Thread: Hit or no hit?

  1. #1

    Hit or no hit?

    Ok so as a spriest one of my biggest questions is should I be hit capped? If so how far out of my way should I go to reach the cap? I am currently at about a 357 equipped ilvl and only doing about 11k on the raid test dummies but I am hit capped through reforging majority of my gear to spirit/hit. Is the hit cap worth losing crit and haste over, because I feel like I'm losing quite a bit of damage through the reforging to reach the cap.


    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    hit > all until capped, and then its worth nothing

  3. #3
    According to the theorycrafters over at Elitist Jerks forums, hit cap is no longer as crucial as it used to be.
    The really short version is: If you can react fast to recast resisted spells then you don't need to be hitcapped.

    But you really should check out the longer version over at http://elitistjerks.com/f77/t112651-...est_cataclysm/ since there were a couple of caveats.
    Grammer nazi's aren't a per-requisite for you're enjoyment of these signature. Although for all intensive purposes its really a mute point, per say.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by bargiddle View Post
    hit > all until capped, and then its worth nothing
    This and you should never if at all possible reforge any haste into hit though, I pick up spi/haste pieces if i need more hit I reforge mastery or crit, the only time I had ever had to reforged haste was to get rid of a hit trinket and event hen I only lost 40 haste. There was even a time I had a spi/crit piece and I reforged the crit into hit.

    When I pick up new pieces I keep a spreadsheet with my gear and play with the numbers to see what I can reforge/enchant with to get hit capped while maintaining as much beneficial stats as possible

    ---------- Post added 2011-01-27 at 05:57 PM ----------

    Yeah I don't believe in that not neededing to Hit capped rule, I can see a couple of points and getting away with it but 16, 15%? Missing really throws off my rotation, this is why i HATE HATE HATE Chimaeron so much

  5. #5
    Hit is currently a horrible DPS stat for Shadow, but it'll be much better once 4.0.6 hits (pun intended!), since missing a Mind Blast will be a bigger deal than it currently is, since you can't just re-cast a missed mind blast.

  6. #6
    Mechagnome Veiled's Avatar
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    I'm sticking around 15.5%, getting about 3-4 misses per boss fight.

  7. #7
    The Patient sasslefrassed's Avatar
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    It depends on you, really. Are you fast enough to react if your DoT misses? If not, go for hit cap.
    If you go for hit cap, never ever reforge out of haste. Have haste on every piece of gear! Love the crap out of haste. It is your best friend.
    Imo, you should reforge out of crit, since mastery is getting buffed in the patch.. but I could be wrong in the assumption that post-patch Mastery > Crit.


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  8. #8
    Field Marshal Hitzler's Avatar
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    always hit cap first.
    teh 1337

  9. #9
    Quick reactions or not, Hit cap is still needed as much as it were before.

    It's common sense, if you miss something, you've wasted a GCD on, lets say that you miss 2 spells in a row, that's 2 GCD's that you'll do zero DPS on, yes your stats might be a little lower then if you didn't care about Hit at all, but what on earth does those stats matter if you miss the boss alot, could've just went naked instead.

    so OP, go for Hit cap as usually, but don't reforge away from Haste as it's an important stat for you.

  10. #10
    Reacting fast enough to recast is not a valid argument of not being hit capped... If you miss your cast you still have to recast and waste a cast or even a GCD which could have been used for something else. Anyone that tells you not to go for cap on boss encounters doesn't understand the concept of you can't DPS what you can't hit.

    Make 2 sets of gear...1) make a set strictly for boss encounters (17% hit) and every other stat you need (obviously haste nom nom nom haste)... Then if you really want you can make a set you would use for heroics and trash since the 17% hit is a waste of stats.

    hit (until cap) > int > haste

    what you choose after that is your choice but with the buff to mastery i would assume it will be the next stat we'll want after haste. Always reforge out of crit if you have that luxury since crit is an RNG based stat.

    Also what I do is after i get 2 or more new pieces I will unforge all my gear and start reforging to make sure im as close to the 17% cap without being grossly over the cap.
    Last edited by scandalis; 2011-01-27 at 08:06 PM.

  11. #11
    Mechagnome Veiled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chitzu View Post
    Quick reactions or not, Hit cap is still needed as much as it were before.

    It's common sense, if you miss something, you've wasted a GCD on, lets say that you miss 2 spells in a row, that's 2 GCD's that you'll do zero DPS on, yes your stats might be a little lower then if you didn't care about Hit at all, but what on earth does those stats matter if you miss the boss alot, could've just went naked instead.

    so OP, go for Hit cap as usually, but don't reforge away from Haste as it's an important stat for you.
    I don't think anyone here is saying to not "care about hit at all". The discussion is about whether or not you can safely go under your hit cap and gain DPS. Alot of things come into play here and this will be debated about for a long time probably.

