Your approach to t11 (Holy)?

[Callypso]

I'm wondering what you guys are doing with regards to your gearing up in (normal) raids when it comes to tier vs offspec pieces.

In my view atm, the (2) bonus is pretty much useless. I'm assigned to the raid 95% of the time, and as such heal is only a small part of my healing done during most fights. Considering the stats on most pieces suck (hello crit?) that gives very little incentive to equip any of them until I can obtain the (4) bonus.

Since i'm one of 2 holy priests in our (25m) guild and among the most active raiders, I can pretty much get any gear I want to min/max (Only mentioning this to avoid the 'you can be sure to get tier from VP, but loot is competition/RNG' replies), but i'm wondering what would be optimal in the long run.

Would you guys say it's optimal to

- Go for a fully maximized offset and stick with it due to the better choice in itemization?

Or

- Get the 4 pieces of t11, reforge the stupid crit on those and then compensate for the loss of haste/mastery on the four tier pieces by reforging spirit > mastery/haste on the others?

I'm not sure about the math but i'm a bit torn about wether to start spending VP on my holy tier when it seems it might be just as good to just go for offset items (that way I can spend the VP on my shadow offspec to keep it somewhat viable, though I don't use it much in raids).

Thoughts?

[Ebbikenezer]

I'm in roughly the same boat as you.

That being said here's the way I see it:

The 4 piece for a healing priest is awesome, to be sure, but is it REALLY necessary? Seems to me it is very geared towards priests who are either looking to spam heals (trying to get away from that I thought, Blizz?)or having some mana problems.

I have been having trouble convincing myself to buy any of the tier gear for those exact reasons as well as the crappy itemization. The only piece that even slightly appeals to me is the legs due to them being slightly better than my crafted ones after reforging.

I guess what it really boils down to is how much of a difference you think the 4 piece will actually make for you in your raids. I'm sure it would give me quite a bit more throughput having that extra mana to spend, but I don't think that's necessarily needed for us atm. With that said, who knows what heroic modes will bring.

[Devotions]

My personal thoughts (and what I'm planning to do) is to go for the 4p as follows: chest, shoulders, gloves, and legs. For the helm, get the haste helm from Valiona and Theralion. Some people might argue for the spirit/mastery helm from Magmaw, but the tier (excepting the shoulders) lacks haste and the 4p gives you a load of spirit, so I'd say go for the helm of Eldritch Authority.

Obviously reforge everything (mastery and crit) to haste. That gives you only one piece with your despised crit, the chest.

So yeah, I'd say spend your VP on all three pieces of tier (unless you get lucky in Baradin Hold).

[Maxpowr]

4pc for holy is a must unless you can magically make up the spirit bonus else where. Yes, it has been well established that the 2pc blows for both specs. You are either looking at chest or helm for an offset piece. The gloves, legs and shoulders are required. I personally grabbed the tier chest and reforged the crit to haste because we only have 1 haste tier piece (shoulders). With the helm, you have a choice of either spir/mastery or spir/haste. My reason is the competition for both tier pieces (helm and shoulders) will be high so only needing 1 was my thought process.

So there are a few options to play around with there.

[Arcsecant]

4 piece bonus with either the helm or chest being the offset piece. There is a nice helm that drops off magmaw and to get the T helm you have to kill an end raid boss. So it might be more accesible to most raiders to go for the helm off piece but you will still have to down cho'gall for the shoulder token.

[Zeuq]

Not going for the 4pc bonus seems quite silly to me. Yes, the Spirit may not strictly be needed, but its free itemization. If you don't need the Spirit, then it means you can take a Haste/Spirit or Mastery/Spirit and reforge away some of that Spirit for more throughput instead. Thus, either way, it's a strict win/win in terms of Itemization; you get regen if you need it, or you can reforge for more throughput if you don't.

Yes, you may value Haste above Mastery, but even then, you shouldn't value it that much behind that being forced to take a Mastery/Spirit item is looked at as bad. Personally, I value them closely and even though I favor Mastery, I still keep Haste not that far behind. So, really, the only really big problem with the 4pc is that you have to take a Crit item, but again, you can reforge the Crit, and gaining 540 Spirit is totally worth taking a litle bit of Crit.

That said, obviously, you offset the Head or Chest, and you don't really need to bother with the set until you can get the 4pc bonus, since the 2pc is essentially worthless. As such, I'm currently using an offset piece in both my head and chest slot until my shoulder token drops, and I'll buy the Chest then.

