Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
LastLast
  1. #41
    Bloodsail Admiral Devlin1991's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    1,087
    Quote Originally Posted by parkerlynne View Post
    I'd like to point out that council is by far easier as a melee, at least how my guild does it. Phase 1 : all melee on fire, ranged on water, ranged must position to reach both so they can switch for shield, melee almost never gets waterlogged or knocked back by the fire charge. Phase 2 : still split DPS but ranged have to find their own debuff-giver and often can't stay faced to boss while going for instants, melee just gets dragged with the tank when he goes to get his debuff. Phase 3 : once again, melee just runs with the tank while the ranged scream at eachother over vent while trying to stay spread out and within range of the boss.

    Also, your melee must suck because our bombass dk out dps's everyone on every aoe pack, its sickening really.
    Easier for your guilds melee/strat is not the same as "eaiser for the raid/more likely to down the boss".

    Council punishes bringing melee extremely hard. They take far more damage than the range in p3 which is the only phase that matters the rest is meaningless. P1 on heroic you need to make sure that as many ppl as possible get the buffs from the boss which means all the range stand on top of each other and skatter for 1-2s at most on the charge, You also stay grouped as range during p2 on heroic and move as a group with only the lightning rod person standing away from the rest.

    On your last line.
    http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...eaker/10H/dps/
    Entire top 150 all fire mages,demo locks,survival hunters. All 3 of those specs destroy UH Deathknights if played properly. but yes all other melee lack in aoe compared to DK's especially since dkays aoe is passive and involves hitting a 3 button sequance which allows them to hit Outbreak>pest>dnd then retreat where as rogues,warriors,ferals all need constant melee range to keep up there aoe which puts them in severe danger of death/debuffs on a lot of the aoe fights.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Devlin1991 View Post
    Artremedes - Melee can't dps at all during air phases + Tight enrage = bench all melee on heroic or don't bother as enrage timer will kill you.
    Just going to focus on that sentence, you realize during the air phase there are constant sonar bombs coming down, which makes it near impossible to dps the boss as ranged. If you get hit by it your sound goes even though that easily could have been avoided. Sure we can keep our instants up, but its not like we're going to be able to do our full rotation on him without taking a sonar bomb to the face.

    TBH, most people who say blizzard hates melee dps are easily overreacting. Here's my personal rundown from my experience.

    Magmaw: melee favored - because they stand there and hit the boss the whole time while ranged dodge pillars/kill adds
    ODS: ranged favored - since melee are focused on interrupting arcanotron, can't switch to adds if fixated and can't stand in the power circles(don't remember the name)
    Maloriak: equal
    Atramedes:...meh..about equal, melee just sit there on boss, and move away from the rings when they see them and can continue their rotation, ranged cannot. Ranged can throw instants during air phase, but if they try to do full rotation they'll more than likely take a sonar bomb to the face.
    Chimaeron: melee favored - both take hit debuff, but melee can still attack the boss while they move to the stack
    Nefarian: ranged favored - due to p2 ranged can dps nefarian + adds, p1 they can dps nefarian and ony

    Halfus: equal, kill adds, interrupt..nothing much really
    Valiona + Theralion: Heavily melee favored - melee just move while still dpsing, ranged have to spread stack spread stack spread stack spread stack, can't do shit when they need to get out of devouring flame while melee can sit there and just move 2 steps to the left and be ok. Theralion ranged stay stacked for twilight meteor and move as a group, melee just stay on boss.
    Ascendant Council: Heavily ranged favored - ranged can double dot the bosses, during p2 ranged have it easier due to air guy porting around, he can port out of range but only need to move a step to attack him again. p3 is the bane of all melee.
    Cho'gall: equal, slightly melee favored - ranged kill adds, dodge shadow crashes, melee stay on boss, only go to bloods if ranged need help, during p2 burn tentacles

    Conclave: equal - not going into detail
    Al'akir: about equal, p1 is annoying for everyone, p2 is annoying for melee due to the add and p3 is annoying for ranged due to movement.

    That about sums it up
    My sig was stolen, if you find it please contact me. Thanks.

  3. #43
    Chogall is pretty much impossible if you have 3 melee unless both of your ranged can do NUTS aoe dmg to the oozes, this is on 10 man at least. I had to sit my druid (feral) and bring in my mage alt to get our chogall kill and now thats all my druid is missing for defender title D:

  4. #44
    Tell me one melee bias in wotlk...it was always either even or ranged bias

  5. #45
    A frost Dk in our raid, comes to me (I, as frost mage, pet-nova the adds while Flamestrike-Blizzard combo) and throw death and decay+Howling Blast. Yeah, not all melee can do dps on magmaw's adds but since im the only one luring the Pillar away from the raid, the melees can do their rotations on magmaw.

