New Unholy talent for DKs, "Death's Advance."

[TeeZed]

Bad dks had mobility issues, bad dks.

Bad posters have intelligence issues, bad posters.

[Drakks]

I personally do not understand this addition at all. Chains of Ice can no longer be dispelled, and by staying in Unholy presence, a Death Knight runs as fast as any other player does with speed increasing talents/gems/enchants, with the exception of a druid in cat form(as feral) or in travel form.

Quick clarification -- and Unholy DK can do this, as it's a t4 talent. Also: DKs lack a gap closer on a reasonable CD. If snared, they can snare.. but can be kited effectively for 25 seconds between Death Grips, assuming the DK talented Death Grip. We can ranged snare, which is nice, assuming we aren't also snared -- also, chains takes a primary damage rune. People that understand the rune system can kite DKs fairly effectively.

They have Death Grip, allowing them to bring an enemy closer to them that is attempting to kite/run away from them, along with a ghoul stun/charge(if empowered) to give themselves a few seconds to close some distance.

Outside of deathgrip, ghoul stun requires that the gap be closed on foot. If they are snared, this often won't happen.

Add in the fact that their diseases and pets(ghoul/gargoyle) do an extreme amount of damage, meaning they themselves don't actually NEED to be in melee range to continue to do damage.

Diseases and pets make up a percentage of damage. Pets can be CC'd, and diseases in and of themselves are just an annoyance. The burst a Dk does will be from runic power (which requires strikes to hit to generate, strikes require melee range), or their tree specific strikes (requires melee range). DKs need a better gap closer, not sure this one is it.. but it's what we currently have on the drawing board.

[Kelekona]

Bad dks had mobility issues, bad dks.

Thank you for saying that and saving me the time of having to.

[Museigen]

Rawr I hate DKs, I think they got a buff so I will irrationally be angry and say diseases do a lot of damage.

On topic, the ability barely helps so you can stop your crying. As mentioned earlier we already had desecration to stay on a target, it's getting to the target after a peel which is the problem. This change does very little to prevent that problem. About the only thing I see it helping with is after a root/stun where you've regenerated your first unholy rune you could use Death and Decay to buy a few more seconds of 100% speed. Just don't death coil or you might get runic corruption and cut those few seconds in half? lol anti-synergy : /

[Roose]

Rawr I hate DKs, I think they got a buff so I will irrationally be angry and say diseases do a lot of damage.

On topic, the ability barely helps so you can stop your crying. As mentioned earlier we already had desecration to stay on a target, it's getting to the target after a peel which is the problem. This change does very little to prevent that problem. About the only thing I see it helping with is after a root/stun where you've regenerated your first unholy rune you could use Death and Decay to buy a few more seconds of 100% speed. Just don't death coil or you might get runic corruption and cut those few seconds in half? lol anti-synergy : /

lol, RE throwing off death's advance a distinct possibility. As mentioned, it would make much more sense if it was active when runes are off CD. As is, I would still prefer it over the change to chillbains.

[Gungtah]

Bad posters have intelligence issues, bad posters.

Very classy.

Too bad Valrath is kicking ass right now on BG9, why are the other DKs so bad they need buffs?

[Seabass123]

I remember Blizzard saying something about Blizzard wanting to make 2 handed weapons more appealing to Unholy DKs. To me, that talent addition was a way to do that without adding a direct 2-handed talent. With the addition of that talent (which in my opinion is useful to spec into), its a bit annoying to spec into frost so I can get Nerves of Cold Steel.
In addition, DKs did have a small amount of mobility issue. However, Mages never seemed to be a huge problem. Dark Simulacrum was an amazing spell to use if one could pop it at the right time (Blink, Frost Nova, etc), Strangulate/Magic Shell/Mind Freeze for obvious reasons, Dark Grip/Chains of Ice, etc etc. And now that Icebound Fortitude removes stuns and makes one immune to stuns is fantastic; I felt that was the biggest mobility issue of DKs.

[Confessor Kahlan]

About the only thing I see it helping with is after a root/stun where you've regenerated your first unholy rune you could use Death and Decay to buy a few more seconds of 100% speed.

I'm glad someone else was smart enough to suggest this, I made sure to check before I posted it.

As to the talent, yes dks have had mobility problems ever since about the middle of wrath. If you've ever tried to kill a hunter, mage, or resto druid. You'd know what we are referring to. This talent, as well as the change in frost that will let chains root for 3 sec, will help quite a bit with mobility.

[Drakks]

Very classy.