[Mazi]

Ditch the helm or robes for a piece from raid drops. I'm going to copy/paste my "BIS List" that was required of me by my guild - this is NON-HEROIC only. You should then also inspect my toon (armory in my sig) in order to see some great alternate gear you can get in the meantime. I put a decent amount of time into this list and feel that it's pretty damn accurate. I also did not include any of the random stat items from Throne of Four Winds. I hope this helps you! & Feedback is always welcomed (on my list and my toon) :]

------------------

HELM

Crown of Burning Waters - Valiona: http://www.wowhead.com/item=59452
Mercurial Cowl - Nefarian / Vendor: http://www.wowhead.com/item=60258

I have the Engineering helm. It's only a 9-17 spirit upgrade (and mastery/haste loss) to swap to the Magmaw or Velonia helm. 4 piece Tier is too amazing to pass up, therefore based on slot itemization it's either the Helm or Chest that gets replaced due to the Crit on them, the Helm is the preferred choice out of the 2 for a few reasons: I have the engineering helm already, the upgrades to the other drops are minimal and the tier helm is on a token and I would be taking such a small upgrade when it would most likely be a large upgrade for others.



NECK

Valiona's Medallion - Valiona: http://www.wowhead.com/item=59512 can reforge Haste/Mastery into 76 Spirit, which is only a 51 spirit difference with +127 Mastery & +51 Haste (or vice versa) so this may be the better option out of the 2 even though it doesn't have Spirit on it.
Wyrmbreaker's Amulet - Halfus Wyrmbreaker: http://www.wowhead.com/item=59483 can reforge Crit into 76 Mastery/Haste



SHOULDERS

Mercurial Mantle - Cho'gall // Vendor: http://www.wowhead.com/item=60262



CLOAK

Heavenly Breeze - Vendor: http://www.wowhead.com/item=58194
Drape of the Twins - Valiona: http://www.wowhead.com/item=59516 these are simply haste vs. mastery. Since so much else has to come from the vendor the Valiona one may be preferred, it depends on how our healing roster works out. If we have lots of Resto Druids then I would value Haste over Mastery, etc.



CHEST

Mercurial Robes - Vendor: http://www.wowhead.com/item=60259
Robes of the Burning Acolyte - Halfus Wyrmbreaker: http://www.wowhead.com/item=59482


BRACERS

Bracers of the Burningeye - Atramedes: http://www.wowhead.com/item=65056



GLOVES

Mercurial Handwraps - Argaloth / Vendor: http://www.wowhead.com/item=60275



BELT

Hyjal Vendor (already have) all of the other belts have Crit or no Spirit


LEGGINGS

Tier from Vendor (already have)



BOOTS

Slippers of Moving Waters - Vendor: http://www.wowhead.com/item=58486
Treads of Liquid Ice - Elementium Monstrosity: http://www.wowhead.com/item=59508 again, Mastery vs. Haste



RINGS

Twined Band of Flowers - Vendor: http://www.wowhead.com/item=58189 (already have)
Security Measure Alpha - Omnotron Defense System: http://www.wowhead.com/item=59220 ugh crit but can forge into 76 mastery
Signet of the Fifth Circle - Cho'gall: http://www.wowhead.com/item=59501 no spirit - can forge haste into 76 spirit




TRINKETS

Fall of Mortality - Cho'gall: http://www.wowhead.com/item=59500
Core of Ripeness - Vendor: http://www.wowhead.com/item=58184 I definitely prefer the Equip trinket here over the on Use but if many people need the Fall of Mortality I'm ok with picking up the Core.



WEAPON

Andoros, Fist of the Dragon King - Nefarian: http://www.wowhead.com/item=59459 - Prefer Mace + OH combo over Staff due to +100 Int enchant on OH and the +96 Mastery difference, just better overall.
Chelley's Staff of Dark Mending - Zone Drop: http://www.wowhead.com/item=59525


OFFHAND

Scepter of Ice - Elementium Monstrosity: http://www.wowhead.com/item=59513



RANGED

Finkle's Mixer Upper - Chimaeron: http://www.wowhead.com/item=59314




STAT PRIORITY

Intellect > Spirit > Mastery >= Haste > Crit
Obviously all loot will have Int on it - followed by that would be any item that has Spirit on it. Items without Spirit are not desirable except in the situation of the neck piece where there is only Crit as an alternative. This is the only example of valuing an item without Spirit. Mastery & Haste are somewhat equal although Mastery is preferred. Crit is avoided at all costs, but of course can be reforged.

