4.0.6 - We are fine (dps wise)

[gherkin]

Stop the doomsaying or crying out that we got hit with the nerf bat. It's not nearly bad as some of you estimate and at best it was trading quality of life in some areas for an increased difficulty in others. Overall, we came out doing less dps (between 600 and 1000 dps in full epics, half that in full blues) but without having to manage a haste buff, Immolate dropping due to specific gear-haste levels, less 15 second duration casts that overlap all the damn time, a better Imp Demon Soul, increased benefit from (previously) shitty mastery gear, and +range to our kiting spell.

I believe we came out ahead, but I know many of you will disagree and thats ok. Just don't get violent and start yelling at people who don't share your opinion. And if you "hate blizzard" then I'm handing out infractions.

Facts:
- The nerfs to our dps were not as severe as simply removing ISF from our rotations. For example, Affliction might have lost 15% haste but it gained 2 gcds every 15 seconds (the cast time of soul fire) which we spend on shadow spells (that are affected by our mastery/specialization), 4 talent points of marginal use, and we can now use our Soulburn on Seed of Corruption, Instant Summons, or other utility things like teleport speed or healthstones. Not great, but its not zero.
- Demonology got compensated for the nerfs via the Mastery buff as well as the Immolate extension. It was already low on single target fights so this was justified.
- Destruction was not fully compensated but still does competitive, if not higher, dps than other classes that were trailing just behind us before.
- Affliction was not compensated but due to PVP implications it probably will not be. It is still competitive, but current affliction players will notice the change.
- All three specs are very close in dps, but since it's entirely gear dependant, one will be higher for you than all the rest. Affliction favors Haste, Demonology favors Mastery, and Destruction favors Crit (but the margin is much lower)

Opinions:
- Fel Armor HP5 removal sucks balls and forces us to carry around food we never had to worry about before.
- Fel Armor Mana Pool+ is a direct buff to Demonology due to Mana Feed, but Destruction never had mana before and it won't make a difference to Affliction. However, it's still half a life tap, so we save 1 gcd per fight at best.
- Curse of Exhaustion change will hurt, but was necessary as it was too punishing to classes that were already doing poorly and completely ineffective against classes doing well. I for one will enjoy the range increase.
- Inferno radius reduction is of no consequence to PVE raiding, as Immolation Aura still had 8 yards max. This basically gives Rogues a chance to sap us, but the question remains - does a skilled rogue have the right to get a guaranteed sap off? Does a warlock have a right to prevent it?
- Imp Demon Soul change is welcome, and the Burning Embers nerf is necessary - Destruction had too high of a reliance on Imp crits.

[Glnger]

the main thing I'm getting dps and pvp arguments aside is that at least a portion of the lock community feel like the class itself is losing its flavor that distinguished us from the other casters, be it the tier look and spell changes coming into cata to the last several batches of "changes"- we'll call them. That just make people bitter or upset every time they see their class in the patch notes that they make a rage or QQ post/ thread. These are some of are tried and true abilities that are getting axed outright or redone in a way not akin to the warlock class.

I'd still say the juries out on whether affliction dps will be "fine" without further adjustments that arent simply based around making a pet do more dps and re evaluating the pet scale factors every major patch as we saw in wotlk. I don't think anyone doubted that imp soulfire would be a long term mechanic as it was, but to me it just shows how "deer in headlights" devs are at discerning a proper way of balance between these two elements of the game. affliction sure as hell wont see x.xx increase to mastery like what was done with the other two specs

[Aristeides]

I'm disappointed in ISF's removal as I liked the mechanic, unwieldy as it might have felt to some in Affliction's rotation. The additional buff to manage has kept me engaged playing Affliction, and since it is my preferred spec regardless I've been have a great time. Damage and balance changes aside, I want something else in Affliction's toolbox to make up for the loss of ISF. Having raided as Affliction at the release of Wrath, I think it might be time for Immolate to come back as a DoT in Affliction's rotation. Additionally, the removal of the healing component to Fel Armor irks me quite a bit as it further undermines what makes our resource system unique as well as the dramatic idea that we're conjurers of dark arts sucking the life out of the environment around us.

If nothing is done on a mechanics front, I will most likely explore Demonology for the first time since I rolled my Warlock. I have managed to excel enough as Affliction/Destruction to never have been the one lock asked to be the 10% SP buff bot. However, if the changes go live as they are now Demonology will have higher single target/multi-target DPS potential than any of the other specs as well as what seems to be a more interesting toolbox of abilities.

