Molten Fury Question

[pallyballz]

Pretty simple question but still important. Should I pop all my CD's as Fire on Time Warp or when the boss is at or lower than 35% health for Molten Fury? Im always curious if it is even working because no buff or debuff pops up saying it's active.

[Deleted]

Generally, Time Warp/Bloodlust is used in that region anyway as other classes also have an increased damage buff, similar to MF, and heralds when the boss is at its most dangerous so a quick burn is needed in the execute phase. If it's popped early at ~40% or so, just burn through that extra 5% as normal, but if you see a good oppertunity for a combustion at this stage, take it; it will likely tick into the MF range.
If for some un-godly reason you're using TW/BL at the start of the fight, sure, blow your CDs; they'll probably be off CD by the time you get into MF range again.
As for if MF works, it should be immediately noticeable; at 35% you should start to see 40k pyro crits instead of 30ks, 30k fireball crits, instead of ~25ks etc.*

*Procs depending, of course, but you should still see a big difference in the upper-limit of your crits.

[Deleted]

What CD's are you talking about if you mean trinkets at molten fury but only other CD i can think you mean is combustion and that should always be used when you get your best dots up (not always easy) i cant think of any fire CD's that you would pop on time warp as nothing really benifits but even trinket CD's depending when you use time warp as they are not normaly long CD's so depends if you can let me know what CD's you mean exactly can give you a better idea sorry could not be more help
Althire

[reverendball]

mirror image and fire orb just off the top of my head
but orb should be part of ur rotation anyway
try and get a Power Infusion mebbe?

[Swizzle]

What CD's are you talking about if you mean trinkets at molten fury but only other CD i can think you mean is combustion and that should always be used when you get your best dots up (not always easy) i cant think of any fire CD's that you would pop on time warp as nothing really benifits but even trinket CD's depending when you use time warp as they are not normaly long CD's so depends if you can let me know what CD's you mean exactly can give you a better idea sorry could not be more help
Althire

Synapse Springs, Lifeblood, Berserking, Blood Fury, Heart of Ignacious, and Rocket Barrage come readily to mind.

[Orinoco]

I've never understood why I get so many requests for TW at the start of the fight, so many times in random heroics i've been told I need to pop it at the start because it'll help- this happens most if we wipe; i'll get a request while corpse running to pop it at the start. Once or twice i've even been 'told off' for contributing to a wipe for not popping it early. Just... grrrrrrrr.

[ElScorcho]

It's a common misconception that BL needs to be saved for the last 35%, when in reality it isn't so. Unless there's a specific mechanic that asks for it, you're usually better off popping it early when it will sync with all procs and cds. BL reduces the uptime of Molten Fury and similar buffs, it does not however affect the duration of cds and procs.

About saving your CDs:

It's obviously better if you can pop them at Molten Fury, but only if saving them does not mean you will lose an activation during the fight.

[Deleted]

It's a common misconception that BL needs to be saved for the last 35%, when in reality it isn't so. Unless there's a specific mechanic that asks for it, you're usually better off popping it early when it will sync with all procs and cds. BL reduces the uptime of Molten Fury and similar buffs, it does not however affect the duration of cds and procs.

Rubbish. Yes, if there's a specific part of the boss mechanic that requires TW/BL at some point, then use it then, but from a pure-DPS standpoint, the execute phase is always the time to use it.

"... increasing melee, ranged, and spell casting speed by 30% for all party and raid members. Lasts 40 sec."

30% increased speed for 40 seconds; in effect, you 'do' the same amount in 40 seconds that you otherwise would of done in 52 seconds.
In this case, it's a straight 12% increase to DPS from MF used in conjunction with TW/BL, vs. normal damage in conjunction with BL/TW. Here's some paper-cloth maths for additional damage:
Normal DPS: 15k , MF DPS: 16.8k , 12 seconds
Normal&BL/TW: 180k damage
MF&BL/TW: 201.6k damage

The only time that BL/TW reduces the effective uptime of MF and other effects is when it's wasted by waiting until <52 seconds to the bosses death (2.5-3 minute boss fight). As for syncing procs, RNG decides when procs happen, not you. The game will happily let you sit around for that 40 seconds with no procs at all; inversely, if you're sitting there waiting for them to happen before using TW, the rest of the DPS may already of had their procs all at once and are now looking at an ICD for the entirety of TW.
Cooldowns equate to a burst in your DPS. The same principle applies to them as to flat-DPS; with added haste, the more ticks Combustion does, the more casts you can do with your Synapse Spring'd Fireballs and Pyroblasts, and so forth. - Adding another 12% to these makes them all the more potent.
If you complain that they won't be off cooldown before the execute phase of the fight begins, after doing an initial burn and a sensible Combustion, then you really have to ask yourself if BL/TW was really needed in the first place.

[Swindley]

Rubbish. Yes, if there's a specific part of the boss mechanic that requires TW/BL at some point, then use it then, but from a pure-DPS standpoint, the execute phase is always the time to use it.

"... increasing melee, ranged, and spell casting speed by 30% for all party and raid members. Lasts 40 sec."