Too bad Valrath is kicking ass right now on BG9, why are the other DKs so bad they need buffs?

Kicking ass in 3s is a function of comp, and there aren't many comps that use DKs that you couldn't replace them with an equally skilled warrior and do exactly the same.

Doing fine, and needing some mobility work are not mutually exclusive attributes. Dks could use some help in regards to mobility, and it's something most dks have been asking to be looked at for a while. You can pretend this is "bad" if you like, but it just shows you for the wow-board troll that you are.

---------- Post added 2011-01-13 at 04:34 PM ----------

I'm glad someone else was smart enough to suggest this, I made sure to check before I posted it.

As to the talent, yes dks have had mobility problems ever since about the middle of wrath. If you've ever tried to kill a hunter, mage, or resto druid. You'd know what we are referring to. This talent, as well as the change in frost that will let chains root for 3 sec, will help quite a bit with mobility.

I dont like the chillbains change, honestly.

My problem isnt that I can't apply a snare, it's that as frost I'm permanently snared myself with my only gap closer being DG on a 25 second CD. Seems to me descrated ground should cause the root, and the rune-use based snare removal should've gone to frost.

[Deleted]

I'm glad someone else was smart enough to suggest this, I made sure to check before I posted it.

I just thought it was obvious enough to not have to mention it. You could also DT but, that has its own drawbacks because it requires DC; it is in no way reliably available either. (Edit: You could use AMZ as well.)

What do you do while being kited now? CoI and throw a DC out. As others have pointed out to you, you now can't throw out that DC in case it gives RE, slashing your snare immunity time. So we give up our ranged damage for a measly couple of seconds snare immunity, not a good deal.



As for the frost change, again it hasn't been thought through at all. It promotes the frost DK being used as a root/support role at the expense of all his damage. Neither does the Frost DK have the survivability to fulfill a reliable support position in a comp.

CoI doesn't fit in frosts reportoire of PvP moves anyway, forcing it in like this doesn't help at all.

You realise that in the next patch frost DKs will have five moves requiring a frost rune, all of which are used often and have important PvP uses; not forgetting to mention that two of the abilties require two runes.

HB for damage, snare and FF. IT for FF, snare and damage, if you want to protect some nearby CC. Obl for nuke on clothies. CoI for rooting while at range and support rooting/peeling. DS for heals.

Frost don't even get lots of Death Runes like UH.

Using DS will also completely remove the Frost from doing any damage at all; don't have a pet to continue doing damage like UH or a large number of Death Runes guaranteeing utility.

Frost also has serious decisions to make about its major glyphs. Strang, DG, AMS, Hungering Cold, DS and CoI. Way too many PvP required glyphs to choose from.

If these changes go through Frost will not be able to hold a candle to UH in PvP; even with the superfluous and backwards buff to UH that this thread is ostensibly about.

[Kelekona]

I'm glad someone else was smart enough to suggest this, I made sure to check before I posted it.

As to the talent, yes dks have had mobility problems ever since about the middle of wrath. If you've ever tried to kill a hunter, mage, or resto druid. You'd know what we are referring to. This talent, as well as the change in frost that will let chains root for 3 sec, will help quite a bit with mobility.

Everyone melee had issues with catching up to hunters, mages and resto druids.

---------- Post added 2011-01-13 at 08:33 PM ----------

[QUOTE=Drakks;10086319]Kicking ass in 3s is a function of comp, and there aren't many comps that use DKs that you couldn't replace them with an equally skilled warrior and do exactly the same.

Doing fine, and needing some mobility work are not mutually exclusive attributes. Dks could use some help in regards to mobility, and it's something most dks have been asking to be looked at for a while. You can pretend this is "bad" if you like, but it just shows you for the wow-board troll that you are.[COLOR="red"]

---------- Post added 2011-01-13 at 04:34 PM ----------

So it makes me a troll to bring up a topic about a talent that doesn't make sense? You guys feel like you have mobility issues? How about we give you something like Hand of Freedom? Then take away all your slows. Then you can complain about not having slows like a ret paladin. So then we give you a slow, and take away Hand of Freedom. You aren't going to have both. That wouldn't be balanced. A class with all the slows that a DK has will never get an abilitiy to make them immune to slows/snares. Its unnecessary.

[Foibles]

Very classy.

Too bad Valrath is kicking ass right now on BG9, why are the other DKs so bad they need buffs?

A Fury Warrior went Glad in S6, obviously every other Warrior needs to l2p.

