What is wrong with my guilds raids?

[Zefeh]

I'm starting to get to a level of frustration with the outcome of many of the raids my guild has been getting. What I mean by this is the amount of wipes it takes for us, as a guild, to down a boss. So far, we've downed Omnitron, Magmaw, Halfus, and Conclave but on those fights we had around 50, 25, 39, and 58 wipes respectively on each first kill. I've seen enough people on the forums saying they are running through these raids after 3-10 wipes to post, what the hell is my guild doing wrong?

Maloriak is now up to 80+ wipes with 10 or so best attempts below 50k hp
1st of all - we've only done 10 man raids so far(hope to god we get into 25 soon)
Omnitron - Wipes were caused by the following -
- A few late switches on shielded bosses
- Heals running insanely low on mana near the end of the fight(10% area) after 6:45-7 or so minutes
- BIG problem with killing Poison Protocol Oozes - kited them for 20 Seconds plus.

Magmaw -
- Wipes were mostly caused by adds going out of control
- A few were wipes were from people not moving for Pillar of Flame
- Low mana on healers

Halfus -
- Most wipes because a tank died from too much damage from either drakes etc. Need 3 tanks on 10man for this annoyingly. Feral tank goes kitty
- Other wipes - low mana on healers and enrage

Conclave -
- Tank switches on Frost and Nature bosses were most wipes - causing healers to die etc
- Add control on Nature boss

So far on Maloriak -
- Consuming Flames targets not moving out of flame breath
- Lose adds getting to boss viva healing aggro - causing 100k flame breath hits
- Too many adds getting out and overwhelming our kiting tank (2 frost packs, plus a mage to help freeze can't help 12 adds)
- Too little adds coming out (People stupidly interrupting)
- Tanks dieing in P2 (Figure I should tell the tank he can move from the fire/airtoss which I just read today . . . why he didn't notice he could move away from it is beyond me . . .)
- DPS dieing in P2 . . .
- Healers low on mana

What I want to know is if its just me, or are half these wipe reasons retarded and should be avoided completely? Most of the 10 man progression group (We split up people to get others in to make it fair for others that want to raid - which screws up things even more) I know are pretty good players. But I'm starting to worry that people aren't as good as they seem to me. These wipes are in raid groups of mostly the best of what we have, and I'm wanting to get into 25 man's because there vastly easier and more flexible. It just seems these problems in 10man might double in 25 man . . .
(Off topic - For Maloriak, the add tank has to kite the adds if there's 9+, right? Cuz our's is taking insane damage with 9 of em on him if he doesn't kite)

So, I really just ask you this - What is wrong? Is it our heals not healing enough? Is it our players failing at simple mechanics (DBM yells em out, yet some people say it's not calling it out for them . . . )? Or is it something else? Just please, answer me wtf is wrong >.< Personally, there's only 6-7 reliable people in these raids that I know I can count on, does it have to be 10? *Bangs head on wall wanting to kill all bosses before the dam next content patch*

PS - Server - Mok'Nathal, Guild - Belligerent - *crys at fail server rank of 212
*Goh . . that came out longer than I thought*

[Larcissa]

Sounds like gear might come across as a bit of an issue for your raid, mind telling us your raid comp?

Omnitron, first two points sound like a awareness check, can't really be helped no matter how much gear you have, Slimes only have 100k hp, can be slowed/stunned/rooted, easily killed. Healers should not be OOM if they stand inside Arcanotron's pools.

Magmaw, awarness check again, move out of pillars, slow adds, kite and burn. Healers get time to regen in impale phase, if they're still healing in the impale phase, you need to consider replace your healers.

Conclave, let your tanks jump first and taunt, so the aggro goes to the tank, that should solve your switches. If your healer is running low on mana, on the Frost platform, have him swap with the healer on the Air platform. If your healer on the Air platform is OOM, either he's bad or his gear isnt good enough

Maloriak, our add tank had 9 at all times, does not need to kite, that is the optimum amount, any more and it would trivialize your AOE damage. Interrupt the release abberations after you have 9 out. If your tank loses aggro to healing, he needs to L2P honestly, I've never seen tanks fail at picking up adds on Maloriak, unless it's P2, untauntable adds. If your DPS dies in P2, they probably ate a Frozen Orb, tell them to GTFO orbs. Poison Nova has to be healed through, and it's not very painful anyway.

