4.0.6 - Frost Magi Forgotten?

[Valanna]

Since the expansion's commencement, I, along other magi, have taken a big leap from WotLK and started to play frost. In my experience this far, it has been absolutely fantastic. I'm a die hard fan of the new frost mechanics, they really are that much greater than fire and arcane. The announcement of 4.0.6 came along and the concept they were bringing with it made me warm. Filled with anticipation the first notes came and we got hit in the face with a hammer quite hard, despite the nice changes brought to both fire and arcane. The next draft: armor changes, yipee! Comfortable, I suppose, but it isn't going to change a darn thing when it cuts to the chase. Now, with the latest draft of notes coming today, with no mage changes, I'm really starting to think we're forgotten. Not many changes in the notes at all, in fact, which tells me that it's coming to and end of testing an tweaking, and is soon to be implemented live. As it stands now, it's going to be like WotLK again, with one cookiecutter spec that is decent with the two other rather far behind.

I can't stop killing myself over the thought of Blizzard deliberately killing frost as a viable spec after it being, despite a little behind, a dynamic and outstandingly fun spec. There's always hope, but I'm starting to lose it. It just kills me to think that they won't do anything, it's so easy to tweak the spec! Do you guys think they'll revert some of the changes or make it better in some other way? Share your thoughts.

Disclaimer:

PvP forum here. Please keep to the topic.
This thread is not about arcane.
This thread is not about fire.
This thread is also not about mudkips, armor penetration, Ray William Johnson, Rick Astley or any other random topic you're tempted to derail to. Once again, keep to the topic please.

[Joker12489]

seriously....mages are fine where they stand and our frost spec is really decent i love my mage i pvp as frost and raid as arcane and i see no issues. If there is no changes coming it's because we don't need them we are fine. although i can't speak for fire as to where it stands

[Valanna]

http://stateofdps.com/

We're far from fine. If you think it's fine being 4500 behind the top in average dps, and that it even warrants a nerf, is fine, there's something you're not thinking over clearly.

[Keilith]

Frost needs more nerfs end of story.

[Valanna]

Frost needs more nerfs end of story.

You must be very educated in the area after killing Argaloth a whooping two times! Thanks a lot for your useless input.

[Zues]

http://stateofdps.com/

We're far from fine. If you think it's fine being 4500 behind the top in average dps, and that it even warrants a nerf, is fine, there's something you're not thinking over clearly.

Yeah, make frost pull shit tons of dps along with their massive cc's....

Frost is already doing good damage in pve and pvp, which is stupid enough. You're really gonna QQ that your most control heavy spec isn't also top dps? Be happy that you're pulling even half ass competent dps as frost. Reroll fire if you want more damage.

[Jojop69]

http://stateofdps.com/

We're far from fine. If you think it's fine being 4500 behind the top in average dps, and that it even warrants a nerf, is fine, there's something you're not thinking over clearly.

Now i didnt check the actual parses, but could this be because not as many people play frost in raids atm? Its well known that fire is superior right now, that much is clear, but with less data from frost i feel like these numbers could be a bit skewed dont you? Yes there may have been enough to post logs on state of dps (top20/top100 i believe) but the higher content mages arent really playing frost unless they need to for a mechanic (magmaw adds etc.). Just my thoughts though like i said i havent checked the actual parses.

[Tandrius]

Blizzard seems to have no concept of the state of dps imo. Balancing in 4.06 seems to revolve entirely around the PVP world. In PVE a few much needed concepts are being addressed (disc priests for example), but dps disparity between classes in PVE right now is insane and many of the PVP fixes will only make this worse. Many of the new rotations are clumsy and awkward, and some classes can top raid charts in 318 gear while other classes can barely keep up if they run a perfect rotation.

Personally I would love nothing better than to see PVP and PVE in two seperate games.