    And valiona and theralion? Come on, ranged and healers in P1 moving on to the boss for blackout, and constantly moving on P2 as pack, hurting the overall dps of everyone (bad luck on melees if they got the aoe debuff, but there is a higher chance for melees to perform well since they can still hit the dragon legs attempting to do their rotation).

  6. #46
    Bloodsail Admiral Devlin1991's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    1,087
    Quote Originally Posted by Mindfreakz View Post
    Just going to focus on that sentence, you realize during the air phase there are constant sonar bombs coming down, which makes it near impossible to dps the boss as ranged.
    <snip>
    you can nearly always finish a 1.5s cast and jump to the side. most range have instants that are part of your rotation so you can maintain at minimum 40-60% of your dps vs a melee's big fat 0(perhaps 10% or so as Frost DK with HB,DC spam).

    Quote Straight from paragon's forum.
    zYN - "I'm fairly sure there's _some_ fraps footage, I just remember Diamondtear specifically saying he didn't fraps it. Deva has some bits of it, although I think he deleted some of them out of anger. I have no clue. It was probably the most horrible raiding day we've had in the whole expansion - if I remember right, roughly half the raid just logged out without really even checking the loot. Just getting out as fast as possible. I'm not really up-to-date on any of this. Maybe someone else will respond who has a clue.

    We didn't use the doorway tactic though, since that's what you were asking. We fought him in the room without leaving it. We did have some sonar pulses get stuck in the walls occasionally because of the position we tanked it in at, so saying it was a completely clean kill would be just flat out lying. I'm absolutely sure that there's not a single guild who has killed him without using some sort of exploit - intentional or not. Double gongs, sonars getting stuck etc.. probably the worst I know of was the "unlimited gongs" after a soft reset. There were quite a few high and low ranked guilds just killing him by repeatedly clicking on non-despawning gongs. That particular "tactic" made the boss just sit in place and take twice the normal damage, not even using any abilities at all.


    I honestly don't think that we can meet the DPS requirements with the new fixes to the encounter if we're going to try it with a regular raid setup. Probably not going to be even close. 10 minute enrage is also quite absurd - a full ranged setup is a must-have."

  7. #47
    Most encounters suck for melee, I do agree completely. It's the same shit as in TBC (remember Leotheras, Al'ar, Supremus, Vashj anyone? - just to add a few examples), Tho I'm used to it and I top recount anyways. :$ It is just sad to see that ranged has so much more potential and then simple can't avoid shit or if I out-DPS them.

    Signature created by Nevad.

  8. #48
    Even the fights that 'favored melee' still needed ranged dps. Many of the Cata fights favor and need range, and cant be done without melee for the most part.

    That's the issue.

    [11:50:45] Earthmender Duarn says: Shamanistic healing is a complex art. You can't just chain heal all day.

  9. #49
    Some fights favor melee, some fights are almost equal, some fights favor ranged.

    From my experience as a feral cat, I'd much rather play a ranged class. There's not a single fight that completely takes away one of their abilities, whereas as a kitty, I can't Shred all the bosses.. but that's just my bias :P I'm sure there's some ranged out there who would rather play melee. But you can't deny that the fight mechanics get easier to see when you're not right on a boss's rear end with him taking up half your screen. I'm exaggerating slightly, but there were many fights where I ran out of melee range to battle res someone, and had to do a double-take at how much more visible room there was.

  10. #50
    Another issue is that there technically is no such thing as ranged dps besides Hunters. If you have a caster heavy comp and some mechanic means you need 4 people in melee range; 3 casters, one melee, two tanks and 3 healers, you just have a healer or caster sit in melee range. Ranged (cept Hunters) can dps from wherever, while melee needs to be next to the boss.

    [11:50:45] Earthmender Duarn says: Shamanistic healing is a complex art. You can't just chain heal all day.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Mallerna View Post
    Well melee got pvp atm... and there is allways going to be unbalanced. Just stop the whining and deal with it.
    um mages? lol.
    if you follow that way of thinking then whats the point of having forums? Things will never change or be balanced if we never question them.

