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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by magnem View Post
    I have 19.5% haste in my spell book..
    Vampiric Touch ticks 6 times
    Devouring Plague ticks 10 times
    SW:Pain ticks 8 times.

    Edit: 8 tick on sw: pain not 7
    this is my point
    i get the same effect with 9% haste

  2. #22
    Deleted
    His dots take less time to tick that many times though. So they are higher dps.

    Dot durations are not completely fixed - they vary by up to the tick interval - when you hit your next tick point your duration is at its longest. As you add more haste the duration shortens until the next tick is added to prevent them getting too short.

  3. #23
    how could they take less time to tick if they are ticking for the same amount of times at 20% haste and 9% haste...how much faster could they be ticking...thats a whole lot of crit you could have instead

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by BurningStick View Post
    Can you shows us solid math that states / demonstrates in which way crit is worth more dps per point than haste? If not, I dont really care much for your "opinion" and "experience"
    ^This.

    You just keep saying "imo" and "in my experience" etc, crap like that. Your opinion doesn't mean shit when it comes to numbers and math like this. You're also saying things like "this makes no sense" to people who are making perfect sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by rubadub View Post
    how could they take less time to tick if they are ticking for the same amount of times at 20% haste and 9% haste...how much faster could they be ticking...thats a whole lot of crit you could have instead
    Haste makes your DoTs tick faster, this is not about extra ticks. Someone tried to explain this to you, but you ignored it and said "this makes no sense". Please, just leave now. Don't talk about things you know nothing about, and then ignore people who try and enlighten you to the truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Precursor View Post
    "Fall of therzane....." ....um what? if that woman fell , god help us it will be the second cataclysm
    Words that lots of people don't seem to know the definition of:
    "Troll", "Rehash", "Casual", "Dead", "Dying", "Exploit".

  5. #25
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by rubadub View Post
    how could they take less time to tick if they are ticking for the same amount of times at 20% haste and 9% haste...how much faster could they be ticking...thats a whole lot of crit you could have instead
    So I'm wondering, has anyone taken a screenshot of his gear (character -> information panel open) with everything possible and reasonable reforged to haste and does a raid dummy attempt, then once again...

    Takes another screeny of his character with the damage meters, this time with all gear reforges, while keeping it reasonable and smart, reforged to crit (including haste, while above 9%). If you can make multiple attempts with each setup and take an average dps for each, that might be able to draw a line to the discussion.

    IF data shows us that crit > haste (above 9%) then it's probably worth digging deeper into this and attempting to discover why this was the case, and by how much.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by magnem View Post
    I have 19.5% haste in my spell book..
    Vampiric Touch ticks 7 times
    Devouring Plague ticks 10 times
    SW:Pain ticks 8 times.

    Edit: 8 tick on sw: pain not 7
    VT 7 not 6
    I was counting the ticks in the combat log instead of using Recount at first...

    According to my addon, when I cast Devouring Plague, the countdown starts at 23 sec and goes to 22 imidiately.
    When I get trinket procc which puts me at 23% haste the count down starts at 24 and i get 11 ticks ("12" with imp dp hit)

    Without trinket procc (haste) recount reports that the dot has been up for 23 sec for devouring plague (10 ticks).
    With trinket procc it show it has been up for 24.4 sec with 11 ticks.
    I have updated my reply a couple of times while testing..

  7. #27
    You can't ignore haste just because a DoT is ticking for the same amount of times at 20% haste and 9% haste. The tick interval is what you want to look at.

    - With 9% Haste, a DoT that normally ticks every 3 seconds will tick every ~2.86 seconds. Over 60 seconds, this DoT will tick 20 times.

    - With 20 Haste, the same DoT will tick every ~2.70 seconds. Over 60 seconds, this DoT will tick 22 times.

    This is a ~10% DPS increase on this DoT granted by 11% haste.

    Conclusion: Haste does contribute to DPS even if it doesn't change the number of ticks a DoT spell has.