[chuck123]

wiping is part of progression. If you wipe (lets say) 15 times on maloriak and out of that 15 times its soley due to one person fucking it up with not moving with the debuff, yes he is bad, he could have figured the 2nd time already(maybe even first).
If you still die 10 times till each and every one of you gets the debuff to wipe the raid to figure it out, your guys are slow in learning or your Raidleading/coordiantion is maybe bad for not also shouting out that "hey x, move left".
A lot of other wipes might be caused due to unsure positioning, tactics, so you might want to sort stuff on that matter aswell.
Every person has different times on learning stuff and an ability that you might grasp when you see the boss doing it the first time, someone else might needs 3 times to get it. 20 times is (imho) unacceptable and calls for replacement.
However, it wouldbe more interesting what your guilds goals are and how your overall quality of people is.

Last but not least, don't get fooled by "except lk we never needed more than 5 tries on a boss in icc". This was true only in wotlk and only on normal mode. On hm (and selected normals), your wipe numbers prolly were around the same level as you just mentioned it.

[Deleted]

Surely OP you can figure out from the reasons you posted that you simply have some retarded players. I bet not all of your wipes are because of screw ups and some are simply legitimate learning wipes.

However, it sounds like a substantial number of your wipes are solely down to people not paying attention, standing in stuff they shouldnt, not changing targets, not follow raid strategy and mechanics, basically failing at raiding which alot of people in this game unfortunately do.

You will either have to deal with slow progression or get strict on them and tell them to play better or theyre kicked and replaced. Your choice

[chuck123]

. Healers need a gearcheck if they're OOM-ing on this tbh

Untrue. If you do not use your raid cds wisely and coordinated and/or your healing assignment is not so solid, you WILL run oom. Therefore as mentioned above, to me it seems a little bit like your raidleader is maybe overwhelmed by what his "job" includes, IF you other players don't take some of the work off his chest (healers coordinationg themselves) CD usage sorted pre fight and many many more things.

[Larcissa]

wiping is part of progression. If you wipe (lets say) 15 times on maloriak and out of that 15 times its soley due to one person fucking it up with not moving with the debuff, yes he is bad, he could have figured the 2nd time already(maybe even first).

I completely agree, in Cata raids you cannot possibly carry a single baddie unlike in WOTLK, remember Naxx Spider Wing? Or OS? You could easily bring people who don't have a clue what raiding is, and still down content. But in Cata, no way, establish a core group of 10 people who you know can and will perform well, and you will get content done.

[Deleted]

It took us a while to learn Magmaw as well, and some problems you mention sound familiar.

When you say the wipes on Magmaw are mostly caused by uncontrolled adds, people not moving from Pillar and healers going oom, I think your problem may be caused by DPS not doing their job.

Uncontrolled adds: either DPS is not giving priority on killing (switching to) the lava parasites or they may just be low on DPS, either of these two. Check Recount: the ranged DPS should be doing a significant amount of DPS on the lava parasites; if not, then they are slacking. Also, generally speaking, DPS on Magmaw should be over 10K. If they are well below 10K, then they should go back to heroics and work on their class knowledge and DPS rotations.

Not moving from pillar of fire: an awareness check. Those who still get hit by that after a few practice runs should get their act together.

Healer mana issues: this is usually caused by the raid damage taken from uncontrolled parasites and not moving from pillar of flame. If you execute the fight correctly, healers have about 15 secs to regen mana when Magmaw is spiked. That should be enough. However as long the raid keeps taking unnecessary damage, then even taking 3 healers will not prevent your healers running oom. Although it shows only a small part of their performance, healers should be doing about 10K+ HPS as well.

