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  1. #21
    So tired of Mastery vs Haste post

    OP if you go all out on haste or you go all out on Mastery you're doing it wrong,

    Mastery is a very nice stat for raid healing, in heavy AE dmg it will be number 2 or 3 on your top heals

    The only thing haste is going to do for you healing wise is provide throughput, if you can't get by with 0 Haste you're raid/you are doing something wrong. If you're running OOM you're doing it wrong (or your raid is and haste) If you're ovearhealing by more than 10% you're doing it wrong.

    This is not to say you shouldn't pick up haste but after darkness and 5% from raid buff you don't need a whole lot more.

    TLDR balance your stats the greatest gain you are going to get is by experience and using the right heal at the right time.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    if you can't get by with 0 Haste you're raid/you are doing something wrong.
    While I agree with everything else you said, this part right here just isn't applicable, unless you're the kind of person to read a spreadsheet at face value.
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  3. #23
    Thats how I did Mazi. I found myself in Serenity mode all the time in 10-mans.
    Then I switched to Disc, reforged 740 spirit to haste and now I'm a Discipled Serenity priest,but on stereoids.

    If you're going holy in a 10-man, just stick to Serenity. Easy said. There is no source more reliable than my own meandering experience. Empirical evidece works best

    PS. Experiences may differ!
    Last edited by Juber; 2011-01-31 at 04:34 PM.

  4. #24
    The mastery vs haste thing is something that i have a weak grasp on right now. So i will take up anyones advice and test it. As you've seen in my previous post i've found Mastery stacking to be ineffective. Haste stacking hasn't been too problematic, but it might when we go back for Cho'gall hopefully on tuesday and I change our raid's healer setup from 3 to 2.

    I'm still experimenting and trying. Although i'm certain i've improved, i still have a long way to go with priests. That's what I get for neglecting a healer class entirely for 5 years

  5. #25
    The 0 haste thing was mostly to make a point your healing is going to be determined in how your play not how fast you cast but I agree it does sound a big extreme without and explanation. I also assumed the person would have 5% haste raid buffed & possibly darkness. I have about 6% haste in my holy gear combined with another 8% from talents/buff I feel it suffices quiet well for all situations I have ran into. Raid healing wise anyway, I have yet been asked to tank heal any raid fights.

    The biggest problem I find with most not so great healers, is that they are reactive healers instead of proactive. For instance on H Halfus before the big AE goes off I am already pre-casting POH to give me a jump, and I can cast POH one very single group and have plenty of time to get people topped off before the next huge AE (as long as DPS isn't being dumb and taking fireball dmg).

    I do use spreadsheets to understand the mechanics and what my best HPM/HPS spells are but it will never make up for actually healing a fight and getting a "feel" for it

  6. #26
    Gonna follow up on Zenkai's post.

    Haste vs Mastery?

    Let's start with saying: You need to look at yourself and not at others and what your current gear and content of raiding benefits you the most and increase your performance rather than taking other's opinions. As said, you will have to look at your gear, your raid content and the raid setup you're going with. This applys for generally everything you do regarding raiding.

    So first we'll look at your armory and go through each beneficial factors a holy priest need to consider.

    [COLOR="rgb(0, 0, 0)"]Mana Regeneration[/COLOR] - Is your mana lasting the whole fight through? ( Including the use of; Shadowfiend, Hymn, Pots etc )

    If Yes - This means your mana will be fine and that you can spend more stats on a throughput stat aka haste. Mastery being a throughput stat when you don't excessively overwrite the ticks but for your 10man raiding team and setup ( going by your Word of Log ) you better stick with a decent amount of haste.

    If No - You would need to spend your throughput stats ( Haste [secondary stats ] ) to offer you more HPM & Mana regen. ; Healing per Mana. Which for holy is Mastery / Spirit due to beneficial of Echoes of Light & Holy Concentration.

    Note: Int isn't included due to it for the most scale with gear and at raiding content your mana pool shouldn't be the issue

    What I just wrote above, is that you need to judge your stats.

    Haste: is and will be a throughput stat
    Mastery: Gives you HPM, meaning that it's mostly classified as a mana regenerative stat. ( It reaaallllyyyy matters if it's 25man or 10man, since the benefit of it makes such a huge difference. )

    Spirit will be your "base" mana regeneration. Along with INT based regen. - Replenishment, S.fiend, Hymn, Innervate etc.

    So I say it once again, your stats is something you'll need to judge based on a couple of these statements I've mentioned

    Now let's get over to What can I ask myself to improve my healing?

    A couple of things I usually ask myself:

    *What kind of encounter are we facing and what mechanics does it use?

