - for me as a mage this is bursty but definitly not bad dps
    In my opinion the "burst" is the only big fafour frost currently has against fire (and I totally refuse to specc fire ._.). Cause of this reason Frost is better in some PvE Situations then Fire like when you have to nuke stun immune adds or deal massive amount of damage in a short period of time (cause of a 100% dmg buff for example).

    EDIT:

    What buff to ice lance? There is no buff to ice lance.
    Well in detail there is, but it's only fixing the mastery nerf :P

    As long as frostfire bolt+ignite damage is higher than ice lance, we'll still spec for it. There's no real options to dump the points either.
    I guess what he ment was that, lance (glyphed) + ffb (unglyphed) could maybe be better then ffb (glyphed). In other words spending 1 fof procc and a brainfreeze procc in lance & ffb instead of only one ffb. But I think I have to agree with you that it would be nonsense since you are also using an additional global cooldown for that.
    Last edited by Myrande; 2011-01-12 at 09:46 AM.

  8. #8
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    As long as frostfire bolt+ignite damage is higher than ice lance, we'll still spec for it. There's no real options to dump the points either.
    /agree
    But even if IL will bring higher DPS in PvE-situations with FoF than FFB+Ignite, you would stil want to skill BF and use the free FFB without FoF, can't see a dps-loss in the use of one global.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Firstly, Deep freeze does not suffer -35% damage. The base damage gets lowered by 20%, then the mastery increase lose 15%. This means that assuming no mastery from gear;
    627074 damage.
    at 10 extra mastery from gear (which is propably closer to the truth);
    648476 damage.

    Secondly, for ice lance, changes are cumulative, not additive (I hope I got that right way around).
    Assuming 0 extra mastery;
    797015 damage
    and at 10 extra mastery;
    811506 damage

    Frostfire bolt should always be fired with FoF, os there you are correct. Ignite damage is proportional to the ffb damage, and since we can assume the mage in question to be crit soft capped, it is simpliest to say ignite loses 15% as well, losing 22121 damage. This brings the grand total to 3863469, or 97.8% of the original. Obviously, the higher your mastery, the less you will lose from this, and at a certain point in your mastery (ahich will be quite high, though) this will turn out to be a buff.
    Do also note that elemental damage is not present and as such the actual percentage change will be even lower. That, and a deep freeze of 0 damage... if he actually hit with that thing, the difference would, again, be even lower.
    These results are based on a single sample anyway. Simcraft simulations so far show this as an dps increase across the board. I suggest you continue following the topic at http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t110339-..._cataclysm/p2/
    They actually know their math there.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by kivipää View Post
    Firstly, Deep freeze does not suffer -35% damage. The base damage gets lowered by 20%, then the mastery increase lose 15%. This means that assuming no mastery from gear;
    627074 damage.
    at 10 extra mastery from gear (which is propably closer to the truth);
    648476 damage.

    Secondly, for ice lance, changes are cumulative, not additive (I hope I got that right way around).
    Assuming 0 extra mastery;
    797015 damage
    and at 10 extra mastery;
    811506 damage

    Frostfire bolt should always be fired with FoF, os there you are correct. Ignite damage is proportional to the ffb damage, and since we can assume the mage in question to be crit soft capped, it is simpliest to say ignite loses 15% as well, losing 22121 damage. This brings the grand total to 3863469, or 97.8% of the original. Obviously, the higher your mastery, the less you will lose from this, and at a certain point in your mastery (ahich will be quite high, though) this will turn out to be a buff.
    Do also note that elemental damage is not present and as such the actual percentage change will be even lower. That, and a deep freeze of 0 damage... if he actually hit with that thing, the difference would, again, be even lower.
    These results are based on a single sample anyway. Simcraft simulations so far show this as an dps increase across the board. I suggest you continue following the topic at http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t110339-..._cataclysm/p2/
    They actually know their math there.
    Alright here we go.

    Firstly, there is no mention other than MMO's datamined changes that it is only base damage nerfed. The offical patch notes state a flat 20% damage reduction to deep freeze, and as we've all seen with this, it USUALLY comes along with the same coefficient nerf as base damage nerf reported on MMO. Also noted by Lhiv in that very thread.