  8. #28
    What sp101 says seems to be correct, since my DP with 10 ticks last for 23 sec and when I get haste procc it runs for 24 sec and 11 ticks.

  9. #29
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by rubadub View Post
    how could they take less time to tick if they are ticking for the same amount of times at 20% haste and 9% haste...how much faster could they be ticking...thats a whole lot of crit you could have instead
    11% faster at a rough guess.
    And you would get significantly less than 11% crit for the same amount of rating due to haste having a better rating to percent conversion.

    Using sp101's numbers, an 8 tick dot will need to be recast every 22.88s with 9% haste and every 21.6s with 20% haste. So you get the same number of ticks per cast and so the same amount of damage per cast, but you recast over 1s sooner with more haste.

  10. #30
    Deleted
    Im a little lost, sp101, you're saying that we cant ignore haste even if between 9% haste and 20% haste we dont have a new tick, but in your maths above you are comparing 9% haste and 20% haste with those numbers having different ticks, 9% - 20 ticks, and 20% - 22 ticks... so there are two more ticks its obvius there will be more dps..
    I just wanted to know if after you get a new tick and before the next one, will dots benifct haste? Or as you are saying, in this interval, will your dots tick faster? is that blizz told that dots were going to have always the same duration, but will get extra ticks..
    Sorry for the confusion, this new mechanism is a little tricky to get ~~.. Thanks for any help

  11. #31
    I'm surprised people are having this much trouble with this.

    You want haste. The time in between dot ticks is faster. The dot duration on the target will get shorter until it can fit another dot tick in, but it's hard to notice that during active play, but it's happening. Once it can fit in another dot tick, it'll go back to lasting it's original length, and start again. Since we can no longer clip dots, don't think about dot duration on the target. ONLY think about time between dot ticks, and NEVER let your dot fall off. Think of it as 1 long neverending spell. As you get haste, the time between ticks goes down, increasing DPS.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferin View Post
    11% faster at a rough guess.
    And you would get significantly less than 11% crit for the same amount of rating due to haste having a better rating to percent conversion.

    Using sp101's numbers, an 8 tick dot will need to be recast every 22.88s with 9% haste and every 21.6s with 20% haste. So you get the same number of ticks per cast and so the same amount of damage per cast, but you recast over 1s sooner with more haste.

    ^Wrong, the duration of DoTs is always the same(later edit: give or take some milliseconds depending on hundredths of a % of haste, not really going to affect how often we re-apply it as it will be always less than 1/3 of a sec or so difference to re-application) so you need to recast/re-apply them in the same amount of time, each time. Based on haste rating, the NUMBER of ticks is what changes, NOT how often you re-apply it.

    Darksh - what Sp101 is trying to tell you is that haste will ALWAYS benefit our DoTS because it causes them to tick faster. It's that simple. Will haste ALWAYS be >other stat? That's where you need to do the math and/or the research. Obviously it's not feasible to just go form 9% to 20% haste @lvl 85, but he was citing a good example to give people an idea of how it works.

    shadowpriest.com is a great place to gather some info before you ask a ton of questions that have already been gone over and simcrafted numerous times.
    Last edited by Ebbikenezer; 2011-01-12 at 06:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Komie View Post
    They still say Cata needs a lot of work, and this expansion (edit for reference: MoP) is in the final stages.
    Quoted for... truth? on 11/30/2011.

  13. #33
    This is how often my Vampiric Touch ticks
    3+5% haste from talents
    Haste from gear:
    0% - Every 2,9 sec / 5 ticks // 14.4 sec duration
    3.3% - 2,795 / 6 ticks // 16,77
    9.8% - 2.67 / 6 ticks // 16,02
    15% - 2.566 / 6 ticks // 15,4
    19% - 2.51 / 6 ticks // 15,06
    19,5% - 2,47 / 7 ticks // 17.3

    The numbers are not 100% correct in milliseconds, but should be close enough of what is real. Numbers pulled from recount, and seems to be correct.