    This question makes me self want to consider the different bosses we're facing each week. When I first got into cataclysm raiding for the first time a couple weeks after the release, I was rather terrified that'd it would be harder than it actually was.

    As time goes you'll get used to each encounter and you'll feel more " comfortable " with knowing each boss inside out from doing it.


    So first of all, do some feedback on the abilities and various mechanics each boss use. It'll help you Predict when you need to use this and when you need to use that.

    Tip from the coach: Cataclysm raids and dungeons has brought a rather " Predictable " pattern of when each boss ability will pop up. Knowing each of these patterns for each boss will benefit you greatly.

    Tankspot got some great videos that explains each of the various boss encounters and that'll probably help you out alot.

    Edit: There are no actual guidelines. But there are a some that improves it.

    1. Lightwell - Tell your raid to click it in AoE damage situations as the HPS & HPM is just insane, it's your best healing spell. But your worst if people can't even manage to use it.

    2. Time your Chakra states - depending on the damage. If you know 1st. 30 seconds won't be any AoE damage, then go for Serenity if the opposite, go for Sanctuary and remember to always manage your chakra and adjust to the situation that comes.

    --- Most important ---

    Use your heals wisely. And learn to predict what heal that'll help you the most at that moment. There really is nothing else to say more than this and by doing this and practice ( Random Heroic works wonders ). ; why I mentioned "random" is that sometimes you get so called "random" and not 3/5 premade and 2/5 pug. And by this reason you'll experience different elements, such as DPS standing in shit, tank doing it all wrong, etc causing various kind of damage etc.

    Aside from that I got not much else to say than good luck and hope my post was of any help =)
    Last edited by martiz; 2011-01-31 at 05:32 PM.

  7. #27
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    So tired of Mastery vs Haste post

    OP if you go all out on haste or you go all out on Mastery you're doing it wrong,

    Mastery is a very nice stat for raid healing, in heavy AE dmg it will be number 2 or 3 on your top heals

    The only thing haste is going to do for you healing wise is provide throughput, if you can't get by with 0 Haste you're raid/you are doing something wrong. If you're running OOM you're doing it wrong (or your raid is and haste) If you're ovearhealing by more than 10% you're doing it wrong.

    This is not to say you shouldn't pick up haste but after darkness and 5% from raid buff you don't need a whole lot more.

    TLDR balance your stats the greatest gain you are going to get is by experience and using the right heal at the right time.
    Coming from the guy that values crit over haste. Take his words like a grain of salt.

    This wasn't a haste vs. mastery post. He was asking for all around advice. Should have read the entire thread imo.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    Coming from the guy that values crit over haste. Take his words like a grain of salt. .
    Crit is valuable I have crit on my healing gear but between spirit and mastery it is nothing I chose over unless the gear piece overall is a nice upgrade to spirit/int and no one else wants it. But anyway that's throwing this even more off topic, appreciate the attention though, makes me feel special.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    Crit is valuable
    As a raid healing Holy Priest, here's where you lose all credibility on stat weightings.
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  10. #30
    Is it bad because EJ said crit is bad? is a spell doing 1.5x the amount of hits heal with no additional mana cost bad? Is inspiration bad? Crit will lose its luster if you stack it but having some crit is good. I have a feeling some priest if they could would take all their crit % mastery and go strait up haste and to me that makes them lose all creditability in my eyes. /sigh Just because I don't go with whats popular I guess that makes me a bad priest despite playing this game 6 years and clearing most content
    Last edited by zenkai; 2011-02-01 at 01:32 PM. Reason: fixed brain laps :)

  11. #31
    It's not bad because EJ say it's bad, it's bad because the spreadsheets say it's bad. At the end of the day, EJ uses spreadsheets. Tankspot uses spreadsheets. I use spreadsheets.

    All you have to do is plug in the numbers and it'll tell you plain as the sunlight that crit is a Holy Priest's least valuable stat.

    Something to have 0 of? Not by any means.

    Something to avoid? Heavens no?

    What we're saying is: If I see Springvale Cloak or that cloak off of Rahj, I'm going with the Haste cloak every day and twice on Sunday. If I get the Crit Cloak, I'll reforge it and get by.

    If you'll continue to contend that Crit is as good as you say it is, then man up, get the spreadsheets to prove it, and post them on EJ and Tankspot to change people's minds. No one will take you serious without numbers.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    Is it bad because EJ said crit is bad? is a spell doing 2x the amount of hits heal with no additional mana cost bad? Is inspiration bad? Crit will lose its luster if you stack it but having some crit is good. I have a feeling some priest if they could would take all their crit % mastery and go strait up haste and to me that makes them lose all creditability in my eyes. /sigh Just because I don't go with whats popular I guess that makes me a bad priest despite playing this game 6 years and clearing most content
    Crit's never been "2x". Ever. You're a healer, not a caster.