    Secondly, you're right. I did do that wrong, but the results when we're talking about the same gear before and after are fairly close. Assuming your math is correct, this should be about 20k extra damage, nearly on par with the DMC:V proc shown there. EDIT: Which it's not. It's -2.25%, not +2.25%.

    The reason I didn't bother worrying about ignite's damage was entirely because of frostfire orb's crits and I didn't want to spend the time splitting them. Deep freeze of 0 damage is just the immune part of the spell. It shows up in WoL, shows up in Recount, shows up everywhere. They're technically two different spells, the stun and the damage, so they'll both show up.

    Yes, indeed it is a small sample of one attempt at one boss, which is why it's showing around 5% instead of the 2% loss that has been reported. I suggest you keep up with EJ, as Lhiv has finished initial SimC testing hours ago.

    Last edited by Kuni Zyrekai; 2011-01-12 at 11:59 AM.

  11. #11
    off topic: What's that guys spec look like lol, i've had like 5 frost builds in a week and still dunno why i do less dps in it then fire. ><

    on topic: the mastery and deep freeze nerf seems a bit harsh for frost. I dont really raid frost cuz im not too keen on the playstyle; but the deep freeze + ffb procs + omg slows are great in gb. I can usually solo 1.5 adds on the last boss cuz of it. doing some of the math just on the training dummy i can't see how a 15% dmg increase to Frostbolt will make up for the mastery nerf. Unless its a spec balance; if the raises on fire/arc and the nerf to frost "evens out the overal dps output" ... ><

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarioInfinity View Post
    off topic: What's that guys spec look like lol, i've had like 5 frost builds in a week and still dunno why i do less dps in it then fire. ><

    on topic: the mastery and deep freeze nerf seems a bit harsh for frost. I dont really raid frost cuz im not too keen on the playstyle; but the deep freeze + ffb procs + omg slows are great in gb. I can usually solo 1.5 adds on the last boss cuz of it. doing some of the math just on the training dummy i can't see how a 15% dmg increase to Frostbolt will make up for the mastery nerf. Unless its a spec balance; if the raises on fire/arc and the nerf to frost "evens out the overal dps output" ... ><
    First part, I couldn't say, you didn't link anything. Fire is better DPS though.

    Second part, even if that was the goal, it doesn't make sense. Why push first place higher, second lower, third higher? It's a nerf and I'm sure there's going to be something to change for frost in the next few days.

  13. #13
    If my memory serves me correctly I read somewhere that they wanted to buff PvE Frost, not nerf it. So either they did their math right and this is overall a buff, or they made a major screwup somewhere and this proves to be a nerf.

    Either way the nerf to DF makes me a bit sad for two reasons. It provides the mage with a nice way to put out some good burst when needed, and secondly it doesent effect PvP (since no player is permanently immune to freezes). Sure its annoying for tanks when its used at the start of a pull, but that's what we have mirror images for.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordoran View Post
    If my memory serves me correctly I read somewhere that they wanted to buff PvE Frost, not nerf it. So either they did their math right and this is overall a buff, or they made a major screwup somewhere and this proves to be a nerf.

    Either way the nerf to DF makes me a bit sad for two reasons. It provides the mage with a nice way to put out some good burst when needed, and secondly it doesent effect PvP (since no player is permanently immune to freezes). Sure its annoying for tanks when its used at the start of a pull, but that's what we have mirror images for.
    I'm still saying we're missing part of their plan. There's no way they'd nerf a spec below fire while buffing fire at the same time, and preach about making the specs equal. The simulations have been done, this is about a 2% nerf while the other two got about 5% increase each. It doesn't add up and I think there's something big coming, or a revert to some of these changes.

  15. #15
    Yes, indeed it is a small sample of one attempt at one boss, which is why it's showing around 5% instead of the 2% loss that has been reported. I suggest you keep up with EJ, as Lhiv has finished initial SimC testing hours ago.
    Sorry, I know that these guys know what they are doing but I can't really believe that frost nerf moves arround such small numbers. In my opinion it has to be much more.
    Alone the fact (I mentioned it in my first post) that the damage lost from deepfreeze is greater then the benefit from frostbolt. In my opinion that's rather easy to calculate.