30% increased speed for 40 seconds; in effect, you 'do' the same amount in 40 seconds that you otherwise would of done in 52 seconds.
In this case, it's a straight 12% increase to DPS from MF used in conjunction with TW/BL, vs. normal damage in conjunction with BL/TW. Here's some paper-cloth maths for additional damage:
Normal DPS: 15k , MF DPS: 16.8k , 12 seconds
Normal&BL/TW: 180k damage
MF&BL/TW: 201.6k damage

The only time that BL/TW reduces the effective uptime of MF and other effects is when it's wasted by waiting until <52 seconds to the bosses death (2.5-3 minute boss fight). As for syncing procs, RNG decides when procs happen, not you. The game will happily let you sit around for that 40 seconds with no procs at all; inversely, if you're sitting there waiting for them to happen before using TW, the rest of the DPS may already of had their procs all at once and are now looking at an ICD for the entirety of TW.
Cooldowns equate to a burst in your DPS. The same principle applies to them as to flat-DPS; with added haste, the more ticks Combustion does, the more casts you can do with your Synapse Spring'd Fireballs and Pyroblasts, and so forth. - Adding another 12% to these makes them all the more potent.
If you complain that they won't be off cooldown before the execute phase of the fight begins, after doing an initial burn and a sensible Combustion, then you really have to ask yourself if BL/TW was really needed in the first place.

This has actually been researched and calculated on elitistjerks etc.

The general idea is that it's better to pop Heroism at the start, unless there are spesific mechanics where you need to burn faster.

There are a few reasons for this.

1. More people are alive during the start
2. Procs and cd's are allways ready at the start, so people can get full benefit during Heroism.
3. You'll get faster down to Molten fury range
4. Popping Heroism during MF will actually make MF time last shorter, so the net total dps gain disapears.

I know it intiutive to pop Heroism during MF/execute range, but this has been thoroughly calculated and tested and actually not true.

[Skarrd]

This has actually been researched and calculated on elitistjerks etc.

The general idea is that it's better to pop Heroism at the start, unless there are spesific mechanics where you need to burn faster.

There are a few reasons for this.

1. More people are alive during the start
2. Procs and cd's are allways ready at the start, so people can get full benefit during Heroism.
3. You'll get faster down to Molten fury range
4. Popping Heroism during MF will actually make MF time last shorter, so the net total dps gain disapears.

I know it intiutive to pop Heroism during MF/execute range, but this has been thoroughly calculated and tested and actually not true.

Bolded the most important bullet point, though all are accurate.

Lust at the start and during execute range were proven to be pretty much equal during wrath. You'll do extra super bonus dps in MF range with lust, whereas with it at the start you do regular sort of extra dps with procs/lust, then regular extra dps with MF. It balances out the virtually the same. Given that not everybody has a MF range, it seems to make sense to use it at the start to make it easier to have everybody's cooldowns 100% of the time. Syncing 37 mixes of 1m 2m 3m 4m and 5m CD's among 25 people becomes complicated and is only worth the extra effort if there's a burn or damage buff phase. Everything is guaranteed to sync at the start, so it's the safer bet.

[Deleted]

Since so many people were advocating to it, I did a bit more maths, using a simulated fight length instead of the narrow segment I did before. It showed me that it just changed when the execute phase was entered, as opposed to changing the fight length as a whole.
Either you're all right and I owe ElScorchio and apology, or else my maths sucks and I need to take a long walk off a short pier to clear my head.
I like to think it's the latter since logic dictates otherwise, but numbers don't lie...

/violin

[Swizzle]

The biggest problem is that on some bosses, you don't WANT to extend MF range since the boss has enrage mechanics that require you to plow through the phase (Cho'gall, Al'akir, Chimaeron, shit like that).

[Deleted]

The biggest problem is that on some bosses, you don't WANT to extend MF range since the boss has enrage mechanics that require you to plow through the phase (Cho'gall, Al'akir, Chimaeron, shit like that).

And that's why it was stated that "The general idea is that it's better to pop Heroism at the start, unless there are spesific mechanics where you need to burn faster".

Other things being equal, it's better to pop Time Warp at the start than within execute range.

If there are enrages, or other intense periods during a fight, in which you need to put out damage within a shorter time, then things aren't equal and you need to adjust accordingly.

[Anubisblack]

To be fair, the Heroism timing was really counter- intuitive for me. It took some time reading and realising what the idea behind early Heroism was. But that was 2 years ago. If you really are a new player, you should definitely do a lot of reading before starting to play, not to mention starting an argument.

Here- your homework:
http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/binken...e_talents.html
http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t49476-m...eroism_timing/

On topic: You should always pop your cooldowns at the start, as all your procs will proc then and you will be using Heroism almost always at the start. The next time you should pop your cooldowns is below 35% as you have already mentioned, since it does increase your damage by 12% even if no buff/debuff pops up. Of course, if an encounter mechanic is expecting you to burn something faster at a different time or your guild is struggling with adds etc. you need to save your cooldowns for that phase/mechanic.