PTR: Ret pally rotation and stat proritizing

[Ununoctium]

Hi there

I made a post earlier today about the ret dps buff in the upcoming patch. It is a slight buff to the damage, and I hope if will become more, as right now Hammer of Wrath hits for 50% of what it does on live, and mastery and inquisition don't work together. Unfortunatly the thread got locked, as it turned into a trolling/flaming thread for some reason. I'll try and be a bit more thorough this time.

This post is about Retribution PvE damage on PTR.

Let me introduce myself. I play a Retribution Paladin named Hattelol. I have played Retribution since the release of WoW in 2005, and I have raided endgame, been raid- and guild leader for long periods of time, and played in high ranked arena games since. I have played all classes and specs at max level (except for DK - hate the entire idea of the class) and I know how all pve and pvp mechanics work. I am not a pro player, like the ones who play arena several hours each day to get gladiator title. I play for fun and when I feel like it.
Even though I feel like I know almost everything about the ret pally, alot of people don't agree with what I am about to say.

My armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...attelol/simple

I have a resi/sta gem in my gloves and relic, as I use them for PvP, which is my main priority.

The standard rotation is:
CS --> Filler --> Filler --> CS --> Filler --> Filler --> CS --> Inquisition
CS --> Filler --> Filler --> CS --> Filler --> Filler --> CS --> Templar's Verdict
repeat

With haste, the cooldown of CS get lower, and once you're below 3,5 seconds, I find only one filler being more sufficient, so when you get enough gear, reforge mastery/expertise/hit/crit (in that order) into haste to lower the cooldown as much as possible (the lower the better, you won't ever get down to 2 seconds anyway).

This way the rotation will be:
CS --> Filler --> CS --> Filler --> CS --> Inquisition
CS --> Filler --> CS --> Filler --> CS --> Templar's Verdict

With this rotation, your two hardest hitting abilities (except for Exorcism procs) will be pressed more often, giving you a higher dps. Also, by using two fillers you'll have just as much time doing nothing, as the only two reliable fillers are on cooldown most of the time.

Always use Divine Purpose procs for TV, so that every second time you have 3 HP, you use Inquisition - that way it's always up!

The priority of skills is this:
If <3 Holy Power, use CS
If 3 Holy Power, use TV/Inq
If AoW proc, and CS on cd, use Exorcism
If <3 HP, AoW proc and CS not on cd, then use CS, then Exorcism (and then TV if 3 HP after CS)
If 3 HP, AoW proc, CS not on cd, use Exorcism, TV, then CS
If <3 HP, DP proc, CS not on cd, then use CS and then TVx2
If 3 HP, DP proc, use 2x TV
If 3 HP, DP proc and AoW proc, use TV, Exorcism, TV, CS

Or simply: Something procs, use it.

Make sure to have renewed Inquuisition before popping AW. On Zealotry the rotation is:
CS --> TV
If something procs, use it, but don't use more than 2 spells inbetween your CS unless you still got 3 HP (meaning both AoW and DP procs)

Consider Exorcism a filler with #1 filler priority
Consider HoW a filler with #2 filler priority
Consider HW a filler with #3 filler priority
Consider Judgement a filler with #4 filler priority (unless low on mana or your buff is running out)

With this rotation, the percentage done by abilities will look like this:
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/7...1311174211.jpg (didn't bother setting up my UI properly for the PTR)


This was posted in my last thread:

Str 1
AP 0.46
Hit 0.30
Exp 0.19
Mastery 0.18
Crit 0.13
Haste 0.12

Now I say that's not true. Let me explain:

Haste is the stat you want to avoid until you get enough haste to have the rotation with only one filler - then haste should be your main priority (after str ofc).
Mastery does not work with Inquisition atm, so that stat is to be avoided until it is fixed.
Hit and Expertise are not as good as shown here. 40% of the ret pallys damage (more if HoW gets back to it's current state, instead of it critting for 15k) is spell damage and cannot be dodged or parried. It also will not miss with the 8% spell hit we got. So these two stats only work for 60% (or less) of our damage. In addition to that, a missed CS will still provice HP, and a missed TV will not consume HP. You simply press the button once more. Also, the more hit/expertise you have, the less of an improvement to your dps they are. Like the following:

10% Miss chance will give you 90% dps (only talking white numbers here). Improving your hit chance by 1% will bring you to 91% hit, which is a dps increase of 1,11%.
2% Miss chance will give you 98% dps (still only talking white numbers). Improving your hit chance by 1% will bring you to 99% hit, which is a dps increase of 1,02%.