  12. #52
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Russia, Chelyabinsk (Tankograd)
    Posts
    13,849
    umm... you know... maybe it's all because you can hit while moving?
    if ranged DD move he can't do decent damage, but you can follow behind the mob and still do your damage.
    Also, melee DD has stuns(warriors,rogues,druids,paladins), bleeds(warriors, druids, rogues again) speed increasing effects (sprint, dash, intercept, heroic leap, ghost wolves, and new 85lvl druid roar).
    And don't forget about burst, look at fury warrior and shadow priest, if you lost any dot as shadow priest, or lost shadow orb buff, you will be totaly screwed. But as fury warrior, you can unleash all your strikes in ~6 seconds and sustain that DPS by autoattacks;
    If you have to kill adds and you know where they'll spawn - run to that place and be ready to hit them.
    So, my point is - look at your feet for "bad stuff", if you have a bomb, yes, you have to run away and hit boss with crosbow or heroic throw or shattering throw or deedly throw or moonfire or exorcism or death coil etc etc. Yes it's a DPS loss, but we don't want all fights be just a DPS race.

    and about raid comp.
    if you will pick 2 tanks 3 healers and 20 ranged DD, some fights will be realy hard to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  13. #53
    Range has to move FAR less than melee on almost every fight. For stuff like NRB, melee has to run all over the room while ranged just needs to move a slight amount for the jormungers, and just to ~35 yards for Icehowl, versus literally one side to another for some melee.


    if you will pick 2 tanks 3 healers and 20 ranged DD, some fights will be realy hard to do.
    1-2 Ele Shaman and a tank can handle interrupts. Otherwise you are fine.

    [11:50:45] Earthmender Duarn says: Shamanistic healing is a complex art. You can't just chain heal all day.

  14. #54
    The last few points have been pretty accurate.

    The argument here is not really about who does the most damage. That's always a wash, going back and forth between classes. It's about what you need (and what gives the least chance of failure).

    Take Saurfang, for example: yeah melee just sat on the boss and put up absurd numbers. But that's not the point. The fight was not feasible without ranged. You could have downed it with all ranged and no melee but the opposite would have been either impossible or logistically much more difficult (coordinating a melee or extra tanks to kite adds or something etc.). There may be some cleverly designed loopholes such as interrupt fights, but on the most fundamental level a ranged can do anything a melee does plus all the stuff that only a ranged can do simply because they can be either somewhere or anywhere while they do what they do instead of being in a fixed place. That is, they inherently solve one of the design challenges--positioning; they can be anywhere you need them to be.

    You can argue that one type does more or less damage than another, but you cannot argue against the logical fact that there is an inherent inequality between melee and ranged. Forget buffs and DPS, ranged are simply more versatile. You can't fix that without changing the game (making a minimum/optimal/specific dps range for all ranged etc. etc.). Blizzard didn't implement stuff like that for all ranged classes, so they try to work around it by giving different jobs to ranged and melee in each encounter. That's ok for this encounter and that encounter but it still isn't a balanced system at its core.

    The bottom line, really, is that you're much more likely to be sitting out of a raid if you're melee. It's built into the game.

  15. #55
    OP: You lost my interest of trying to understand what you are trying to say with that title of yours. Unfortunately, you only destroy for all of us.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Irony View Post
    Its hard to completely balance encounters making Melee just as viable as Range without making the fight a complete Patchwerk fight. That being said, I think you're just whining for the sake of whining.
    when one of the worlds best guilds subs out nearly all there melee just for progression something is wrong

  17. #57
    Mechagnome mypally's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    C eh N eh D eh
    Posts
    537
    very common misconception here is that because a range "had to do something" means its melee biased. The only time this is applicable is if ranged has to get out of something that melee doesnt, and that has rarely been the case in cata. Far too many mechanics punish melee harder then ranged, and far to many of the mechanics require range to do them (see the majority of add fights) due to either melee getting owned, or melee not being able to do enough dps.
    Einstien trolled Newton so hard with general relativity

  18. #58
    Pit Lord Shamslam's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Hickville, Indiana
    Posts
    2,311
    I can't comment on heroics, but as far as normals go...our melee are consistently top on the damage done and activity throughout the fight. It may be that our ranged aren't as good, but fights like Val/Ther are definitely melee friendly with the constant collapsing/splitting up.
    I once had a character named "Clamslam" but Blizzard deemed it inappropriate.
    Retired from WoW: February 19, 2011. It was fun Blizz.

  19. #59
    Something melee favored is the Festergut vomit only working on ranged. A few ranged having to burst down adds for Saurfang does not make the fight favored melee.

    [11:50:45] Earthmender Duarn says: Shamanistic healing is a complex art. You can't just chain heal all day.

  20. #60
    I agree.

    Wotlk didn't favor us either, it was balanced, there were reasons to bring a melee dps, but not in Cata.

    We do overall less damage than most ranged, we give less buffs, most of us have no CC, we die more and we have to watch out for a lot more AOE spells. And because warriors supposedly are OP in PvP, the PVE counterpart gets debuffed again, so the most gear dependant class, Fury Warriors, gets debuffed in raiding also. Theres no reason to bring a Fury Warrior right now, but there will be even less reason to bring one in 4.0.6. Now that we're talking Fury Warriors, Frost Death Knights are just an empowered version of us, they do more dps and have about the same benefits as a Fury Warrior.
    Last edited by wariofan1; 2011-01-23 at 09:38 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •