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  1. #21
    The Patient doombledore's Avatar
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    hit will help you the next patch since all paladins get rebuke.
    other than that, i don´t know.
    If Pinocchio says: My nose will now grow.
    What will happen??

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by doombledore View Post
    hit will help you the next patch since all paladins get rebuke.
    other than that, i don´t know.
    Tanks shouldn't be on interupt duty anyway, if there is no choice but to put tank on interupt duty then you have other more serious problems.

  3. #23
    Hitcap will be more useful in 4.0.6 with Rebuke being baseline. Prot paladins getting interrupts in will be raid damage mitigation and is important not to miss. If you're not going to do interrupts, however, hitcap isn't that important.

    ---------- Post added 2011-01-31 at 07:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Judge40 View Post
    Tanks shouldn't be on interupt duty anyway, if there is no choice but to put tank on interupt duty then you have other more serious problems.
    Every little bit helps. Like on Arcanotron. It would be especially useful there.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge40 View Post
    Tanks shouldn't be on interupt duty anyway, if there is no choice but to put tank on interupt duty then you have other more serious problems.
    Halfus hc 10 man if you don't got a shaman is pretty fucked up without having a tank interrupting.

  5. #25
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Okay..so with that you basically kill the validity to any guilde. Similar suggestions (that Paladins don't need to be hitcapped etc) can be found on maintankadin too.

    Yes..I do think if it works for a guy in a top guild, then it would work for others too. Yes, ofc it would be great to get pinpointed advice, tailored exactly to the needs of the OP and his guild...but we have no info about him and his guild - which is where general advice comes in. You are creating a specific situation here.

    Let me ask the other way round then: Your advice to the guy would be: Get the retri legs as tank? Because he lacks hit?
    No, but the point I was making is it isn't as cut and dried as 'hit+exp are useless' (I know it wasn't you saying those words).

    My point, which has been echoed in some other posts is that in a 10 man, 'normal' guild environment we can't go for the pure best of our specs, sometimes comprimises have to be reached, and one of mine is that I have a higher hit rating than 'needed' because it helps out some of my other raiders, especially at the very start of the fight. My healers know this, and understand this.

    As I have also said I have tried both, and just think for the risk introduced I can't see the benefit of stacking pure avoidence AT MY RAIDING LEVEL. I can't stress that enough. The missed burst is still pretty important in my eyes, more important than maybe the few % I get from not having it.

    Overall though it was more to be another opinion on the debate, rather than just going OFMG PARAGON MT HAS IT I MUST HAVE IT

  6. #26
    Blademaster Spellpl's Avatar
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    nvm did not check that rebuke is Physical
    Last edited by Spellpl; 2011-01-31 at 01:51 PM.

  7. #27
    Stood in the Fire
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    Avenger's Shield
    The chance to hit with this ability is improved by adding hit rating.

    Tooltip

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Spellpl View Post
    Ok i did check few things.
    I play DK so i could did not know it but if u play paladin and you are tanking AND u dont know that ur PROTECTION SUMMARY PASSIVE that gives you:

    "Touched by the Light
    Increases your total Stamina by 15%, increases your spell hit by 8%, and increases your spell power by an amount equal to 60% of your Strength."

    Means u are totaly Hitcapped to be interrupter on all bosses after 4.0.6.
    Rebuke works on physical hit...

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge40 View Post
    For at least the current tier hit is meaningless to us, vengeance scaling takes care of threat. Outside of the first 5-10 seconds that hit wont help you with threat, unless you're threat capping the dps (in which case you're doing something wrong anyway).

    In later tiers if bosses miss rate goes up to force dps to need more hit then we'll likely need some hit too, until then just ignore it.
    it's 100% impossible to get the DW hit cap right now, miss rate won't go up unless they plan on reverting the change that made 27% hit desirable in the first place

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by MarriageAuch View Post
    And this is what I hate about this community. The guy ina top guild with top guildies around him does it so it must be right.


    What about if you have a dps team around you who arent top of their game, or healers who arent 'pro'. The point is the first 30 seconds of a fight it's important to get aggro and sustain it quite well. With a group of pimped out ppl who play as a career this is a pretty easy thing to achieve. But what do you know, not everyone is like that, heck, I would say most ARENT like that. For the most part the balanced approach serves most people well.