[Kelesti]

I myself am going with the 4pc, and Eldritch Authority for the head, and reforging the Spirit into Haste or Mastery (whichever I don't have), with the exception of the crit on the chestpiece going to Haste.

Doing this I get significantly more ouput without screwing my blue bar come patch day (Week and a half?).

[Evolixe]

*Snip*

Good post, but on an item that already has spirit you cant reforge spirit aswell :P

*cough*Wyrmbreaker's Amulet*cough*

[Mazi]

Good post, but on an item that already has spirit you cant reforge spirit aswell :P

*cough*Wyrmbreaker's Amulet*cough*

Yeah that was just poor copy paste from the previous neck.. haha... I'll fix it. Can't believe no one has caught that til now o,o

edit: fixed, thanks

[Minto44]

I got my 4 piece bonus last week, and it's pretty incredible for your mana regen. I find myself actually using Sanctuary on some fights for the extra HPCT simply because I don't have any mana issues anymore. I raid 25 man, and all the normal modes are a total breeze to heal at the moment, I could pretty much sleep through them as it is. I went with the chest as my crit set part, because just like someone else noted, I'd say there's a lot more room for configuration with the head piece.

Currently making sure I have my haste at 7.50 without Darkness so I can reach 12.50 with the 5% raid wide haste buff, and stacking Mastery for anything leftover. Next patch I'll be swapping the points from SoM into Darkness, so I can reforge down to 5.50% haste or just keep haste higher for faster casts overall, we'll see.

4 set will ALWAYS be better than a full offset set though, simply because the 540 free spirit outweights the small crit you'll have on one of your items.

[ZippyDoodle]

To me, the four piece for holy counts as the following.


People who don't know how to manage their mana and run OOM very quickly.

People who DO know how to manage their mana, and min/max their gear. For example, Jar of Ancient Remedies, for ME. Replaces my 4 piece and allows me to get other pieces to make up for the lack of output on my trinket slot.

Thats exactly what I think should be done, if you think you have enough regen. Don't get it, heroic modes might be different, but I still don't think the 4 piece will make or break the game.


IMO, the first tier that comes out in any expansion is not that good. just because its 4 piece tier, doesn't make it 100% needed.

Hope this helps.

---------- Post added 2011-01-21 at 03:19 PM ----------

4 set will ALWAYS be better than a full offset set though, simply because the 540 free spirit outweights the small crit you'll have on one of your items.

Wrong, I do not have my 4 piece. I top meters and do NOT have mana problems at all, in fact half the time I have extra mana.

People are still stuck in the sppam healing mentallity and need to get out of it.


The 4 piece is good, yes. Better then previous 4 pieces before it. However, it's not 100% needed if you gear yourself properly.


By having offset pieces instead of a piece with crit, you either gain 200 mastery, or 200 haste. Neither is something to joke about.



N

[Mazi]

I top meters and do NOT have mana problems at all, in fact half the time I have extra mana.

People are still stuck in the sppam healing mentallity and need to get out of it.

The 4 piece is good, yes. Better then previous 4 pieces before it. However, it's not 100% needed if you gear yourself properly.

By having offset pieces instead of a piece with crit, you either gain 200 mastery, or 200 haste. Neither is something to joke about.

N

Could very easily be a different story on heroics - which are (seemingly) much more intensive than wrath heroics. & You having more mana to work with through regen could mean that your team only needs to bring 6 healers instead of 7 or 5 instead of 6. There's more to min/maxing than you. You should be thinking about your entire raid and even guild. What other classes are you playing with? How do they play? How do you gear? Etc

[ZippyDoodle]

Could very easily be a different story on heroics - which are (seemingly) much more intensive than wrath heroics. & You having more mana to work with through regen could mean that your team only needs to bring 6 healers instead of 7 or 5 instead of 6. There's more to min/maxing than you. You should be thinking about your entire raid and even guild. What other classes are you playing with? How do they play? How do you gear? Etc

The post wasn't talking about raid comp/balance but ok.

Yes I agree heroics could be different, and 100% sure they will. However, there still has to be mana managment. Granted 540 spirit being 100% uptime is good. I don't think it's going to make or break a fight. I think its a big playstyle choice.

As far as raid composition goes with this. If we didn't have a mana tide, yea, id get it. However my guild runs with two. So my mana [Esp after patch <3 raidwide mana tide] will be peachy.

You say that I should be thinking about min maxing in terms of raid comp. uh, not to be rude but duh?

