Difficulty is not the problem, LFD is.

[Zoma]

How about being grouped with people who have completed the dungeon roughly the same amount of times as you? Make brackets.
[0-1 completions] - Beginners
[2-5 completions] - Knows mechanics
[6-10 completions] - Knows mechanics, and probably willing to skip optional bosses
[11+ completions] - Can clear instance while talking in guild chat and alt-tabbing mid-fight

Needs some fine tuning, such as the fact that since the dungeon is random, it may not know which bracket to put you in, if you've cleared Deadmines 20 times and have never seen Halls of Origination. Another problem is the "willing to skip optional bosses" I added, which may not be true for those wanting off-spec sets or have just had bad luck with main-spec drops, though the simplest solution would likely be guild run or the option to enter a lower bracket than the one you are in.

It's a work in progress, and one not likely to be implemented. Just idle thoughts.

[spectrefax]

It would help if they provided more incentive for quality players or better geared players in LFD. I'm i346+ in Tanking and DPS set so there is really no use for me now to do random heroics. I'll wait for to do my 1 VP run with guild member only group so I can get the orbs to craft plate gear for the rest of them and not have to put up with vote kicking through 3 groups of horrible players to get those couple DPS that wont stand in the fire...

One thing I'd like to see is them trying to match people up from the same server when ever possible. Would help the more people from your own personal "community" were there. People tend to put in a little more effort, would also help people find or recruit for guilds.

Maybe if they added some more uses for JP or something I'd put up with pure random LFD but until then I'll just run with guild members or level up another 85.

Pretty solid idea, i agree.

[Deleted]

So...

I played this pretty game named "Dragonica". It's a side scrolling mmo, it's pretty nice and fun. There is a strange way to rate players, basically it's made into combo-streaks and damage done. It's also taken into account if you are smart enough to go behind mobs to do multiplied damage.

So my thought is, can't blizzard implement some kind of "watcher" that rates all player's actions? Melee dps? Stay behind boss xxx% of time, stay in patches on the ground xxxx% of time etc etc.

As a tank it would rate the threat, the damage taken, the avoided mechanics and the correct performance.

In addition, the whole group will be rated by average iLvl wore by partecipants (the more the players are geared, the less they are rated.), clear times, player swaps and so on.

Pretty complex, i know, but it would make people rated on performance.

[CT001]

I agree 100%. If only there were a way to combine the community aspects to the LFD system. Because LFD is so insanely successful they will never remove it.

I've done a few (very few) LFDs that had some amazing players, we clicked very well and ran multiple dungeons. Then we lamented about not seeing each other again and went our separate ways, never to see each other again. Its not grouping with idiots that bother me, its that after sifting through 100's of them I have to part ways with those few ppl I hit it off with.

A simple intern solution would be to allow manual formation of x-real groups. I should be able to add people in other realms to my friends list (and I know I can RealId them, but I don't know them THAT well, I don't want them to have access to bother me on any toon, or in another game, or e-mail me), whisper them, group with them, run stuff with them.

That alone would solve 50% of the problems right there.

[Littlespoon]

So many QQ threads have popped up since cataclysm arrived detailing the 'shortcomings' of the LFD tool and how 'Heroics are too hard and dont have any welfare epics!'. I have 2 85 Healers (soon to be 3) and I can say, without a single doubt, that there is nothing wrong with the LFD tool or dungeon difficulty - its the DPS in it causing the problem.

The LFD tool idea is awesome, but primarily caters towards the 'casual' player base who don't know all their ABC's and, quite often, dont have a clue about anything. And as Tanks and Healers are the minority roles in the game, the vast majority of the LFD users are DPS. From my experience, these people have very low situational awareness and no ability to 'think on their feet'. They die to stupid things and you simply cannot count on them to do anything right. When I queue for my daily randoms, I prepare for a few wipes.

I run with the same tank, more or less, so that makes it more tolerable as I know he is competant - but most LFD DPS just don't perform their role correctly. Unfortunately, a solid tank and healer combo isn't enough to prop up 3 bad DPS these days. Why they perform so badly is anyones' guess - be it because they are genuinely ignorant, they don't care, they are casual - I don't know - but this is the main reason why most tanks and healers I know won't use LFD. Usually the LFD DPS I encounter are the most abusive, arrogant, pigheaded people I've met in WoW - and they cry about absolutely anything and everything..