    But yeah, the 'best' guy in the game does it, let's all copy him and not think about how we minions play the game.
    First off, if tanks from the guilds with some of the top DPS in the entire world (therefore some of the highest threat DPS in the entire world) don't need hit or expertise to hold threat, it follows that most tanks, who DON'T have the top DPS in the world, need hit/expertise even less. If your DPS can't back off for the first 10 seconds of a fight IF you get double/triple parried/miss/dodged (the only situation where DPS would even have a prayer of pulling aggro) then it's their fault for pulling aggro and dying. The fact is, even with multiple parries/dodges/misses from the tank at the start of the fight, after the first 15 seconds, if you're following a correct threat rotation it's just not possible to lose threat.

    Secondly, those talking about needing hit for threat are just silly. Expertise gives you more threat than Hit any day of the week, considering when you use expertise you are lowering both the mobs chance to parry AND their chance to dodge. So until dodge cap, Expertise is twice the value of Hit in terms of threat.

    Thirdly, as a tank who stacks neither hit or expertise, I find no problems with interrupts in my raid. Those complaining about it: Seriously, you don't have two classes in your raid that can interrupt? Every melee class has an interrupt, so you're saying you don't have two melee classes in your entire raid? I didn't realize there were so many raids out there stacked with 5 shadowpriests in them (the only class that doesn't have a real interrupt).

    Lastly, if you're raiding with 0 melee/5 shadowpriests for DPS, you're likely not working on hardmodes, in which case, hitting every single interrupt is not even close to necessary. Arcanotron? You can miss over half the interrupts and still be just fine on healer mana if your healers are in 346 gear and not complete idiots. Maloriak? We missed interrupts all the time on Maloriak, we'd just interrupt the next one or two while the tanks tanked the mobs for longer. Is it more mana? Sure. Is it a wipe? Nope. Halfus? The shadow nova hits like a wet noodle. Again, a situation where you can miss interrupting on half of them, and still be fine so long as you're not standing in fireballs. The only real "needed" interrupts on normal modes are Twilight Council and Cho'gall's adds.

    All of this is pointless when you realize you can miss far more than 8% of your interrupts (amount needed for a tank to cap hit for interrupting) and still be fine on every single normal encounter except for perhaps Cho'gall and Nefarian. And this is assuming YOUR ONLY INTERRUPTER in the ENTIRE RAID is your tank...

    TLDR:
    Expertise is better than hit for threat. (But not needed)
    If the only interrupters in your raid are tanks, then you're not doing heroics with that group comp, therefore 8% miss rate on interrupts won't wipe your raid, so you still don't need hit.

    On Topic: No, you don't need the ret pants, because you don't need hit rating.
    Last edited by Snared; 2011-01-31 at 02:00 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Subbb View Post
    Halfus hc 10 man if you don't got a shaman is pretty fucked up without having a tank interrupting.
    Easy, tank the drake being killed directly next to Halfus. Have DPS focus Halfus and use a macro to interupt focus target when needed.

    With the need for tank switching having tanks do the interupt is more hassle than it's worth for a simple macro and reposition solution.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by MarriageAuch View Post
    No, but the point I was making is it isn't as cut and dried as 'hit+exp are useless' (I know it wasn't you saying those words).

    My point, which has been echoed in some other posts is that in a 10 man, 'normal' guild environment we can't go for the pure best of our specs, sometimes comprimises have to be reached, and one of mine is that I have a higher hit rating than 'needed' because it helps out some of my other raiders, especially at the very start of the fight. My healers know this, and understand this.

    As I have also said I have tried both, and just think for the risk introduced I can't see the benefit of stacking pure avoidence AT MY RAIDING LEVEL. I can't stress that enough. The missed burst is still pretty important in my eyes, more important than maybe the few % I get from not having it.