    So by gaining 9% haste from 9,8% I reduce the uptime of VT by 1 second.
    Last edited by magnem; 2011-01-12 at 06:51 PM.

  14. #34
    here's the point i'm trying to make based on the data from above

    vampric touch - haste % vs ticks per sec
    9.8% - 2.67 ticks per sec / 6 ticks
    15% - 2.566 ticks per sec / 6 ticks
    19% - 2.51 ticks per sec / 6 ticks
    19,5% - 2.47 ticks per sec / 7 ticks

    for argument sake, lets say the dot ticks for a total of "100" dmg and crits for "200" dmg.

    20% haste and 10% crit with 100dmg and 200crit dmg and 5 minute fight
    total ticks = 300secs (5 minute fight) @ 2.47 sec ticks = 121.457 ticks per 5 minute fight
    total crits = 121.457 * .10 = 12.1457 of your 121.457 ticks will crit per 5 minute fight
    total damage = 100 * (121.457 - 12.457) + 200 * 12.457 = 13391.4 total damage over a 5 minute fight
    conclusion: with 20% haste and 10% crit, 100 dmg per tick and 200dmg per tick crit you will do a total of 13391.4 damage over a 5 minute fight

    10% haste and 20% crit with 100dmg and 200crit dmg and 5 minute fight
    total ticks = 300secs (5 minute fight) @ 2.67 secs tick 112.35 ticks per 5 minute fight
    total crits = 112.35 * .20 chance to crit = 22.47 of your 112.35 ticks will crit over a 5 minute fight
    total damage = 100 * (112.35 - 22.47) + 200 * 22.47 = 13482 total damage over a 5 minute fight
    conclusion: with 10% haste and 20% crit, 100 dmg per tick and 200 dmg per tick crit you do a total of 13482 damage over a 5 minute fight

    overall conclusion:
    10% haste 20% crit (13482 total dmg) > 20% haste 10%crit (13391.4 total dmg)

    I did the math...correct me if i'm wrong please.
    Last edited by rubadub; 2011-01-12 at 09:03 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by rubadub View Post
    here's the point i'm trying to make based on the data from above

    vampric touch - haste % vs ticks per sec
    9.8% - 2.67 ticks per sec / 6 ticks
    15% - 2.566 ticks per sec / 6 ticks
    19% - 2.51 ticks per sec / 6 ticks
    19,5% - 2.47 ticks per sec / 7 ticks

    for argument sake, lets say the dot ticks for a total of "100" dmg and crits for "200" dmg.

    20% haste and 10% crit with 100dmg and 200crit dmg and 5 minute fight
    total ticks = 300secs (5 minute fight) @ 2.47 sec ticks = 121.457 ticks per 5 minute fight
    total crits = 121.457 * .10 = 12.1457 of your 121.457 ticks will crit per 5 minute fight
    total damage = 100 * (121.457 - 12.457) + 200 * 12.457 = 13391.4 total damage over a 5 minute fight
    conclusion: with 20% haste and 10% crit, 100 dmg per tick and 200dmg per tick crit you will do a total of 13391.4 damage over a 5 minute fight

    10% haste and 20% crit with 100dmg and 200crit dmg and 5 minute fight
    total ticks = 300secs (5 minute fight) @ 2.67 secs tick 112.35 ticks per 5 minute fight
    total crits = 112.35 * .20 chance to crit = 22.47 of your 112.35 ticks will crit over a 5 minute fight
    total damage = 100 * (112.35 - 22.47) + 200 * 22.47 = 13482 total damage over a 5 minute fight
    conclusion: with 10% haste and 20% crit, 100 dmg per tick and 200 dmg per tick crit you do a total of 13482 damage over a 5 minute fight

    overall conclusion:
    10% haste 20% crit (13482 total dmg) > 20% haste 10%crit (13391.4 total dmg)

    I did the math...correct me if i'm wrong please.
    The point is that the tick will go off every X amount of seconds based on your haste. It wont increase the amount of ticks inside the same dot unless you hit one of the haste Markers on gear that it adds a tick.