    1) Did you actually miss a GCD or did one of your dots miss?
    2) What's the priests reaction time like? Did you notice that your spell missed immediately or a few seconds later (which would obv result in a bigger loss of DPS)?
    3) and the biggest question of them all... Would the gain in other stats make up for the loss of DPS if you missed 3-4 spells per boss fight? (Probably, but without any hard math on it, it's difficult to say at this point)

    I did Argaloth, Halfus Heroic, Val/Ther, Council, Cho'gall, Magmaw, Omnitron on Tuesday. I missed a total of: 3x VT, 9x SW:P, 2x MF, 1x DP. 15 Total misses for 7 bosses and a full night of raiding.


    Edit: Lol at Scandalis. Long time, no see.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled View Post


    Edit: Lol at Scandalis. Long time, no see.

    Theres only 2 shadow priests I can think of and I have a feeling I know who you are (name used to start with an R and end with a Y)

    Hai!

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by sp101 View Post
    Hit is currently a horrible DPS stat for Shadow, but it'll be much better once 4.0.6 hits (pun intended!), since missing a Mind Blast will be a bigger deal than it currently is, since you can't just re-cast a missed mind blast.
    Did something else change? Why was this not the FotM idea when 4pc T10 cause more than a few Priests to stop using Mind Blast in WotLK?

  14. #14
    Mechagnome Veiled's Avatar
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    My buddy, New, is on the case. Excited to see his results. Stay tuned~

  15. #15
    Well here's the thing (taken from WoTLK when i were playing my Elemental Shaman)

    For quite a while i stayed at about 0.2% below Hit cap, while 0.2% gives you only a small chance of missing, the chance is still there and it's completely random, on a fight or a whole raid you can miss 0, others you can miss 20, it's really up to RNG on that case, now if you're at 1% below hit cap, going all the way to the hit cap isn't really going to cost you a whole lot, matter if fact you'll gain DPS on the fights where you miss spells and slightly decrese on DPS where you didn't miss a single one while being 1% below.

    But the question is, are you willing to take that chance? are you willing to take the chance of causing a possible wipe due to enrage timer? If there's more then 1 person in the raid thinking that "hey, hit cap doesn't matter" then there's a significant chance of wiping due to enrage timer as some may be rather close.

    Yes, Elemental Shamans and Spriests isn't losing the same amount of DPS by missing as missing a Flame shock during WoTLK would screw you over for the entire CD on it while Spriests could just re-cast quick, even if it were a MB it were not that close to as much of a DPS loss as if you missed a FS screwing you over on the 100% LvB crit.

    Anyways to the point again, Hit will and has always been important, that's nothing which changes with gear, expansion etc etc, the value remains the same so sp101, i don't know if you're trolling or if you're just really unaware of game mechanics and stats.

  16. #16
    Vampiric Touch is falling off. What do you do?

    Recast it, but like any self-respecting caster out there you queue up your next spell. We'll say it's a Mind Flay, just for simplicity's sake. If you don't use spellqueue, you're already gimping your DPS, so yeah.

    Anyways, your Vampiric Touch misses, your Mind Flay starts casting. Then you see the yellow "Miss" cross your screen, figure out what actually triggered it, have brain-lag, and even with 0 latency, you're looking at 3+ seconds without your top damaging DoT, not to mention if a failed refresh happened before a move.

    Spreadsheets can't factor in "brain lag", they automatically assume instant recast, despite the spellqueue working against this system.

    The only thing that outweighs Hit/Spirit is Intellect, that's why you don't gem it. But! It's better than Haste, but again there should always be a second stat on your gear worth reforging off anyways (crit/mastery).
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  17. #17
    The Patient
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    I have done these types of analysis before and I will do another one. I know a week later someone is going to make another thread like this and I'll have to do it again, but if at least one person listens each time I do it, then it was worth doing. I will use the example that Veiled has provided above not as a means to discredit or insult the player, but to prove a point on the importance of the hit cap in a non-simulated environment and because I have numbers to use.

    Going from the logs in question:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...us/details/13/

    We see over the course of a full night of raiding, 25 misses (Not counting absorbs):

    Vampiric Touch: 6
    Mind Flay: 7
    Shadow Word: Pain: 1
    Devouring Plague: 3
    Mind Blast: 1
    Improved Devouring Plague: 2
    Mind Sear: 4

    We will neglect the Misses from Mind Sear and Shadow Word: Pain. The miss from Shadow Word: Pain probably did not result in any loss as another tick of Mind Flay probably refreshed it shortly after, resulting in no loss.

