The theory of giving Tricks

[Phocket]

How can you possibly think its even remotely the same thing giving someone a few percent of crit vs giving
someone a flat 15% damage increase?

Any rogue in their right mind will glyph Tricks. If they don't they are only gimping their dps and not providing a benefit to the raid. So, therefore, it'd only be 10% increase (which is still a decent amount) but it's for 6 seconds, every 30 seconds. It's not like you're going to be doing 5k dps more if someone tosses you tricks of the trade.

[Strafir]

why do mages exchange FM? Why do warlocks exchange DI?

Giving your superwarlockpal DI instead of a hunter or moonkin is also extremely stupid, because the DPS
increase simply isnt significant enough.

[Phocket]

Swapping trix is just like putting it on the tank, so why not boost eachother's damage?

You have to be careful about how much threat the person you're tossing it to can pull. If they happen to pop cd's and trinkets right as they receive tricks, you could be in a world of hurt if you can't at least keep equal threat.

[Hermes0277]

The range on it is not that big there are some bosses that if you are dps from the back at max range you can't even tricks the tank cause he isn't in range. So the only people that have an argument are warriors. enhance shammy, ret pally's, and feral druids, and if your rogues can't do better dps then those classes they probably shouldn't be in your raid.

[Nasser]

Perhaps because the boss then will be downed earlier and thus is easier for anyone in the raid and even safer to play? Why would you gimp your raid-dps just to get back something you don't need? It's all about the raid as a whole and not just you or your rogue friend looking better in the dps-meter. Why should a prot paladin use the 20% raid-damage-decrease? Can you see this anywhere in recount? It's a GCD not used to make damage or to generate threat, but it's still very intelligent to use it, because it helps the raid to down the boss.

Comparing apples to oranges - and read the last part of my original message - if the boss is on farm, then I will care about min-maxing my dps and doing exceptional things (even if for the lulz) which would not have been possible on progression fights.

Also, 15% for 6 seconds, 30 sec CD = 3% overall dmg increase, that's not gonna shave minutes off a fight, more like seconds. If its on farm, its already easy and safe for everyone. The only two options are tanks or other rogues - tanks may need threat, other rogues give me an equal dps increase as I do to them, and here's your exact logic - "Why would you gimp your raid-dps just to get back something you don't need?" - the top spot dpers dont need that dps either if the boss is on farm!

[failrogue]

Why should rogue's give it out? Is your group wiping to enrage timers that badly? Honestly, if so, then the best bet would be to grab a few more pieces of gear all around. Or for people to know what their classes are.

Also, rogues not being top 5, they had better be in bad gear. Or be combat.

[-Raer-]

alright 15% increased damage for 6 seconds...that's going to be so amazing for a lock/mage/boomkin who will probably only utilize it for at most 3 spells (if they're lucky), where the melee class, like a fast swinging rogue, is probably getting off more hits within that time frame. and as pointed out earlier that gives like a 50dps increase, who cares who it goes to. sounds like a bunk ability imo especially if the rogue glyphs it.

Well you have to account that your 5-10 melee swings won't hit for 20k to 40k. So those 3 casts depending on RNG could easily trump your 10 melee swings. Personally as a Mage I love tricks, but most encounters don't allow me to be close enough to receive them. Back in Wrath on some encounters that were dps races I'd stand withing 20 yards of the melee so one of our rogues could tricks me, and he did so gladly because it was more of a net gain to do so. It's all in how you're playing the game, if you PUG a lot and aren't min maxing then you'll find rogues that only tricks the tank and each other.

[Deleted]

Pugs are pugs are pugs..

I could give you a loong list of all the things that annoy me in pug groups

[Figoment]

Because they think if they give it too a rogue then they get ir from that rogue (Usually correct) and it makes their numbers bigger.

[Vuji]

Wait, people out dps me?

[Deleted]

The only person I toss TotT to is the tank. That's it. And, I also toss it to them whenever it's up. It's supposed to alleviate some of the threat we build up over time, and the extra 10% damage for 6 seconds comes out to about a 50 dps increase if tossed to another rogue or hunter or any other dps class.

Lol did you pull that number out of your arse? TotTing another dps is 2% dps increase if used on cooldown. Your dpsers must be doing 2.5k dps to get 50 dps increase from TotT. Assuming you have the glyph, otherwise it's even 3% increase.

[Deleted]

Swapping trix is just like putting it on the tank, so why not boost eachother's damage?

I'm sorry but this is completely not true in the slightest.

If 2 rogues are tricks'ing each other, its like the threat doesn't move. The only thing you get is the 15% damage bonus. The tank gets no additional threat and 2 rogues BOTH get additional threat from 15% damage (small but, its still there).

Now 2 rogues give the tank tricks. Both rogues are now LOWER on threat than above. On top of this the tank is higher on threat not including the extra damage bonus.

I really can't see how you think these 2 situations are even remotely the same. If 2 rogues tricks each other the tank gets 0 threat, rogues get more threat than they would without using tricks at all.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I am all for giving tricks to rogues or whomever is going to get the most out of the damage. But only if the tank does not need threat. Its annoying to see rogues giving tricks to each other at the beginning, especially when threat sucks at the start of a fight due to vengeance.