    What will happen is that when you refresh a dot , the first tick of the refresh will tick at the same interval as if the previous dot had just continued.

    so instead of having your VT fall off and the first tick of this new VT hit at 2.67(arbitrary made up figure) seconds into the NEW VT, the refreshed VT will have it's first tick .15(arbitrary made up figure) seconds after reapplication. THAT is where the increase comes in , on the second VT which is the refresh. If you let the dot fall off and you are recasting a fresh VT each time , you will not get this increase. You will only get the increase via extra ticks at the haste "plateau" markers that add ticks to a dot.
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  16. #36
    Dude, I am not going into the math today on the above post let me put it this way, you forgot throughput and cast times and the fact it takes more crit per % than haste per % . It would take 4876pts to get 20% crit and 10% haste, where it only takes 4351 pts to get 20% haste and 10% crit thats a difference of 525 which translates to 2.92% crit or 4.1% haste

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by rubadub View Post
    I did the math...correct me if i'm wrong please.
    You can't just "swap haste and crit" and call it maths.

    Gaining 1% crit at 85 costs 179.280 critical strike rating.
    Gainin 1% haste at 85 costs 128.057 haste rating.
    You would need to do the maths with a set number of both combat rating split between both stats.

    For example, splitting 2000 combat rating could grant:

    2000 critical strike rating: 11.15% crit
    0 haste rating: 0% haste

    1500 critical strike rating: 8.37% crit
    500 haste rating: 3.9% haste

    1000 critical strike rating: 5.58% crit
    1000 haste rating: 7.81% haste

    500 critical strike rating: 2.79% crit
    1500 haste rating: 11.71% haste

    0 critical strike rating: 0% crit
    2000 haste rating: 15.62% haste


    If you consider the fact that haste coming from multiple sources (talents like Darkness, Misery) is added multiplicatively rather than additively, haste is a much more desirable stat.

    data taken from http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t106009-...age_resources/

  18. #38
    VT applied
    1
    2
    2.5 VT ticks
    3
    4
    5 VT ticks
    6
    7
    7.5 VT ticks
    8
    9
    10 VT ticks
    11
    12
    12.5 VT ticks
    13
    14
    15 VT ticks
    16
    17.5 VT ticks
    18
    19
    20 VT ticks
    21
    22
    22.5 VT ticks
    23
    24
    let VT fall off
    recast VT
    1
    2
    2.5 VT ticks


    --------------here's the difference they're trying to explain via the haste increase.

    22.5 VT ticks
    23 Recast VT
    24
    1 VT ticks
    2
    3
    3.5 VT ticks
    4
    etc etc etc

    So by reapplying the VT the first tick in the second VT or the continued VT since it was refreshed ticks at the hasted interval from the original application thereby reducing the time between the last tick of the first VT cast , and the first tick of the second VT cast. THIS is how the haste comes into play. Hopefully this is all accurate as this is my understanding, if someone with a more accurate explanation wants to take a shot feel free.
    Last edited by jonish; 2011-01-12 at 10:21 PM.
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by rubadub View Post
    here's the point i'm trying to make based on the data from above

    vampric touch - haste % vs ticks per sec
    9.8% - 2.67 ticks per sec / 6 ticks
    15% - 2.566 ticks per sec / 6 ticks
    19% - 2.51 ticks per sec / 6 ticks
    19,5% - 2.47 ticks per sec / 7 ticks

    for argument sake, lets say the dot ticks for a total of "100" dmg and crits for "200" dmg.