540 spirit isn't going to be the difference between 7 or 8 healers. I promise you that.


The only time you should be thinking about # of healers vs # of healers... is if you have a severley undergeared healer in your raid, or someone isn't picking up the slack.

Or if your DPS, such as our guilds case. Is very low =/ and ADD ridden at times.

[Mazi]

540 spirit can easily provide more throughput than 200 mastery. You're talking about the ability to cast that extra poh that you may not have had the mana for, or even flash heals over a long fight. I don't really have time to go into immense detail right now, but I think you can get the picture.

Either way is fine, gearing wise. I currently have all off-set pieces except legs and have no troubles with mana - would more mana be nice? Of course - because I can choose that inefficient mana but high hps heal more often.

[ZippyDoodle]

B]because I can choose that inefficient mana but high hps heal more often[/B].

So you are saying playing poorly spamming flash heal, instead of choosing your spells wisely is how you should play?

Nice.


But no.

[Mazi]

So you are saying playing poorly spamming flash heal, instead of choosing your spells wisely is how you should play?

Nice.


But no.

Obviously you aren't understanding what I am trying to say.

I use Flash Heal maybe 3x a night, if that. I'm saying that having more mana and more overall throughput to work with will be beneficial. Not every situation is an ideal situation where you can just spam Heal all day long. By having far more regen it will turn a bad choice of using flash heal into a good choice because you have the regen to support it.

More often != spamming.

[ZippyDoodle]

And I agree to a point though.


The only reason I really flash heal are fails [mostly atremedes] and to clutch serendipity Gheals and PoH.

I still don't think 540 spirit makes or breaks ANY fight. 540 spirit still has to add up over time to be ANYTHING significant.


Don't quote me on math, im terrible and this is just estimating.

540 spirit x80% regen.

probably close to 450 mp5 or somewhere around there.


1 minute / mp5. = 12 5 seconds in 1 minute.

450 x 5400 mana in 1 minute.


Not bad, and my math could be terribly wrong. But it's still not the difference between bringing 1 extra healer, or not bringing them.

thats maybe, 1 extra PoH per minute. And at that point you are losing 200 of one stat, 200 mastery is close to 2% extra healing as a hot [at no mana cost]

over two minutes its a mana pot.


So two minutes, two extra PoH or Greater heals.


Not worth losing the other stats imo. Those two extra casts could easily be made up for people not making a mistake, or you managing mana differently.


Just me, and my math could be wrong anyway so >_>


I do see your point, I just don't see it being 100% needed in heroics if you are good.

[Mazi]

Nothing in this game makes or breaks it. It's the overall combination of everything you do. 5400 mana in 1 minute would be greater than the mana return of a mana potion. It would even be nearly identical with the Jar according to this spreadsheet.

In my post I also clearly stated that I heal just fine in non-tier pieces, but here is my researched suggestion for a BIS list. I sit at the valor vendor wondering if I should even buy anything from it because of how sidegrade all of the pieces are until 4pc.

The poster didn't want this included, but it is also more "guild economical" to pick up the tier pieces from the vendor that you can get rather than waiting for drops & taking them from others. Yeah spirit isn't really desired by anyone else on cloth, but still.


Sadly as a healer it is kind of our job to compensate for other people's mistakes - ie. taking more damage than they should. Having more mana to work with can only help this situation. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about throughput, but until seeing heroics I cannot comment on which way you should really go. Take the proc, and forge out some spirit into throughput if you really want. All of the gear that is optimized for us will be just fine. Personally, I greatly prefer to have the tier pieces for that extra oomph.

In the end both gear sets are fantastic for normal mode clearing. Whichever way you can gear up fastest will probably help your guild the most with progression.



--- Also remember that we are losing 10% regen in 4.0.6 (not that major, but still important) which will change how we heal slightly. We are also losing some healing on PoH and gaining elsewhere, specifically in instant casts - which will result in lower Echo of Light and more casts done which could mean more mana spent & less gain from mastery.

[[-Spiritus-]]

I honestly never bought the argument that more regen = more throughput b/c I can cast a larger number of higher throughput, but less efficient spells.

None of the top priest healers I know think like this at all. Instead they think of regen like, "For any given damage pattern, there is x-sequence of heals that is the most efficient counter. What is the minimum amount of regen that I need to counter a given encounter's damage patterns with y number of x-sequences over z minutes so I may focus the remainder of that item budget into throughput, boosting the power of my efficient counter?"