Heroic Dungeons are not overly difficult if engaged with a suitable level of common-sense and situational awareness. What the majority of the LFD DPS don't care to try to understand is that Blizzard have made primary roles harder - especially in the case of healers. We don't appreciate LFD DPS making healers and tanks jobs harder because they cant be bothered to put a little bit of extra effort in to interrupt, not break cc, avoid stuff, use some initiative. I really wish there were more consequences for DPS who perform badly - perhaps it would empower those bads out there to actually improve. If tanks or healers perform badly there is punishment (people die = you feel bad) and then then added raging from the DPS. If DPS die because the didnt interrupt, broke cc etc etc its automatically the tank or healers fault.

LFD tool was implemented to help the casual playerbase complete aspects of the game without a guild and, this is where I get harsh, if you are a casual and you don't like the queue times - perhaps you should get a guild and run with them.

[Arainie]

First of all, to make the dungeon finder work more smoothly we needs a system that recognizes failure and reports what went wrong to the group. You could also somewhat use this system as one valid kick reason, for example a player repeatedly dying to standing in fire would be eligible for removal since he either has not learned from his mistakes or simply doesn't pay enough attention. Being kicked with a dungeon finder based reason will be a wakeup call for some people.

On top of this, I'd like to see a sort of %DNF (Did Not Finish) system used in many online sports games to distinguish quitters from those who can cope with defeat. Basically, whenever you leave a dungeon group (as one of the first two (maybe more/less?) leaving, the remaining three do not get penalized as the group is already falling apart) or get kicked from a dungeon (perhaps only with a reason based on the dungeon finder failure system?) your DNF goes up. Players with a high %DNF will not be grouped together with players who have a low %DNF, while players with an average %DNF might end up with either. This isn't a measurement of skill directly even if a highly skilled player is likely to complete more of his dungeons, it's a measurement of dedication. If you leave after one wipe, you clearly do not wish to put time into it or help others learn the fights. Players who stick with the group are rewarded with a low %DNF and will generally end up in better groups as a result of their dedication. This would also stop healers and tanks from leaving right away based on the group's gear level or the instance, knowing that they can get an instant queue as soon as their debuff is gone, since they would be penalized in the long run for making an active choice to abandon their group.

I'm fairly certain none of these systems would work right away, but with some tweaking they'd be able to both take care of the "noobs" who refuse to learn and the elitists who refuse to teach. If you don't want to risk ending up with someone less geared or skilled without being able to kick them right away, you always have the option of forming your own group. I don't think you should be able to kick a player simply because his gear is not quite at your standards (although if it's terrible and he obviously puts not effort in to it at all that's another story). This comes from a dedicated raider (healer to be specific) who's been fully heroic geared since long before christmas, so I'm not trying to find a loophole for me to leech or anything.

So to sum it up. You will be rewarded with good groups if you stick with your group more often, while quitters will be somewhat punished ending up with generally worse groups. There has to be a way to work your way back up again even while in bad groups, something along the lines of finishing a dungeon in a high %DNF group significantly lowers your %DNF rating compared to finishing one in a low %DNF group. Anyway, that was my two cent!

[Spoonman]

Smash together Achievements so they are account wide and then make a filter that sorts players together depending on how many points you got. Player with a high amount, gets other players with about the same amount.

[CT001]

LFD tool was implemented to help the casual playerbase complete aspects of the game without a guild and, this is where I get harsh, if you are a casual and you don't like the queue times - perhaps you should get a guild and run with them.

Except they award valor points, not justice points for completion. And there-in lies the subtle difference.

If it was a casual-only situation, then JP for completion alone would be warranted. But VP allows access to the absolute best items in the game, the ones usually reserved for the hard-core (if you want to call it that, I'd call it the remotely competent, but I'm rather cynical in that regard). If you're in a raiding guild, you're expected to get your 70 VP/day, its not really an option.

Now sure I can run my 5-mans totally in-guild. But there are far more dps/healers than there are tanks (this is standard for any guild, u don't bring 5 tanks to a 25-man raid), and so raiders are being thrown in with the casuals. Blizzard knows this AND is banking on this, because if it was casual only, no one would run it past the 1st week. I and 1/2 my guild wouldn't step into a LFD again if not for the VP, and I know that goes for most guilds out there.