    20% haste and 10% crit with 100dmg and 200crit dmg and 5 minute fight
    total ticks = 300secs (5 minute fight) @ 2.47 sec ticks = 121.457 ticks per 5 minute fight
    total crits = 121.457 * .10 = 12.1457 of your 121.457 ticks will crit per 5 minute fight
    total damage = 100 * (121.457 - 12.457) + 200 * 12.457 = 13391.4 total damage over a 5 minute fight
    conclusion: with 20% haste and 10% crit, 100 dmg per tick and 200dmg per tick crit you will do a total of 13391.4 damage over a 5 minute fight

    10% haste and 20% crit with 100dmg and 200crit dmg and 5 minute fight
    total ticks = 300secs (5 minute fight) @ 2.67 secs tick 112.35 ticks per 5 minute fight
    total crits = 112.35 * .20 chance to crit = 22.47 of your 112.35 ticks will crit over a 5 minute fight
    total damage = 100 * (112.35 - 22.47) + 200 * 22.47 = 13482 total damage over a 5 minute fight
    conclusion: with 10% haste and 20% crit, 100 dmg per tick and 200 dmg per tick crit you do a total of 13482 damage over a 5 minute fight

    overall conclusion:
    10% haste 20% crit (13482 total dmg) > 20% haste 10%crit (13391.4 total dmg)

    I did the math...correct me if i'm wrong please.
    You left out:
    Cast time (faster flays, faster MB's, lower GCD to let you put DoTs up faster)
    Haste proccing more shadow orbs/apparitions
    Rating conversions favoring haste over crit (as zenkai said, needing 525 extra points)

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by rubadub View Post
    here's the point i'm trying to make based on the data from above

    vampric touch - haste % vs ticks per sec
    9.8% - 2.67 ticks per sec / 6 ticks
    15% - 2.566 ticks per sec / 6 ticks
    19% - 2.51 ticks per sec / 6 ticks
    19,5% - 2.47 ticks per sec / 7 ticks

    for argument sake, lets say the dot ticks for a total of "100" dmg and crits for "200" dmg.

    20% haste and 10% crit with 100dmg and 200crit dmg and 5 minute fight
    total ticks = 300secs (5 minute fight) @ 2.47 sec ticks = 121.457 ticks per 5 minute fight
    total crits = 121.457 * .10 = 12.1457 of your 121.457 ticks will crit per 5 minute fight
    total damage = 100 * (121.457 - 12.457) + 200 * 12.457 = 13391.4 total damage over a 5 minute fight
    conclusion: with 20% haste and 10% crit, 100 dmg per tick and 200dmg per tick crit you will do a total of 13391.4 damage over a 5 minute fight

    10% haste and 20% crit with 100dmg and 200crit dmg and 5 minute fight
    total ticks = 300secs (5 minute fight) @ 2.67 secs tick 112.35 ticks per 5 minute fight
    total crits = 112.35 * .20 chance to crit = 22.47 of your 112.35 ticks will crit over a 5 minute fight
    total damage = 100 * (112.35 - 22.47) + 200 * 22.47 = 13482 total damage over a 5 minute fight
    conclusion: with 10% haste and 20% crit, 100 dmg per tick and 200 dmg per tick crit you do a total of 13482 damage over a 5 minute fight

    overall conclusion:
    10% haste 20% crit (13482 total dmg) > 20% haste 10%crit (13391.4 total dmg)

    I did the math...correct me if i'm wrong please.

    The arithmetic is correct. The math is wrong. You do the arithmetic assuming that you can simply trade 10% haste for 10% crit. Which you cannot. It takes less haste to increase your haste by 1% than it does for crit to increase your crit by 1%. So, your initial assumption is flawed. At 85, it takes 179.2799 points of crit to increase your crit by 1%. It takes 128.057 to increase your haste by 1%. It takes nearly 50% more crit to increase your crit by 1% than it does haste. With the amount of crit needed to raise your % by 3%, you could get 4% haste. So, because 10% crit nets more dps than 10% haste, it does not mean that 10 crit is better than 10 haste. You need to show that 10% crit is better than 14% haste to do that.

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