So the more hit/expertise you have, the less valuable the stat is, and the more haste you have, the more valuable the stat is. Also consider that we got 10 expertise from the glyph.

My prioritizing atm is haste > crit > hit/expertise > mastery (will pop above hit/expertise when working properly).

I for one am looking forward to the changes, and I hope that HoW and mastery will be fixed in due time. I hope to pop past 20k dps in heroics. Comparing with http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9...1211145255.jpg it should be possible.

All this is open for discussion. I'm all ears for suggestions or people who don't agree with me - just be constructive on your feedback, please.

[Arganaut]

Didn't 99% of Ret Pallies disagree with you about another post you made that got locked?

[Drekor]

In addition to that, a missed CS will still provice HP, and a missed TV will not consume HP

Except in the case of a missed CS you lose the entire damage of your CS and can do nothing for 1.5s. The same is true for missing a TV you are wasting 1.5s of your time doing nothing. That is a HUGE loss in DPS.

So the more hit/expertise you have, the less valuable the stat is, and the more haste you have, the more valuable the stat is. Also consider that we got 10 expertise from the glyph.

I disagree, unless you can have enough haste to get you to a 3s CS it is very much not worthwhile at all. Once you pass 3s it is again not very worthwhile only getting to that value(or very close to it) is valuable, especially now that HoL has been changed.

[Ununoctium]

Didn't 99% of Ret Pallies disagree with you about another post you made that got locked?

That's an exaggeration. A couple of guys thought dl;dr and started flaming, so it got locked. Try and read it thoroughly and give constructive feedback. I still haven't heard anyone disprove what I purposed.

---------- Post added 2011-01-13 at 10:15 PM ----------

Except in the case of a missed CS you lose the entire damage of your CS and can do nothing for 1.5s. The same is true for missing a TV you are wasting 1.5s of your time doing nothing. That is a HUGE loss in DPS.


I disagree, unless you can have enough haste to get you to a 3s CS it is very much not worthwhile at all. Once you pass 3s it is again not very worthwhile only getting to that value(or very close to it) is valuable, especially now that HoL has been changed.

Through my countless dummybashing tries, I see a significant increase in numbers with a one-filler-rotation with enough haste. Sure I will have about .3 seconds where I do nothing before using CS again, but with the increase of CS damage (about 20k crits compared to 6k judgement or 8k HW), it's worhwhile. Besides, if you do a 2-filler-rotation, you will have even more time doing nothing, as our only two non-proc fillers have too long a cooldown for both of them to be used between each CS.

[Nikoll]

Well here is a quck fix for your dps. On live exo before cs. Exo hits so much harder you want to make sure to get all possible aow procs. Once the patch goes live that will change, but it isn't live yet.

[Ununoctium]

Well here is a quck fix for your dps. On live exo before cs. Exo hits so much harder you want to make sure to get all possible aow procs. Once the patch goes live that will change, but it isn't live yet.

Read the title. This is PTR. Also, if you read the post, I did't complain about my dps once.

[Floross]

Unu , have you came with a number ( regarding amount of secondary ratings on gear ) or estimated ilvl of gear that would allow us through reforging to drop down to a 3sec CS ?

[Deleted]

It would take around 4300 haste when latency is accounted for.

[Prentice]

It would take around 4300 haste when latency is accounted for.

That is only accounting for very low latency (like 40ms). If you're latency is closer to 120 or more, you will be needing 5k+.

[marinos]

^^ which seems kinda impossible to achieve with t11 as well as with t12(even if we dont know the stats on gear, it doesnt seem there is going to be such a huge boost).Prolly with t13 and above.^^

[Badpaladin]

Okay, to quickly address your screenshot from the other thread: http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/7...1311174211.jpg

Hand of Light is not registering, which means you were not hitting the correct target. Just 'cause I'm lazy and don't want to upload my own screenshots that I'd have to take, here's what I'm talking about.