[Pascal]

Everyone who wants people to be able to rate each other need to go visit a high school for a few days.

Absolute most terrible idea that has EVER been conceived. You complain about trolls, jerks, greifers, and you want these people to be able to rate you? After a couple of minutes with you? Are you really that delusional?

[Littlespoon]

Now sure I can run my 5-mans totally in-guild. But there are far more dps/healers than there are tanks (this is standard for any guild, u don't bring 5 tanks to a 25-man raid), and so raiders are being thrown in with the casuals. Blizzard knows this AND is banking on this, because if it was casual only, no one would run it past the 1st week.

I wasn't saying that LFD is exclusively casual, but it was developed to HELP casuals. Of course that was their intent. Theres nothing wrong with that. I dont mind grouping with a random casual DPS who is undergeared as long as they are willing to perform the best they can - but sadly, most of them don't - thats the problem.

[ganette]

So many QQ threads have popped up since cataclysm arrived detailing the 'shortcomings' of the LFD tool and how 'Heroics are too hard and dont have any welfare epics!'. I have 2 85 Healers (soon to be 3) and I can say, without a single doubt, that there is nothing wrong with the LFD tool or dungeon difficulty - its the DPS in it causing the problem.

The LFD tool idea is awesome, but primarily caters towards the 'casual' player base who don't know all their ABC's and, quite often, dont have a clue about anything. And as Tanks and Healers are the minority roles in the game, the vast majority of the LFD users are DPS. From my experience, these people have very low situational awareness and no ability to 'think on their feet'. They die to stupid things and you simply cannot count on them to do anything right. When I queue for my daily randoms, I prepare for a few wipes.

I run with the same tank, more or less, so that makes it more tolerable as I know he is competant - but most LFD DPS just don't perform their role correctly. Unfortunately, a solid tank and healer combo isn't enough to prop up 3 bad DPS these days. Why they perform so badly is anyones' guess - be it because they are genuinely ignorant, they don't care, they are casual - I don't know - but this is the main reason why most tanks and healers I know won't use LFD. Usually the LFD DPS I encounter are the most abusive, arrogant, pigheaded people I've met in WoW - and they cry about absolutely anything and everything..

Heroic Dungeons are not overly difficult if engaged with a suitable level of common-sense and situational awareness. What the majority of the LFD DPS don't care to try to understand is that Blizzard have made primary roles harder - especially in the case of healers. We don't appreciate LFD DPS making healers and tanks jobs harder because they cant be bothered to put a little bit of extra effort in to interrupt, not break cc, avoid stuff, use some initiative. I really wish there were more consequences for DPS who perform badly - perhaps it would empower those bads out there to actually improve.

LFD tool was implemented to help the casual playerbase complete aspects of the game without a guild and, this is where I get harsh, if you are a casual and you don't like the queue times - perhaps you should get a guild and run with them.

100% agree with everything you have said here. people forget the fact that the lfd system was implemented for those unable to form groups, to be able to. it was to simplify putting 5 people of the right combination together and thrust them into a dungeon. it was never stated, mentioned, or promised that it would be 5 people of relevant skill for said dungeon. tie this in, with the fact that about 30% of these people are in pvp gear, holding tank gear(while dpsing) or vice versa, in their bags to gain entry to these heroics etc... and you of course are guaranteed to have issues.

its not the systems problem, it is yours. part of the lfd system is understanding this, and preparing for a long wait to get in, the possibility of favoritism once in, getting kicked from the group, having a bad tank/heals/dps or several, failing utterly in the dungeon(possibly at your fault) etc..(i can list 10 more here but its unnecessary)

the main problem i see, is people expect everything to be easy. those who like the way cataclysm is, difficulty wise, generally dont use the lfd system much, because of the above mentioned reasons, they run in guild group, server pugs, or with friends.

those who NEED the lfd system are usually the ones on these forums complaining about it. me personally i dont like it, i dont use it, other than to get insta ported to the dungeon with my guild group. and yes i know thats a luxury, to be in a guild where you can do these, as some are not, but whos problem is this?