    EJ said it was good in Sunwell, it wasn't good then either (have they ever actually understoof why Haste is good?) They've liked it in the past, because on a spreadsheet it "works", but...
    It's an RNG thoroughput, and stacking it doesn't remove or even reduce that fact. Period.

    Not to mention for every stat point allocated for the random and crappy stat that is random critical healing, you could have more from Haste, or rock solid reliable output from Mastery.

    And for the record, I like Mastery. I've said it before and I'll say it again: we're lucky to have such an awesome one. I value it currently at about the rate of 85% of Haste on my gear, because sure output is higher, but the little trickle during low stress situations shouldn't be an ideal point to gear for.

    But of course, you are one of the countless people that don't appreciate the value of a faster cast time, still caught up in "it makes you oom".

    And for the record, you've been playing a month and a half, with related experience between four and two years ago. It's a different game, no one cares when you "signed up", or how long you've been doing it. Nor your claim to clear "most content".
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    Is it bad because EJ said crit is bad? is a spell doing 2x the amount of hits heal with no additional mana cost bad? Is inspiration bad? Crit will lose its luster if you stack it but having some crit is good. I have a feeling some priest if they could would take all their crit % mastery and go strait up haste and to me that makes them lose all creditability in my eyes. /sigh Just because I don't go with whats popular I guess that makes me a bad priest despite playing this game 6 years and clearing most content
    I'm on board with you with valuing Mastery more than haste, and I do keep a balance of them with a bit of a favoring toward Mastery and it works out very well for me. However, my playstyle and role in my raid is well suited to this priority, and I can understand the other perspective for other playstyles and roles. But I just can't understand your perspective on Crit.

    First, it's 1.5x, not 2x. When you actually work out the HPS gain relative to the itemization spent on it, it's poor.

    Second, it's unpredictable. This unpredictability hurts you in multiple ways, but I find it particularly frustrating because I feel that, as primarily raid healers, Crit doesn't really help a whole lot with a tool like PoH because either that group needs another PoH, or it doesn't and, as such, Crits don't really help there. I find it most helpful for throughput to be predictable, which it is with Mastery and Haste, because I can make more accurate predictions about my future spell selections. Sure, it might sometimes save your ass when you get a nice big 35k Crit on a near-death tank, but for everyone of those, you're probably just as likely to get a Crit that either directly or indirectly overheals

    Third, it's pretty much a non-issue when it comes to tank healing and Inspiration. With just Intellect and Raid buffs, getting 20-25% Crit is easy. When you're actually tank healing, you're in Serenity for another free 10%, and when you have the buff from HW:Serenity, it's even higher, so Inspiration isn't much concern. If you're raid healing, well, how much do you really care about it's uptime on the raid when they will generally take very little physical damage anyway?


    The only place where I want crit on my gear is my Helm enchant, since it's unavoidable, and the one piece I need for my 4-piece bonus. Sure, I'll take it if it's otherwise a decent upgrade, particularly since I'm able to reforge some of it away, but it's definitely the least desirable secondary stat for my playstyle and any playstyle I can imagine being successful.

  14. #34
    Think i forgot to mention one thing; I'm the type of person that can put together a lot of tiny pieces, rearrange them by necessity and develop a method to overcome an obstacle. The problem of being that kind of a person is that until i have sufficient "pieces" i'm no better during a raid than the crappy slacker you bring to the raid because you have noone else.

    I'm mentioning this in an attempt to explain the random and seemingly stupid behavior where i just do what people suggest. I'm not considering someone else's PoV to be correct or true, but i will follow it blindly as a means of testing it since what I lack isn't the general idea of how to approach healing (although much appreciated), but the in-depth understanding of the class.

    I am the kind of guy who will go from 6-7k HPS to 11-12k on every fight (as long as it's practically doable within the spec) if I succeed in understanding how to go about and think when healing with my respective class. That is to be honest the most challenging thing to me right now.

    The statement that is most accurate is the "Use the right spell at the right time" - one. Which makes it impossible to learn simply by reading "I use spell X when Y happens". Since factors such as situational talents (Test of Faith and Blessed Resilience come to mind), practical experience with the group of raiders on the encounter in question and behavior of the other healers in the raid generally impact healing.

    I've read a whole lot of priest threads including the EJ posts and I follow the discussions vigorously. I've gone over my talents and respecced many times only the past few days experimenting with different setups. STILL i've found myself missing very obvious things such as who i should prioritize, when some players in the raid drop to or below 50% health (ToF talent). Or for example using Divine Hymn where the raid damage isn't entierely raid wide or RNG simply favoring the use of DH ahead of PoH and other spells (which have no CD and thus being spells i don't have to hesitate before using to make sure i don't waste a CD).