[Valanna]

Now i didnt check the actual parses, but could this be because not as many people play frost in raids atm? Its well known that fire is superior right now, that much is clear, but with less data from frost i feel like these numbers could be a bit skewed dont you? Yes there may have been enough to post logs on state of dps (top20/top100 i believe) but the higher content mages arent really playing frost unless they need to for a mechanic (magmaw adds etc.). Just my thoughts though like i said i havent checked the actual parses.

Frost dps is not at all that much after. It's a delusion that's stuck from the Wrath mentality where frost has been shit straight through. The top parses from fire are so much higher than the top frost parses because of the magnified element of luck, which frost doesn't have to the same degree.

Yeah, make frost pull shit tons of dps along with their massive cc's....

Frost is already doing good damage in pve and pvp, which is stupid enough. You're really gonna QQ that your most control heavy spec isn't also top dps? Be happy that you're pulling even half ass competent dps as frost. Reroll fire if you want more damage.

Read the disclaimer.

[Linaver]

I too am disappointed to not have a single blue mention.

Seriously though, mages started off in a good place and still are so it's not like I expect any particular changes. Except for one. Blizzard themselves acknowledged that fire dps in pve is a little bit on the low side (pretty sure that was the phrase they used) so I am kinda hoping to see some improvements on that front.

[Zues]

They can't just buff you without looking at the pvp aspect, please don't be that ignorant....

[Valanna]

I too am disappointed to not have a single blue mention.

Seriously though, mages started off in a good place and still are so it's not like I expect any particular changes. Except for one. Blizzard themselves acknowledged that fire dps in pve is a little bit on the low side (pretty sure that was the phrase they used) so I am kinda hoping to see some improvements on that front.

They said arcane was definitely too low, and they were looking to buff fire and frost slightly as well, but were still watching them. That's also one of the reasons that lead me to aspire to 4.0.6. I'm really bummed they completely changed their mind for what looks to be no reason though.

They can't just buff you without looking at the pvp aspect, please don't be that ignorant....

Sure they can, just revert the deep freeze change, and buff it even a bit more while they're at it. Also revert the mastery change and revert the 15% increased Ice Lance damage, and nerf it by 15%, which is then empowered to bring it to where it is now by the 15% FoF empowerment. The nerf to FFB wasn't necessary, I think we can agree on that.

And more to the point, apparently they can nerf the PvP aspect while completely overlooking the PvE aspect, which nullifies your PoV. It can't be OK to do one and not the other, sorry.

[Wickedwookie]

I don't play a Mage as a main character, only as an alt, so my feedback on this topic might not be 100% accurate and I appreciate being corrected (if in a decent matter).

But from what I can tell Fire's damage output and overall DPS seems to be more or less spot on PvE wise. Arcane isn't doing badly either and the variety of different possible talent specs with those 2 seem to handle the variety of encounters (Heroics, Raids, certain bossfights, AoE fights, etc.).

Frost on the other hand has lower overall DPS, but higher burst and we all know and love (and even hate) Frost for it's incredible CC capabilities whcih make it one of the most powerful PvP talent specs among all classes at the moment.
With that in mind I can't help but think you (I mean the OP) might be looking at this from a different perspective as the developers do. Most of the community (and even the developers I think) look at Frost being *the* PvP spec for a Mage, thus it's capabilities in PvE aren't as great as either Arcane or Fire apart from the added CC which can come in handy at times.

In other words, does Frost really need more damage? Does one of the strongest PvP/CC oriented talent specs currently in the game need more damage?
I personally don't think so, dual talent specialization is your friend, and for PvE my Mage is specced Fire, while for PvP I've specced Frost.
As Frost is now, I'm even more leaning towards the oppinion that their CC might be too strong at the moment, but that's just a personal thought.

[Sym]

I'm sure they mentioned somewhere that Arcane is borked, and that Fire/Frost might be too low. So far I've seen hardly any changes to Arcane, a couple of mana reductions for Fire, and a couple of changes to Frost.