    Firstly, Deep freeze does not suffer -35% damage. The base damage gets lowered by 20%, then the mastery increase lose 15%. This means that assuming no mastery from gear
    Yeah it doesn't. Caus of this:
    100 * 0,8 (20% dmg nerf) = 80 *0,85 (15% mastery nerf) = 68% so it's - 32% dmg

    And regarding the -20% "base" damage, here are the offical patch nodes:

    * Deep Freeze damage done has been reduced by 20%.
    * Fingers of Frost can no longer be dispelled and now also increases Ice Lance damage by 15%.
    * Frost Specialization now only grants 2 base points of mastery (instead of 8), reducing all Frost damage to frozen targets by 15% from previous values. However, Frost Specialization now increases base Frostbolt damage by 15%.

    Source: blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/149669/public-test-realm-patch-406-notes-updated-jan-11

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrande View Post
    Sorry, I know that these guys know what they are doing but I can't really believe that frost nerf moves arround such small numbers. In my opinion it has to be much more.
    Well it's not that unreal if you consider that the frostbolt buff, in and of itself, was a fairly large buff. That alone might have pushed us over where fire is in live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrande View Post
    Yeah it doesn't. Caus of this:
    100 * 0,8 (20% dmg nerf) = 80 *0,85 (15% mastery nerf) = 68% so it's - 32% dmg
    Close enough. The ice lance deal is a 2.25% nerf as well. Add in me not calculating ignite on the screenshot, it's all within a small margin of error that still illustrates the point I was trying to make: we were nerfed, here's a basic idea of why, stop saying it's a buff.

    Had I cared to make it accurate I would have included the water elemental, mirror images, dug around and found how much of ignite belonged to FFB, how much of FFB ignites were munched, and used precise math instead of an approximation for something I whipped up in a minute and a half. At any rate, the person I was replying to had fundamental flaws in their argument.

  17. #17
    btw. when will the t2 bonus of our 359ilvl set be changed (talking about Frost)? Blizzard can't be serious about this one

  18. #18

    So we are back to the way it's been before

    If this is true then we will be back to Frost not being viewed as viable for Raiding. It would be the leveling and PVP Spec it's been before.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Alright here we go.

    Firstly, there is no mention other than MMO's datamined changes that it is only base damage nerfed. The offical patch notes state a flat 20% damage reduction to deep freeze, and as we've all seen with this, it USUALLY comes along with the same coefficient nerf as base damage nerf reported on MMO. Also noted by Lhiv in that very thread.

    Secondly, you're right. I did do that wrong, but the results when we're talking about the same gear before and after are fairly close. Assuming your math is correct, this should be about 20k extra damage, nearly on par with the DMC:V proc shown there. EDIT: Which it's not. It's -2.25%, not +2.25%.

    The reason I didn't bother worrying about ignite's damage was entirely because of frostfire orb's crits and I didn't want to spend the time splitting them. Deep freeze of 0 damage is just the immune part of the spell. It shows up in WoL, shows up in Recount, shows up everywhere. They're technically two different spells, the stun and the damage, so they'll both show up.

    Yes, indeed it is a small sample of one attempt at one boss, which is why it's showing around 5% instead of the 2% loss that has been reported. I suggest you keep up with EJ, as Lhiv has finished initial SimC testing hours ago.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordoran View Post
    If my memory serves me correctly I read somewhere that they wanted to buff PvE Frost, not nerf it. So either they did their math right and this is overall a buff, or they made a major screwup somewhere and this proves to be a nerf.

    You're correct.

    Blizzard did say Mage damage was low and would be corrected. Instead, they did it backwards.

    This is nothing new, it seems like they just can't stop messing around with players spells and damage output. They raise then they lower, raise then lower all over again.

  20. #20
    1. Changes are not done on the PTR, there could easily be changes to any number of things for mages.
    2. Name another spell that hits as hard as deep freeze in pve. Kill shot maybe? I bet it doesn't even hit as hard, and you only get a few per boss off. Fact is this spell was too much burst, so they are shifting some of its dmg to other spells to make dmg more consistent.

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