[gualdhar]

Aside from the points gherkin brought up, I'm still angry about succy's high dps compared to other pets not being brought up. Glyph of Lash of Pain is OP, yes, but that means they should buff felhunter and, especially, felguard single-target dps, which would make up for part of afflic's and demo's dps loss. I doubt it would be that hard to increase white damage to compensate. Hell, a felguard with slightly weaker dps wouldn't be that much of a problem, as the change in glyph and demon soul would make up the difference.

[Moonlapse]

Awesome post.

However, I have a question about itemization for Destruction. Simcraft tells me that I should value Haste over Crit even before the patch. Are you sure Haste won't be our primary stat over crit now? (especially since Haste will scale better with Demon Soul now) Or does my specific gear set somehow put me in the minority?

[Agallochh]

I'm eager to see how the new ISF pans out for Destro, as it is my PvE spec. I never thought anything was a real nerf, everything changes and it's up to the individual to adapt to them.

[Conzy]

I for one don't agree. I think taking a look at it we got a huge nerf. Its bad enough most of the melee classes the CoEx is useful on have a gap closer as is, not to mention their own slow. So we get what a saving grace every 30 secs or so with portal? The removal of Mana Drain is outrageous seeing as Burn Mana is equally as useful and deals damage yet is still in the game. Warriors/rogues/dks/ferals all also have slows so about the only melee class that should be able to QQ is a ret. Not to mention I feel the ISF is a huge nerf atm. Maybe in the future it won't be so bad, but 15 percent haste on spells taken away just like that is alot to recover from. Now I don't claim to be good at this game I'm average at best, but in my 10 man raids my elemental shaman/fire mage/ and i believe survival hunter are all very competitive with myself atop our meters. In this patch i see fire gets a buff/ele gets a slight buff/ and what I believe to be a buff to hunters as well. And what does destruction get? 15 percent haste gone. Our worst stat slightly buffed and a marginal increase in damage to our spells that takes almost 3 secs to cast anyways. I just don't understand how destro could've possibly been so OP in pve that would warrant this change.

[Dottey]

Well IMHO the loss of the health gen is going to be huge, its key to lock survivability.
This change makes me nervous wondering if Blizz will continue down this road to ultimatly make warlocks the same as mages.

The COEx change is again going to be devastating to PVP locks.

These two key ponts are potential game changers for locks eveything else is more or less adjusted by Mastery change.

---------- Post added 2011-01-13 at 03:05 PM ----------

Awesome post.

However, I have a question about itemization for Destruction. Simcraft tells me that I should value Haste over Crit even before the patch. Are you sure Haste won't be our primary stat over crit now? (especially since Haste will scale better with Demon Soul now) Or does my specific gear set somehow put me in the minority?

Haste > Crit no matter what yer spec is.

[zvix]

Well duing bloodlust improved soul fire couldnt be used.. so during that phase, the most important phase on most bosses you gain some dps/
Yeah, destro feels to OP and the rotation is just fucked up sometimes.

And isnt wow all about the balance of classes so that skill give the advantage rather then "talents/spells".

[nocturnus]

and Destruction favors Crit

Not anymore. Haste is desired more than crit since we have to gear for our seventh immolate tick now.

Fel Armor Mana Pool+ is a direct buff to Demonology due to Mana Feed, but Destruction never had mana... (FEED?)

Destro has mana feed. This change is a direct dps buff. A small one, yes, but a buff nevertheless.

The demon soul change was welcome. The value of BL has increased thanks fo the femoval of ISF and thanks to the demon soul change. The burning embers change will be felt though.

Good post.

[gualdhar]

Awesome post.

However, I have a question about itemization for Destruction. Simcraft tells me that I should value Haste over Crit even before the patch. Are you sure Haste won't be our primary stat over crit now? (especially since Haste will scale better with Demon Soul now) Or does my specific gear set somehow put me in the minority?

Haste > Crit no matter what yer spec is.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong, wrong wrong wrong wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong.

Haste's value still depends on how close or far away you are from an extra Immolation tick for destruction. The only difference now is that target haste numbers appear to be slightly lower, but you lose the certain +1 tick we had before.

---------- Post added 2011-01-13 at 04:04 PM ----------

Destro has mana feed. This change is a direct dps buff. A small one, yes, but a buff nevertheless.

I think he meant mana issues, which we don't. Between mana feed and soul leech and replenishment, if a destro warlock had to life tap a handful of times the fight went too long. Afflic and Demo don't share Destro's massive innate mana regeneration.

[nocturnus]

Yea, that makes more sense indeed. We indeed have no mana issues. But we still need to tap. This will decrease the amount of taps even more and alleviate our healers somewhat.

Our haste target is slightly lower because reaching the 8th tick is impossible anyway. When we've reached the 7th tick, haste's value will drop drastically. Crit will be of higher value as a supplement to the haste values needed for the 7th tick (as long as we keep the 7th immolate tick).

[hidey0shi]

The dps values will change a bit but not that much. Affli and affli drain will take the biggest hit to their dps, demo will go up and destro will remain at pretty much the same level, maybe slighly lower.
The removal of hp regen from felarmor will be the most painful for demo since it doesnt have any other ways of returning health.

I disagree about inferno tho, reducing the range of hellfire by 20 yards WILL affect demos aoe capabilities in certain pve situations.
On magmaws parasites for example where you cant stay too close to them, I dont think hellfire will be viable at all with such a short range. Other situations include simply mobs being too spread apart for hellfire to cover them all.

All in all I like the patch changes and I cant wait for them to go live.

[gualdhar]

Our haste target is slightly lower because reaching the 8th tick is impossible anyway. When we've reached the 7th tick, haste's value will drop drastically. Crit will be of higher value as a supplement to the haste values needed for the 7th tick (as long as we keep the 7th immolate tick).

This is different than it is now... how? Dottey was insinuating haste is always better than crit regardless of spec. I merely pointed out that haste and crit trade off for destro, as it does now and will do when 4.0.6 hits (in its current form). My guess is there will be similar weight weaving for haste/mastery for demo and afflic, though I haven't seen the numbers yet.

[Sabaka]

really excited about this patch, as i'm sure many of you are.. i personally enjoyed affliction/demo's rotation-- hell i even found it easier hardcasting SF to keep the buff up as afflic since i'd get haste procs which made the cast time even faster... but i'm mostly excited cuz theyre buffing mastery, which is very easy to come by

[nocturnus]

This is different than it is now... how? Dottey was insinuating haste is always better than crit regardless of spec. I merely pointed out that haste and crit trade off for destro, as it does now and will do when 4.0.6 hits (in its current form). My guess is there will be similar weight weaving for haste/mastery for demo and afflic, though I haven't seen the numbers yet.

Sim your own character and see. In theory, I should start stacking crit at this point. According to my 50k iterations, haste is still of greater value than crit.

After the patch notes, haste will become even more valuable. You'll probably won't even go for crit when in (the relatively short) plateau phase, because demon soul scales so well with haste values now.

In theory You stack haste until you gain that extra corruption tick. Afterwards you go for crit, until you have enough reforgable material to get ~2600+ haste for the extra tick.

All theory though. If you simcraft your own toon, you'll notice significant differences compared to the BiS toons.

[Conzy]

with the buff to mastery though how does that affect destro scaling? is it still the same with crit and mastery relatively close or would mastery jump it?Also I have a question about the fel armor mana buff. Is that going to stack with the mages percent from AI or will we just be getting fel armor?

[Agallochh]

with the buff to mastery though how does that affect destro scaling? is it still the same with crit and mastery relatively close or would mastery jump it?Also I have a question about the fel armor mana buff. Is that going to stack with the mages percent from AI or will we just be getting fel armor?

I'm fairly sure it's going to stack though I don't have evidence supporting it. I just don't think Blizz would give us our own personal AI.

[Deleted]

Gherkin - "Inferno radius reduction is of no consequence to PVE raiding"


How are you planning to aoe at Magmaw now?

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

I disagree with the comment about Inferno. Sure, Immolation is 8 yards, but there are still times where you will not want to be close regardless of Inferno. For example, when Metamorphosis isn't up. Another example, Magmaw. I don't know about you, but when Immolation dropped off, I got my ass out of there for every fight, only moving close enough to Shadowflame and backing off while channeling Hellfire. It worked out pretty great before.

I mean I sort of see the complaints in PvP, but only for BGs. In Arena, if a Warlock is channeling Hellfire to try and stop you from attacking, you just let him oom himself in 5 or 6 casts and THEN attack, or you go for him during a Life Tap with a gap closer. Demonology Warlocks were not a problem at all in PvP.

I also don't know where you're getting only 600-1000 DPS loss from, everywhere I've seen is at least a few thousand.