the only thing i would say needs to be changed with the LFD system, honestly, is the multiple player ability to queue prior to going in. i dont like it, its one of the main problems with it. anytime there are more than one person from the same clique, in a party, there is going to be favoritism, be it in how you roll for gear, who gets kicked, etc... if 3 people form a group and pug the other 2 in lfd, and something goes wrong and someone is to be kicked it WILL ALWAYS be one of the 2 pugged players. even if the fault lies on the 3 man party.

but this will never happen so theres no sense asking for it. people enjoy playing with their friends, and if unable to join the lfd system with them, the system will probably fail.

casual players use this system to get groups, maybe theyre not social enough to know people, maybe they dont care to know people, maybe they just want to do a dungeon here and there, i dont know, but the casual approach to heroics just doesnt cut it. if your casual, stick to casual things. if you venture beyond casual things and are a casual player, stop crying about the results.

but the bottom line is, trying to depend on a system to rate players, form a group, etc.. is ridiculous. they never intended it to be a super ZOMG matchmaking service, if you want that, join eharmony! this is a game, and its there to put 5 people together who SHOULD be able to do the job. thats it, so stop looking for it to be more than it is!

[spectrefax]

Everyone who wants people to be able to rate each other need to go visit a high school for a few days.

Absolute most terrible idea that has EVER been conceived. You complain about trolls, jerks, greifers, and you want these people to be able to rate you? After a couple of minutes with you? Are you really that delusional?

yea this is a good point.

I really think the best option might be some way to implement some kind of x-realm community so that, like another poster said, that once you do stumble upon some people you enjoy running with you can /friend them and run with them again. After a while running LFD and adding x-realm friends and regular realm friends and guildies, you would pretty much have a really solid list for always getting a decent group at your hour of play.

[Leven]

An incentive that might work without being utterly abused are more abilities, talents or zone buffs with effects like Rude Interruption - if you interrupt things, or CC something, or stand behind something, you get a damage boost with a great big "Bonus Damage!" alert on screen if you've got beginner tooltips on. If you break CC in defensive stance/other tanking presence, you get a damage boost. It's hard to penalise people for mistakes without making the dungeon much harder than it already would be, but you could have immediately obvious feedback like knockbacks for people who break CC as a non-tank (actually useful for skilled people who want to kite things!).

[Cavall]

Then perhaps you were one of those players that no one wanted to group with? I had no issues finding groups (as dps) prior to LFD. I wait much longer now than I ever did before. The people who like the LFD are the very ones who could not find groups without it, aka the anti-social and/or incompetent. Forcing good players to play with poor players by bribing them with VP does not fix the underlying problem.

I sort of agree with this. I play tanks and my significant other plays healers, I made sure to friend all the good DPS we found and message them first when forming up for heroic runs. And we regularly got messages back from them for dungeons as well.

You don't really see that anymore. The closest you get is when someone is forming a raid in LFG, but they're just demanding you have a GS twice as high as necessary for the content.

[Hraklea]

Absolute most terrible idea that has EVER been conceived. You complain about trolls, jerks, greifers, and you want these people to be able to rate you? After a couple of minutes with you? Are you really that delusional?

Somebody put this post at the opening page of MMO-Champion.com.

A lot of people are asking for a rating system. There's your answer. You guys says that "I only get noobs on LFD" and then you want the same "noobs" to say you're pr0 and you should play with players better then them? Do you really believe this is going to happen? Do you believe in Santa Claus too?

[ganette]

yea this is a good point.

I really think the best option might be some way to implement some kind of x-realm community so that, like another poster said, that once you do stumble upon some people you enjoy running with you can /friend them and run with them again. After a while running LFD and adding x-realm friends and regular realm friends and guildies, you would pretty much have a really solid list for always getting a decent group at your hour of play.

now this is a promising idea.

but i propose something slightly different, how about the option at the end of a run, to not rate players, but decide if you would like to run with them again. maybe a "do you wish to run with this player in the future? ()yes ()no ()dont care" type thing.

then this would only effect whether or not you are queued with said player again in the future, then the next time you queue in lfd for a group, this list of your personal choices is compared across the list of players and it could make it more likely you are grouped with the players you would like to be grouped with(or others youve not rated yet) and not be grouped with those youve chosen to never be grouped with again..

i dont know how difficult this would be to implement , but i could see it as being a problem solver over the long run. yes it would take running a good bit to get your personal selection set up over time, but in the end i think it would be a good thing. in the least you would only ever get grouped with that one really bad player(skill/attitude/etc) once.