[hvidgaard]

Calling his fellow raiders retarded is quite harsh. Fact are, they're not the best raiders, but maybe they're just learning? I mean we all started somewhere and was a "retard".

To OP, I can tell quite easily, that the situational awareness of your raid group is far from optimal. This expansion seems to emphasize the individual raiders performance. It's not possible for healers to make up for slack of moving out of bad stuff, and it's unreasonable to expect that good dps can make up for the bad dps. If I'm not mistaken, Tankspot have some guide about how to be a good raider - but it all boils down to: Be aware of what is happening around you (this includes knowing the fight and ability) and know your rotation (be it dps, tank or healer).

[Larcissa]

Untrue. If you do not use your raid cds wisely and coordinated and/or your healing assignment is not so solid, you WILL run oom. Therefore as mentioned above, to me it seems a little bit like your raidleader is maybe overwhelmed by what his "job" includes, IF you other players don't take some of the work off his chest (healers coordinationg themselves) CD usage sorted pre fight and many many more things.

Think I got carried away, yes it's entirely possible to OOM on Maloriak, I think i'm just used to never having my guild's healers complain about mana that I ignore this, I apologize.

---------- Post added 2011-01-17 at 09:03 AM ----------

Calling his fellow raiders retarded is quite harsh. Fact are, they're not the best raiders, but maybe they're just learning? I mean we all started somewhere and was a "retard".

Edited post, figured I got carried away

[chuck123]

The problem here is, you mention the reason you wipe, but we cannot see how you got there.

Let's take magmaw (without trivialized dk strat).

1) Are your ranged and healers stacked and know what there second position is ?
2) How many and what kind of ranged do you have
3) Do your ranged slow the adds and do you maybe have one brained person that you can have "NEVER STAND INFRONT OF ME" when killing adds to not get the debuff ?
4) Do your melees do their job with chaining fast.
5) Does your tank use cds when getting debuffed ?
6) Do the adds go down in time aka is the dps fine WHEN the adds are slowed ?
7) Whats your healing setup ?
8) Do your healers regain mana in the 100% dmg taken phase
9) When do you use hero ?
10) Do you synergize raidCDs such as hymn of hope/divine hymn form your shadows if needed ?
11) Do you use a voicecom ?
....

The list is rather long, but this could give a more reasonable picture to address issues than playing the "he bad" game. Sure, you might have some very special snowflakes in your raid, but a lot sounds like no coordiantion from the leading side of things.

[A Day to Remember]

What my guild does on Magmaw about controlling adds is only having Hunters stand outside of the hitbox, and it sounds like u have 2 Hunters. (like my guild) Frost and Explosive traps at our feet at all times, and when the pillar pops just kite to the other side. they will be slowed as easily kited by said hunters. we are the only 2 DPS that switch to the adds in fact, its just become so routine to us in the 4-5 weeks we have done it.

Halfus is entirely dependant on the drake comp, it can be faceroll easy (nether, slate, time warden) or it can be complete chaos hell (whelps, time warden, whatever the shadow nova guy is) and your strat will change depending on the setup.

Omnitron is really about communication, if people dont switch off sheilds then your going to wipe, healers going OOM should definatley have priority over dps going into Arcanotron's puddles if Electron is up also. Adds need to die, no excuse for that.

Maloriak we had a bit of trouble on at first, being short melee dps we had very few interupts (interupting the release in green phase is vital if your dps is lacking a little). We had our warrior tank the adds, for unlimited taunts. Had a hunter (me) breaking ice blocks, which cant be broken until the person is over ~70k health. For the red phase, we had out marked person go to the right (since he turns about 25-35degrees to the left when he casts the fire cone)

and Conclave isnt a fight that ive seen from any view point other then the Wind boss. But we start all the DPS on the life boss, zerg him until the first ultimate, then switch as necessary. A healer and I on the Wind boss at all times, so i cant comment on the add control or anthing of that sort.