    Overall though it was more to be another opinion on the debate, rather than just going OFMG PARAGON MT HAS IT I MUST HAVE IT
    only point in capping hit is for interrupts, and if you're the interrupt guy and the tank guy your guild is the not gonna get far guild

    you don't cap hit for threat right now, tell your dps to wait 30 seconds and that will get them to hold off at least 5

    and no, the goddamn mechanics have changed which is WHY paragon's MT does it

    the reason YOU should do it is because the goddamn mechanics have changed

    they removed parry haste from bosses, they gave taunt a 100% chance to work

    well, the ONLY other reasons to cap hit/exp is threat and interrupts, you have dps who can interrupt and your interrupt will still hit pretty much every time at 0% hit JIC, threat is a joke and even in wotlk, it wasn't easier to hold threat
    Last edited by blizzardcashshop; 2011-01-31 at 01:55 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by blizzardcashshop View Post
    it's 100% impossible to get the DW hit cap right now, miss rate won't go up unless they plan on reverting the change that made 27% hit desirable in the first place
    It has been suggested that bosses base dodge/parry/defense/miss rates will rise tier by tier to make sure it is always useful to get more expertise/hit, rather than working around the same caps and getting more of everything else. And defense so crit rates are more controllable.

    Will mean Blizzard can 'force' stats to inflate in an even spread, removing a lot of the stacking of a single stat that plague wotlk.

  14. #34
    The simple reason I value the hit cap so highly is because I F*&^ING HATE MISSING. Seriously have you guys ever ran a heroic where you carefully CC the group, and then toss a calculated Avenger's Shield to pull the group and the damn thing careens off after the first mob and doesn't hit the other two? It just ruins everything and makes for sloppy pulls. I don't do things sloppy.

    Actually the threat is helpful as well, because I have a DK in my guild that likes to pull 25k DPS, and he can be tricky to gain a lead on in some fights. Also the fact that I'm getting rebuke, I run in a 10m guild and I like to have as much utility as possible.

  15. #35
    Best Kitten Simca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruzhyo View Post
    The simple reason I value the hit cap so highly is because I F*&^ING HATE MISSING. Seriously have you guys ever ran a heroic where you carefully CC the group, and then toss a calculated Avenger's Shield to pull the group and the damn thing careens off after the first mob and doesn't hit the other two? It just ruins everything and makes for sloppy pulls. I don't do things sloppy.

    Actually the threat is helpful as well, because I have a DK in my guild that likes to pull 25k DPS, and he can be tricky to gain a lead on in some fights. Also the fact that I'm getting rebuke, I run in a 10m guild and I like to have as much utility as possible.
    A lot of people feel this way, and it is fine. At the end of the day, the difference between that Hit and the Mastery/Stamina/Avoidance you sacrifice isn't that massive.

    It's the people that try to push their positive view of Hit on others to justify their own beliefs that have problems (not saying you are!) because the honest reality is that Hit is 100x less useful than it once was.
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  16. #36
    It is a question of min/maxing. If you are then you won't stack hit. If you are not then do whatever you like.

  17. #37
    Al'akir drops tanking legs, just wait for those. Theyve dropped 4 times for my guild already.

  18. #38
    Stat wise the Ret legs are really good for Prot because it has a lot of Mastery and you can just reforge hit to Dodge, but the 4 piece is really good so I'd just get the prot legs.

  19. #39
    If by good for port you mean having 60% of your hit as wasted points and the wrong set bonus then yes it is. Mastery may be good but dodge and parry are very close and look at that...no wasted itemization points.

  20. #40
    High Overlord Andergard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theonegod View Post
    It is a question of min/maxing. If you are then you won't stack hit. If you are not then do whatever you like.
    This, along with what Simca said, sums it up. You won't "omg die asplode" from taking Hit, but it is generally agreed upon (check EJ, for example) that Hit is not worth it. In fact, guides I've read tell you to reforge away from it in favour of Mastery/Parry (or Mastery/Dodge, in my case).

    Even Feral Bears, when you start thinking about our main mitigation mechanic being Savage Defense which procs off our Crits, don't need (and don't want) Hit nor Exp, because Dodge or Mastery are just better for the task at hand (i.e. surviving); a piddling increase in chance to hit and/or not get parried/dodged, which in turn gives an even more piddling increase in chance to crit, which still is only on a 50% chance to proc an SD, is less worth it than a piddling increase in the chance to not get hit and/or the amount absorbed by every SD proc you'll ever have. But I digress on bearly (excuse the pun) relevant issues...

    Since you don't even have a core mitigation mechanic that is based on Hit, welcome to the world of not giving a sod about said stat.

    I too am beginning to boil a kettle whenever I hear the infamous KLONK sound of being blocked, but I'm getting used to it. Even for interrupts, the actual percentage chance of missing is quite low, and the overall gain of getting rid of all possible Hit adds up quite nicely in the end.
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