[Kurgosh]

We have ratings for PvP, based on win-loss record. I don't see why you couldn't have a rating for PvE content based on the same sort of thing.

One thing I've noticed is that LFD pugs are less competent and less dedicated now than they were in mid-December when everybody was even more undergeared, and still learning content. I figure this is largely because anybody who, on the weekend of Dec. 10-12, was already 85 and geared to leap into heroics was going to be a pretty hard core player. Even if you're undergeared and learning with strangers, a bunch of hard core players who are trying to gear up for raiding ASAP are going to be, on average, better players and more willing to put the time and effort into fixing problems. They've been there, done that, in raiding situations. They can recognize competence and improvement, which gives them the incentive to keep at it. Casual players often* don't have that kind of skill, they don't have that kind of experience, and they often don't even have the tools to recognize the difference between an encounter that you need to make an adjustment to defeat and an encounter that your group doesn't have the skill or power to defeat at all.

I spent 2 hours clearing Stonecore as the first or second LFD random I ever did. So did the healer, the tank, and one of the other DPS. One DPS quit partway through. It was a ton of fun. Honestly, it felt like a guild progression raid. We'd wipe, discuss things, fix the problem then wipe on the next mechanic that we didn't have quite right. Then fix it, and down the encounter. And really, it was progression content at the time. Every one of the four of us who stuck with it the whole time was what I would consider appropriately geared, but sporting a piece or two of 'bag gear' to meet the 329 cutoff. I can't imagine a pug doing that now - we aren't quite at the WotLK zerg level yet, but the patience and adaptability isn't in the pug pool any more. Those players have moved on to hitting a daily for Valor with a guild group. They aren't farming Justice and 346 drops any more.

*Some do - and just choose not to invest the time in the game that the more hard core players put in. It's a generalization, not an indictment of all casual players.

[Voltigeuse]

Easy way to solve LFD problem is to expand the ignore list, also make it account bound so that all of my alts can ignore all of yours.

Profit.

[Synnz]

All I can say is wow. You sit here and QQ that people play this game casually. Like WoW is to be a freaking job and it is what you do for 8 hours of the day and that Blizzard caters to them. Well you know what people. There are a CRAP load of people that play this game casually and play it well. Me being one of them. I am a tank and have been tanking since TBC. Saying that LFD needs to be tweeked is a joke. The problem is not the casual player or LFD and just because you think you are elite that you need special features for LFD is a joke. The problem is with the players that started playing in WotLK where DPS could go off and hit whatever the heck they wanted and they would not die!

DPS learn how to target! You do not need special symbols over the mobs to know a target order. Look at what the freaking tank is attacking and attack the same thing! If it seem the health is not going down then tab until you find the right mob! Yes a good tank should tab spamming to protect these stupid dps players but I do not see why the tank should have the full responsibility on them to protect these bad players! if I remember is there not a /assist player name type function that you can macro?

Another thing you are going to have to face here people is Blizzard is losing players because of this release. So to get them back or attempt to get the back be prepared for nerfs! They will always happen no matter what! Blizzard will never get this game 100% right and will keep changing things all the time. It is one of the worst parts of this company is they cant decide on making a skill/profession/class ect without changing the mechanics of it a few months later and changing it so it is nothing like how it use to be. Get use to it and quit QQing over it.

There are good players and there are bad players. If you have a moronic dps join your LFD group and they are dying cause they cant target then tell them what they are doing wrong. Don't be a total dick over it because for god sakes there are enough dicks in this game the way it is and it needs to be cleaned up! Instead of coming here QQing that LFD sucks and because I am elite I need special features is complete and utter crap! Get some common courtesy and learn how to teach players, tell them what they are doing wrong, and if they don't listen then there is always the KICK feature!

Just my two cents!

[Sylla]

Lets just put it this way. If a solution to 'fix' the LFD tool to make perfect groups every single time with no long queues existed .... in the absolutely HUGE volume of threads on MMO champ alone on the subject we would not only have worked it out but have cured cancer in the process too.