    Now, we need to try and determine the DPS lost on a per fight basis as a product of the missed spells. I will only focus on Argaloth because it will take much longer to do this on every fight, but the principle will mostly hold the same over the course of several fights. To find the loss, we must find out what the general loss per miss is. We can determine the length of a global cool down and cast time wasted from spells by looking at the profile's Haste:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ADled/advanced

    We see 2360 Haste or 18.43% Haste. The character sheet does not reflect the true Haste of the character as Shadow Form and Darkness provide an additional 5% and 3% multiplicative Haste respectively. We will assume no Dark Intent on the target as it was not present in the logs that were used. The total spell haste of the profile in question is:

    1.1843*1.05*1.03 = 1.28082 or 28.08% total spell haste.

    With the spell haste calculated, we can now determine the length of a GCD, 1.5 second cast, and a 3 second channel. The GCD starts at 1.5 seconds and reacts the same way to Haste as does the 1.5 second cast, so for all intents and purposes, they will be considered the same calculation at first:

    GCD/1.5 Second cast = 1.5 Seconds/1.05/1.03/1.2808 = 1.0828 or 1.08 seconds.
    3 second channel = 3 seconds/1.05/1.03/1.2808 = 2.1657 or 2.17 Seconds

    With the lengths of time calculated we now need to determine the DPS value of a wasted global cool down. This will be the result of a missed spell. This requires a bit of finesse and I will be taking the LOWEST possible DPS loss for the given situation. I will be taking our lowest Damage Per Execute Time spell (DPET) Mind Flay, as we could consider a miss as a CGD with no additional damage to show for it; when we could have done a partial Mind Flay instead. It will also ignore possible critical strikes. This again reinforces the idea of the MINIMUM possible loss incurred by a miss, when in reality, it has the potential to be much larger. Going from the logs on Argaloth:

    Average Mind Flay = 5783.7 Damage
    Average Damage of a non-crit Mind Flay = 5783.7*3 = 17351.1 Damage
    DPET of Mind Flay in this situation = 17351.1/2.17 seconds = 7995.898 or 7995.9


    Since we're looking at lost global cool downs, we need to translate this number into a loss per cool down number:

    7995.9/1.08 seconds = 7403.6 damage per GCD of Mind Flay
    ** I realize Mind Flay ticks in intervals and not continuously, however this is still a fair calculation to use.

    On Argolth we see two Vampiric Touch misses. This equates out to be 2 wasted global cool downs:

    2*7403.6 =14807.22 wasted damage.
    Fight length = 3.18 minutes * 60 seconds = 190.8 second fight
    Wasted DPS = 14807.22/190.8 = 77.61 DPS


    So during the fight, a minimum of 77.61 DPS was lost as a result of the misses. Now we need to figure out what the gain was of not being hit capped. To do this, we turn to simulation craft using the character's profile and I will run it at 200 seconds to try to match the length of the sim to the log in comparison. Then I will adjust the character's reforges to be hit capped by reforging the back's Crit to Spirit (-50 Crit), the weapon's Crit to Spirit (-39 Crit), the neck's Mastery to Spirit (-50 Haste), and the wrist's Haste to Spirit (-50 Haste). This nets 189 Spirit to make up the 187 gap of hit currently in the profile:

    veiled as is : 21095 DPS
    veiled after reforge : 21084 DPS


    So by neglecting hit for other primary stats, a total of 9 theoretical DPS is gained.

    We see in this case (and I've seen in other times I've done this analysis) that there is a DPS gain to be had by choosing to neglect the hit cap. However, in theory, the miss and react time is flawless with little to no wasted time as a result of a miss. This is not the case in reality. The calculations for the DPS loss in the log example, were done with the same assumption that a miss would be followed instantly by a reaction to recast and minimize the DPS loss of a miss. When comparing the two, we see the DPS loss in neglecting the hit cap is much greater than the potential gain. Now, a difference of ~86 DPS difference may not seem like a lot to some people, but remember this is a MINIMUM loss incurred as a result of misses. The loss in reality was probably much greater than the above calculations.

    Some may say that they are able to miss and react with enough time to negate the difference here and that is fine to say. Theoretically, they are correct in their assumption they can get the extra DPS. However, I doubt anyone can react with the time necessary to get that difference.

    tl;dr:

    DPS gain by neglecting the hit cap = 9 DPS
    DPS loss incurred in reality = 77 DPS
    People should go for the hit cap.
    Last edited by New; 2011-01-27 at 10:24 PM.

  18. #18
    Fluffy Kitten Ultima's Avatar
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    Ending the thread on New's post.

    Take it to the guide thread or Shadow specific thread if you must continue this.
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