    It's not because i don't KNOW about he talents, because I do. I just can't "connect" it to what i am supposed to do until other "pieces" have fallen into place aswell. In general one can say i simply lack the confidence (even with great knowledge, without confidence the healing will remain "okay") a healer needs to have (Which i used to have on my shaman) in order to actually effectively heal and not have my judgement clouded.

    Okay. With all that said, i'm still bound to be making ridicolous mistakes that even someone who recently started playing the game might not make. I don't have all the pieces and am still not comfortable with the class itself (i like it, don't get me wrong and i enjoy playing it) so i'll need time to become a frikkin' awesome healer. What I am looking for now when i keep posting my future WoL parses is advice in the form of pointing out where mistakes were made during a raid or encounter (what spells were used mainly, but i'll try to Fraps and upload videos aswell).

    I know all the basic stuff (and again, thanks for spending a fair bit of time writing those posts to those who did) a healer should know, i just fail to use it until i have the whole picture. It's very obvious to me, but at the same time it isn't...sort of. I need to see and experience things for myself, but i can't do it all alone without having someone pointing out a thing or two now and then to keep me on the right track.

    TL;DR version:
    Pick on my WoL Parses, Armory and possible video-recordings and tell me where obvious mistakes or sub-par desicions were made.

  15. #35
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archicortex View Post
    I know all the basic stuff (and again, thanks for spending a fair bit of time writing those posts to those who did) a healer should know, i just fail to use it until i have the whole picture. It's very obvious to me, but at the same time it isn't...sort of. I need to see and experience things for myself, but i can't do it all alone without having someone pointing out a thing or two now and then to keep me on the right track.
    We all do my friend. That's the beauty of community

    You're already better than most because you are seeking help, criticism and advice. Most don't.

  16. #36
    May I borrow the thread a little bit?

    I want you guys to check my gear for any improvements/optimization. I'm currently valuing haste more than mastery, and my Heal's go off for about a 2.2 sec cast. I'm not having healing issues, though I'm kind of a perfectionist, wanting to optimize my gear through whatever means possible. I try to stay above a 2.5k spirit, and I'm currently looking for a lot of Int on the gear (why I chose the dps-bracers).

    The armory link is in my signature.

    Any answer is appreciated!
    Last edited by Kloeba; 2011-02-01 at 12:59 AM. Reason: no link

  17. #37
    Archicortex -

    I think I may be able to help some of your woes by using examples of what was hardest for me to get used to in Cata:

    Tank Healing:
    - Renew Renew Renew. Make sure it's always up.
    - HW: Serenity every Cooldown - it heals for as much as Heal, costs less, and buffs the crit on your next 2 heals basically. (Enough time for a Flash x Greater combo)
    - Binding Heal is your Friend - it Stacks Serendipity
    - Flash x Greater Combos are fantastic uppers for tanks with Serendipity
    - PoM only in emergencies, it costs a lot to not have it bounce more than 2 times.
    - Communicate with your tank so he doesn't blow Shield Wall or Last Stand at the same time you blow Guardian Spirit.

    Raid Healing:
    - 4.0.6 Renew is your friend again! Use it when 3 or less people need healing. When 4 or more need healing, PoH
    - HW: Sanctuary may not heal for a lot, but it is a FANTASTIC supplement. Having a group standing in Sanctuary while you PoH + CoH combo will do some major healing.
    - Try not to chain cast PoH on groups - the Glyph *will* overwrite itself, even if it is weaker. If you can manage, let the Glyph tick out before you do another PoH. Sometimes this can't be helped.
    - Single Target Heals are never your friend in Raid Healing, use sparingly. - they will make you oom too fast, and it is a detriment to what other raid healers are doing. (Imagine a Priest and a Druid Raid healing, while you chose to Single target a group member up to full instead of AoE healing, you just waste the HoTs that the Druid just put on that target)

    The ultimate point I'm trying to get across is:
    - Chakra stances are your friend.
    - Holy Priests have more versatility than any healer: It is our great strength, and our Achilles heel. I have 16 buttons for different healing situations.
    - FOR THE LOVE OF GOD AND ALL THAT IS HOLY - Train your raid to use the lightwell. It is immensely powerful. No spell in the game save for perhaps Lay on Hands provides such healing for so little mana invested.

  18. #38
    Quick question: On my character (pressing "C"), it says I have 6,60% haste. Does this value include darkness or not? Because if it doesn't, I've been walking around with a lot more haste than I thought lol.

  19. #39
    Re roll as a paladin.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Miradian View Post
    Re roll as a paladin.
    Thank you for your valuable contribution to this thread. And it was your first or second post on this site! An awesome start!

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