Just seems pointless to be partially nerfing a spec which was already behind others. Sure you could burst 35k+ DPS within 2 seconds and jump ahead by a 200k damage or so, but that wasn't something you could effectively maintain.

[Noxplod]

As much as I absolutely hate mages, especially frost, I have to agree with Valanna that a pure DPS class should not be so far behind hybrids. (I play a ret pally) Same goes for any other class. I believe all DPS specs should be pretty competitive in the hands of a competent player, however, with pure breeds a "small" percent above. (Boss mechanics aside. Some hybrids benefit insanely from some of the shenanigans in some of these fights)

[Kryos]

cc-nerf frost and buff the pve-related dmg for compensation. Frostmages are a pvp nightmare for everyone and a burden in pve with low dmg.

[Valanna]

cc-nerf frost and buff the pve-related dmg for compensation. Frostmages are a pvp nightmare for everyone and a burden in pve with low dmg.

They aren't so much of a burden now if played well. They will be completely unviable, I fear, if the current notes go live though.

Also, please read the disclaimer before leaving another comment about PvP.

[Deleted]

I agree that the 4.0.6 nerf is bad idea. Plus probably completely changing our stat priorities. I am unhappy about this.

However at present I frequently top the meters with frost PVE, usually with shadowpriests a close second and third. I have no qualms with the current state of frost, but I'm unhappy about the incoming nerf.

[Vesoha]

They can't just buff you without looking at the pvp aspect, please don't be that ignorant....

Sure they can, just revert the deep freeze change, and buff it even a bit more while they're at it. Also revert the mastery change and revert the 15% increased Ice Lance damage, and nerf it by 15%, which is then empowered to bring it to where it is now by the 15% FoF empowerment. The nerf to FFB wasn't necessary, I think we can agree on that.

Well then they ARE looking at the pvp aspect, if reverting those

End of the day to make it powerful enough for pve it got to lose some of the cc, so make it count in glyphs if you want the extra damage the ability loses its cc. for pve you still got sheep and ring of frost, rest gotta go slow on frostbolt slow on coc frost nova and proc nova. Then in the end you got damage spells thats 10-20% more powerful (just an estimate of whats needed to reach good end in pve) but its not powerful enough so that you would want to lose most of your cc in pvp.

[Valanna]

I agree that the 4.0.6 nerf is bad idea. Plus probably completely changing our stat priorities. I am unhappy about this.

However at present I frequently top the meters with frost PVE, usually with shadowpriests a close second and third. I have no qualms with the current state of frost, but I'm unhappy about the incoming nerf.

Statistics don't work like that. You have much to little empirical data to be able to draw a conclusion of the situation. In your case it seems who you play with are of lesser quality than yourself, thus the outcome of the meters. I say this because they have a quite significant edge over you, theoretically.

Well then they ARE looking at the pvp aspect, if reverting those

End of the day to make it powerful enough for pve it got to lose some of the cc, so make it count in glyphs if you want the extra damage the ability loses its cc. for pve you still got sheep and ring of frost, rest gotta go slow on frostbolt slow on coc frost nova and proc nova. Then in the end you got damage spells thats 10-20% more powerful (just an estimate of whats needed to reach good end in pve) but its not powerful enough so that you would want to lose most of your cc in pvp.

We are in fact losing a quite significant chunk of our CC ability in 4.0.6, both affecting PvP and PvE.

What I suggested was to keep Ice Lance damage as the current notes suggest, because the PvE damage from Ice Lance will be unchanged, since they're only cast with FoF. I suggest that they make this change without nerfing our whole mastery, which not only nerfs Ice Lance on novad/Deep Frozen/RoF'd targets, but also Deep Freeze, FFB and Ice Lance damage in PvE. I think you'd agree with me when I say Deep Freeze and FFB damage is not overpowered in any way, shape or form, from a PvP standpoint. In fact, our PvP damage isn't OP at all, our CC capability is.

Enough of derailing to PvP now, please.