[Adalwolf]

Why do 19 of 20 rogues think its a good idea to give tricks to another rogue, just because he gives it to them,
if neither of them are located within the top5 DPS _WITH_ tricks?!

I mean if a warrior, lock, shadowpriest of mage is amazingly good in a certain aspect of the boss, how can
the tiny tiny brain of a rogue calculate it to give the tricks to the auto attacking rogue pal?

Please oh please fill me in why.

If you were in my raid, I'd gladly give you Tricks only to watch you die afterwards, for posting such an moronic thread. Rogues give tricks to each other because TotT transfers all the aggro from the rogue to the target, and a TotT nullifies another. If a rogue with high DPS gave TotT to any class other than a mage, a hunter or another rogue, this someone would pull aggro from the boss for sure. In any fight that the ranged are spread out, mages and hunters will most likely be out of TotT's range, thus the only option left is another rogue.

[devinedragoon]

Why do 19 of 20 rogues think its a good idea to give tricks to another rogue, just because he gives it to them,
if neither of them are located within the top5 DPS _WITH_ tricks?!

I mean if a warrior, lock, shadowpriest of mage is amazingly good in a certain aspect of the boss, how can
the tiny tiny brain of a rogue calculate it to give the tricks to the auto attacking rogue pal?

Please oh please fill me in why.

Part in due to the fact that most of what you mentioned are ranged a.k.a out of range of tot. and getting in range would = dps loss. i as a rogue depending on grp make up tot and rogue adn they get me but always start off with a tot to the tank. and if said rogue should die i trick a warr ret pally or tanks depending on aggro. but that's just me.

and as for 50dps difference i hate to say but when i get a tot i notice more then a 50 dps difference then w/o

[Hermes0277]

I'm sorry but this is completely not true in the slightest.

If 2 rogues are tricks'ing each other, its like the threat doesn't move. The only thing you get is the 15% damage bonus. The tank gets no additional threat and 2 rogues BOTH get additional threat from 15% damage (small but, its still there).

Now 2 rogues give the tank tricks. Both rogues are now LOWER on threat than above. On top of this the tank is higher on threat not including the extra damage bonus.

I really can't see how you think these 2 situations are even remotely the same. If 2 rogues tricks each other the tank gets 0 threat, rogues get more threat than they would without using tricks at all.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I am all for giving tricks to rogues or whomever is going to get the most out of the damage. But only if the tank does not need threat. Its annoying to see rogues giving tricks to each other at the beginning, especially when threat sucks at the start of a fight due to vengeance.

Cause the threat boost is not permanent. It goes away.

[Phocket]

Lol did you pull that number out of your arse? TotTing another dps is 2% dps increase if used on cooldown. Your dpsers must be doing 2.5k dps to get 50 dps increase from TotT. Assuming you have the glyph, otherwise it's even 3% increase.

Yes the number was pulled out of my ass. Remember, it's 6 seconds of 10% damage increase. So let's say you're a mage. You're hitting 30k ab's. That means your ab's are now hitting for 33k, but for only 6 seconds. You don't do a permanent 10% for the entire fight.

Edit: Also, using it every cd may or may not be viable for certain fights. If I toss tricks to someone, and then there's a lull in the fight, where dps need's to re-arrange or run out of something, that tricks just got wasted.

Edit 2: And as far as the 2%, that's in a best case scenario. In all practicality, it's probably closer to 1%. Although even 1% more dps is decent (think: 15k dps is now 16.5k) but, rogues are heavily penalized for not using tricks in the right situation. If we (or the person we're about to toss tricks to) is high on the threat table, tossing it to the tank will be more beneficial.

Note: more dps isn't as good as doing more damage. You cold pull 90k dps, but if you're alive for all of 2 seconds, you did the group 0 good.

[Flitzz]

Tricksing each other cancels out the threat transfer... even if it isnt permanent, the threat still remains for 30 seconds.

[Deleted]

How can you possibly think its even remotely the same thing giving someone a few percent of crit vs giving
someone a flat 15% damage increase?

Since ToT have 20% uptime, when used on CD, it is pretty similiar.

[Krid]

I'm sorry but this is completely not true in the slightest.

If 2 rogues are tricks'ing each other, its like the threat doesn't move. The only thing you get is the 15% damage bonus. The tank gets no additional threat and 2 rogues BOTH get additional threat from 15% damage (small but, its still there).

Now 2 rogues give the tank tricks. Both rogues are now LOWER on threat than above. On top of this the tank is higher on threat not including the extra damage bonus.

I really can't see how you think these 2 situations are even remotely the same. If 2 rogues tricks each other the tank gets 0 threat, rogues get more threat than they would without using tricks at all.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I am all for giving tricks to rogues or whomever is going to get the most out of the damage. But only if the tank does not need threat. Its annoying to see rogues giving tricks to each other at the beginning, especially when threat sucks at the start of a fight due to vengeance.

Both tricks the tank off the bat and use vanish. You sir are bad.

[The Chad]

It's so we can use it at the beginning of the fight without killing someone by accident. When Warriors piss me off, I trick them at the beginning, and the boss is likely to smash them. Makes me smile everytime.