[Drakks]

So it makes me a troll to bring up a topic about a talent that doesn't make sense? You guys feel like you have mobility issues? How about we give you something like Hand of Freedom? Then take away all your slows. Then you can complain about not having slows like a ret paladin. So then we give you a slow, and take away Hand of Freedom. You aren't going to have both. That wouldn't be balanced. A class with all the slows that a DK has will never get an abilitiy to make them immune to slows/snares. Its unnecessary.

No, you're a troll for parroting WoW board antics and using poorly constructed arguements as a means to call others bad. Top teir players can play anything and do well, but they pick what they pick to play for a reason. Valrath is doing well because he's a good player, and because of his comp. Basing the class off him is pointless.

Now then, to your second way-off point: it doesn't matter how many snares a class has, if they are never able to move at a speed that allows them to capitolize on that snare. As a frost Dk, I have chillbains (50% snare) and chains, application of either generaly requires a rune I need and does NOT in any way mean I'm in melee range magically. I have DG on a 25 second CD and that IS my gap closer outside of a goblin racial. Given that every class can snare now, it means as a frost dk I'm generally moving at the same, or slower speed as my target (remember, AMS is proactive, not reactive - and does nothing against physical snares being applied anyway). If I have a class that can apply a constant snare on me focusing me, I will never break away generally and just have to rely on quick bursts after DG and my partner.

All melee classes need mobility to operate, save warriors who can chain together disabling attacks.. yet they still have more gap closers then a DK. Everyone moans about death grip.. but in function it has the same effect that other classes have, just a longer CD on it.

Neither the chains-root for frost change, nor the rune change for unholy make any god damned sense -- but both are better then what we currently have.

[mastertroll]

Add in the fact that their diseases and pets(ghoul/gargoyle) do an extreme amount of damage, meaning they themselves don't actually NEED to be in melee range to continue to do damage.
I'm just trying to comprehend the reasoning behind this buff, and what issue it's meant to fix.

i stopped reading there . i mean come on , how can people be so ignorant ?

[XenuMC]

That's what I don't understand. I mean, I don't play a Death Knight, at all, but from PvPing on all of my other characters, It's so damn annoying to actually get away from a DK. I don't see the mobility issues.

The buff was not addressing issues about other people getting away from DK's. It is to fix DK's utter lack of mobility to get AWAY from getting pounded. And DK's can barely catch up to people when they are getting kited, don't kid yourself. Besides I don't see how this change is gonna help. You won't be able to blow your unholy runes if your target is on the other side of the arena/battleground /dancing with you.

[Drakks]

If by extreme you meant maybe 2-3k dps, then yes. An unholy dk at range is extreme like mountain dew.

[Kelekona]

Well it seems the only people that feel like posting are people that have Death Knights, and of course, see nothing wrong with an unneeded buff. But why would you, seeing as it makes an annoying class with an amazing ability to keep people from getting away the ability to make it harder to get away lol. I'm sorry you have issues with Frost mages, Resto druids and Hunters, but so do other classes that have no slows or no way of catching back up.

[Pieterman]

death knights were very peelable and kiteable, even with the powerful slow and gapcloser. This looks powerful but lets just wait and see it play out. Its very likely to get changed into a similar talent.

[Roose]

I dont like the chillbains change, honestly.

My problem isnt that I can't apply a snare, it's that as frost I'm permanently snared myself with my only gap closer being DG on a 25 second CD. Seems to me descrated ground should cause the root, and the rune-use based snare removal should've gone to frost.

I feel ya. All the change to chains does is add a peel when DG is down. It also makes us waste a rune that could have added a snare already and a chunk of damage. How about, whenever you use CoI you remove all movement impairing effects for x duration. Kind of like Master's Call that is triggered by CoI. It would make us sacrifice damage for mobility and is a great solution imo. The effect of CoI would remain at 60%.

What good is a 3 sec root(before DR) when we ourselves are rooted? How does this affect OUR mobility. Death's advance is designed so that when you are on target spamming NS you should be at 100% uptime not allowing anyone to peel you with roots or snares. In other words, they pretty much nerfed then buffed unholy NS because they will be able to keep it up at all times barring poly or cyclone.

Frost gets a 3 sec root at the cost of using a HB and unholy gets a license to kill at the cost of nothing.

[DeathKnight Guy]

Its kind of like nearly every class has something with makes the move more efficient, Warrior Charge, Mage Blink, Warlock teleport, Druid Transforms, Shamans wolf... and maybe the Only ones who don't have is Priest and Death Knight.