[Deleted]

See a lot of healers "low on mana" wipes idk if it's because your fights is going on forever or just dam healers as in the spam DL, for holy pala as play myself idk what spells for other healers use in compa, but i healed a raid on omnitron with a resto shammy dying within 3 min for fight and did go all the way but have to get an innervete at around BL pop but still tell.

It's also sounds like you dps ain't quick enough on add on any boss, they need to be!

[Rockmanzero]

Just gonna make very long story short, are you guys even using vent and second why 2 tanks on maloriak, since when is it 12 adds and not 9, third are you wiping on the same thing over and over again. Then you need to go and get people replaced.

One handy chart for all of them is this one was on front page 2 daysw ago: Like this one for fails.

[Elvy]

In cata healers can't compensate others' errors anymore. Always check the source of dmg and try to realise if it's the classic stood in fire issue. If all guild members can successfully run thru heroics, basics should have been learned. A healer that isn't using efficient healing spells hardly can finish a heroic dungeon. For example, a disc priest won't spam shields and flash heals anymore, but will rapture off icd shield and train of thought greater heal.

On magmaw demo lock and fire mage combo is awesome - immolation aura, demon leap, shadowflame (glyphed), hellfire while running away, blast wave, dragon's breathe, impact combustion and so on. Freeze trap from hunter helps aswell.

[Callypso]

If you think 25m is vastly more easier and flexible (as you state in your original post) then I think you'll be in for a suprise. My experience sofar is that 25m is overall slightly harder, with the exception of a few bosses (Omnitron for example we oneshotted on 25m with 5-10 people being completely new to the fight (we did some 10m before our official raiding started)).

[Herecius]

For Maloriak, only do 12 adds if you're going for the achievement. Otherwise, never go above 9 at a time.

[chuck123]

If you think 25m is vastly more easier and flexible (as you state in your original post) then I think you'll be in for a suprise. My experience sofar is that 25m is overall slightly harder, with the exception of a few bosses (Omnitron for example we oneshotted on 25m with 5-10 people being completely new to the fight (we did some 10m before our official raiding started)).

Maloriak 10 is way harder than maloriak 25 for example.
Cptr Planet on the other hand, 25 people with possible lightning rod fails is another matter

[Azore]

@te

your problem sound like you have players who are learning slow if they learn at all.
serious tunnel vision problem.
its ok to whipe because something is new but if the same person does the same mistake every try after more than 5 whipes he simply is bad.

[Zefeh]

The problem here is, you mention the reason you wipe, but we cannot see how you got there.

The list is rather long, but this could give a more reasonable picture to address issues than playing the "he bad" game. Sure, you might have some very special snowflakes in your raid, but a lot sounds like no coordiantion from the leading side of things.

Specifically on Magmaw the 3 or so times we've killed him we've had 3 ranged, me(SV Hunter), a mage or another hunter, and a boomy. Now, I'm not sure how well boomy dps is right now but I have a feeling it is insanely low as he pulls more or less 11k dps consistently. He's usually lowest on the aoe dmg on the adds and other wipes on that boss where probably caused by fail ranged dps. (Hunter disengaged out of Pillar back towards the door every time instead of towards a side of the room . . .) Not to mention consistant people getting hit by Pillar . . .

Guess I'm going to have to start telling people they fail . . . guild majority wants to be a top 5 raiding guild on my server (7th right now - I know, pathetic) while I want to be #1. The healers are all competent healers, the holy pally is also the best geared in the server (Top guild has done 12/12 already and we, 4/12, have some higher geared people than them with bought/archy gear . . . )

But are most of these really fail player wipes? I just really don't want to admit some of my Wrath buddies are as fail as they might be . . . .
Btw, healing assignments - assigning groups to healers not just tanks - is that a big thing to skip over that shouldn't be?

And Maloriak - 9 adds rape the kite tank so is something wrong here?

[Deleted]

Sounds like your main problem is bad healers who don't know how to manage their mana in Cataclysm. Also bad swapping from DPS seems to happen in many fights.

P.S You don't need 3 tanks for Halfus, MT can take the boss and 1 drake if he has to.