Incorrect dummy: http://media.mywowui.net/main.php?g2...alNumber=1.jpg
Correct dummy: http://media.mywowui.net/main.php?g2...alNumber=1.jpg

Here's post from another forum I frequent where these recount parses came from. This is Requital's posts that I've hijacked.

Now about this post, you're wrong about stat values. The reason why Haste is devalued is because it is absolutely, 100% impossible to get softcapped without ignoring Strength. Using this formula:

[4.5/1.05/1.09/(3.0-latency_in_ms) -1]*12800, you would need over 3900 haste with absolutely no latency to reach that cap. With latency, it gets worse and worse. If you're over 100ms, you're sitting on 4500+ haste required. This is assuming Wrath of Air and Judgments of the Pure, as the Windfury effect only affects attack speed. All the while, you only cause more and more clash when you try and reach this point. Regarding fluidity of the rotation, stacking haste over crit is detrimental. Clash = DPS loss.

Regarding stat weights, to put it bluntly you're just plain wrong. I don't have a parse of your damage, so I can't look at damage distributions and give you exact values on how much haste contributed versus how much crit would have contributed, but I do urge you to peruse EJ and look for Redcape and Exemplar's posts when they mention stat weights.

If you don't want to go through the hassle(even I really don't feel like jumping through tons of EJ posts >.>), just rest assured that these stat weights are put together with many weeks of debate and final resolution. Although Redcape and Exemplar run different spreadhseets(I find Exemplar's to be the most accurate, as his track record has been near perfect regarding that), both their stat weights reflect the same general trend.

[Deleted]

I agree with Badpaladin here, it seems like you (OP) is trying to re-invent the wheel, by trying to solve a mathematical question (statweights) with your own kitchen logic ("haste feels good so it must be better than...").

Instead, I urge you to go visit the Elitist Jerks thread and follow the discussion there. The retribution spec and all the change that have been made to it in the past many years is being followed closely, and a lot of people with both great programming and mathematical knowledge are spending a great deal of time trying to figure out statweights as accurately as possible.

If you want to dispute the work they are putting in there, atleast put in some effort and actually present your OWN math (not your napkin recount math) in that thread, so you have actually savvy people to look through your calculations.

Without that, you are as I stated before, just attempting to re-invent the wheel (and a poor attempt at that), possibly misleading newcomers on the board with flawed advice and observations.

[Brashara]

I saw this argument in the last one and it appears to be the OP demanding to be proven wrong, but then refusing to read any proof that isn't directly copy/pasted into this thread.

I reiterate my hope that nobody reads OP's post and takes it seriously because its entirely suboptimal.

Stat weights are as follows:
Str: 1
AP: .46
Hit: .30
Expertise: .19
Crit: .14
Haste: .13
Mastery: .009

OBVIOUSLY mastery will change in value with this patch, but as these are compared to Strength, the others will be consistent. With the mastery change, Mastery will (hopefully) move up, but it doesn't seem like Haste will change since the new mastery won't affect it--its value may even go down.

Hit is more important than haste by a LONGSHOT. There's no argument there and you tried to make one before.

You specifically take NUMBERS. Stat weights. Extensive testing goes into these and you're just disproving them with inaccurate napkin math which is largely, if not entirely, incorrect.

[Rlyskilled]

Since I was at work all day and Badpaladin and others have pretty much said everything I could say about how wrong you are, I'll leave you with this.

People used to think that it was a fact that the sun revolved around the earth. Just because you think something is right, doesn't mean it actually is.

[Rio]

Your stat weighs are wrong.. Sorry.

[MorphexEU]

Ï suggest you all read Redcape's blogg and one of his posts about what he, and elitist, currently know about stat weights right now and after next patch. Here is the link:

http://brightcapegamer.blogspot.com/...f-fortune.html

[Bladewind]

I''m just gonna quote badpaladin, and all the other rets in this thread, they pretty much summed up everything, that needed to be said, and like the person above said, if your CD start to class then you lose dps, not only are you missing and dodging most of your ability's are clashing now.

[Ununoctium]

Okay, to quickly address your screenshot from the other thread: http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/7...1311174211.jpg

Hand of Light is not registering, which means you were not hitting the correct target. Just 'cause I'm lazy and don't want to upload my own screenshots that I'd have to take, here's what I'm talking about.

Incorrect dummy: http://media.mywowui.net/main.php?g2...alNumber=1.jpg
Correct dummy: http://media.mywowui.net/main.php?g2...alNumber=1.jpg

Here's post from another forum I frequent where these recount parses came from. This is Requital's posts that I've hijacked.

Now about this post, you're wrong about stat values. The reason why Haste is devalued is because it is absolutely, 100% impossible to get softcapped without ignoring Strength. Using this formula:

[4.5/1.05/1.09/(3.0-latency_in_ms) -1]*12800, you would need over 3900 haste with absolutely no latency to reach that cap. With latency, it gets worse and worse. If you're over 100ms, you're sitting on 4500+ haste required. This is assuming Wrath of Air and Judgments of the Pure, as the Windfury effect only affects attack speed. All the while, you only cause more and more clash when you try and reach this point. Regarding fluidity of the rotation, stacking haste over crit is detrimental. Clash = DPS loss.

Regarding stat weights, to put it bluntly you're just plain wrong. I don't have a parse of your damage, so I can't look at damage distributions and give you exact values on how much haste contributed versus how much crit would have contributed, but I do urge you to peruse EJ and look for Redcape and Exemplar's posts when they mention stat weights.

If you don't want to go through the hassle(even I really don't feel like jumping through tons of EJ posts >.>), just rest assured that these stat weights are put together with many weeks of debate and final resolution. Although Redcape and Exemplar run different spreadhseets(I find Exemplar's to be the most accurate, as his track record has been near perfect regarding that), both their stat weights reflect the same general trend.

How can you hit a dummy incorrectly? What I got out of that link was that HoL does not work on a dummy, and if that is the case, you might be right. I will have to check that out. However, did you think about that in a 2-filler rotation, you will have alot of downtime due to your fillers being on CD?
Anyway, I don't refuse to listen, there's just alot of people who say "you're wrong, end of discussion", which I can't really use. I gave a valid argument for why I believe as I do, and Badpaladin obviously is trying to prove the opposite, and in the case he's right about HoL not working on a dummy, and that mastery will prove to be better than haste, I will gladly admit I was wrong.

[Xaeldn]

How can you hit a dummy incorrectly? What I got out of that link was that HoL does not work on a dummy, and if that is the case, you might be right. I will have to check that out.

As far as I'm aware, on the PTR HoL is considering attacking dummies with 1hp to be a Killing Blow and is subsequently dealing 1 or 0 HoL damage, rather than what it should be. Hence, incorrectly hitting a dummy.

[Ununoctium]

I saw this argument in the last one and it appears to be the OP demanding to be proven wrong, but then refusing to read any proof that isn't directly copy/pasted into this thread.

I reiterate my hope that nobody reads OP's post and takes it seriously because its entirely suboptimal.

Stat weights are as follows:
Str: 1
AP: .46
Hit: .30
Expertise: .19
Crit: .14
Haste: .13
Mastery: .009

OBVIOUSLY mastery will change in value with this patch, but as these are compared to Strength, the others will be consistent. With the mastery change, Mastery will (hopefully) move up, but it doesn't seem like Haste will change since the new mastery won't affect it--its value may even go down.

Hit is more important than haste by a LONGSHOT. There's no argument there and you tried to make one before.

You specifically take NUMBERS. Stat weights. Extensive testing goes into these and you're just disproving them with inaccurate napkin math which is largely, if not entirely, incorrect.

Well, haste does not affect the new mastery, as it did the old, that is true. But the only math I did here, about hit/expertise, was correct.

---------- Post added 2011-01-14 at 11:29 AM ----------

As far as I'm aware, on the PTR HoL is considering attacking dummies with 1hp to be a Killing Blow and is subsequently dealing 1 or 0 HoL damage, rather than what it should be. Hence, incorrectly hitting a dummy.

That makes sense. Gonna check it out when I get back from work. Thanks for this.