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  1. #41
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarriageAuch View Post
    Anyone thinking hit/expertise is just about TPS needs to read up.
    Hit is useful for interrupt, which as others have pointed out, is typically handled by others.
    Other than interrupts, Hit is only useful for TPS, whether this is on the pull or later, threat is threat.

    Expertise in the absence of parry-hasting is purely for TPS as well.

    Before you make any counter-arguments to these posts, you should consider why the rest of the world disagrees with you.

  2. #42
    if the best prot gear youve got has hit on it, great, but dont gem for it

  3. #43
    You guys may have convinced me to try dropping my hit rating. I'm already used to losing my Sacred Duty proc thanks to having little to no expertise, so I haven't got a lot more to lose. My off-tank is a hit-capped DK and he should be able to handle the interrupts, he already does. And besides, with the threat I lose from dropping hit, I may gain back in the prot 2 piece T11 bonus.

    But dammit I hate missing.

  4. #44
    Tanks only really need to reach the hit cap(Paladins not before next patch), so they're able to interrupt reliably without misses. Expertise is a non-issue at the moment.


    EDIT: Sure, in a 25-man tanks are probably not required to interrupt, but it certainly can't hurt for 10-mans. Always adjust your stats to your raiding settings
    Let the Hunger Games begin...

    Wind, Fire, Water, Earth and Spirit, the five elements.

  5. #45
    Tanking without beeing at least NEAR hitcap feels HORRIBLE.
    Yeah, if i get enough vengeance and dps always use tricks/misdirect in the beginning of a fight, i could probably work without it, but i will not.

    I'll keep my ~6%Hit and some expertise no matter what, i don't care if it means 2% less avoid.
    It's certainly enough to survive nonheroic bosses, and i can hold aggro on my own without relying to much on the dpsers.

    Ignoring hit/exp is just abusing the vengeance mechanic, that is overpowered in current level of progress.
    If you want to tank anything not giving you max vengeace reliably, dont do this. (heroics for example, i hover around 3-6k bonus ap there, which is NOT enough to hold aggro against decent dps if i have a lot of misses. And don't play the LTP-card.. prot pally has an incredibly easy rotation, you can't do "wrong" if you follow it.)
    Last edited by Envar; 2011-02-01 at 01:38 PM.

  6. #46
    I'm a tank in a 7/12 normal mode 10 man raiding guild, and I can tell you that I LOVE my avoidance. I'm trying pretty hard to gear out of any hit or expertise gear I have because I just don't need it. After the first 15 sec threat is way too easy to keep. So would I rather a.) improve my thps in the first 15 sec so my dps can burst from the start or b.) Improve my avoidance and take less damage over a 5-8min boss fight.

    I'll take the less damage over the boss fight thank you. Especially now that we are making attempts on chimaeron, that extra avoidance means everything as I'm the one tanking the double attacks.

    Also, I never have issues AoE tanking in heroics with these stats. So I'll keep it this way.

  7. #47
    Theres no black and white with hit/expertise for tanks. If you are in charge of interrupts (had to learn too some days ago here that taunts dont miss anymore) you better be hitcapped. Not that its clever for a raid to put the tank in charge of interrupts (especially a paladin pre 4.0.6.) seeing they have to give up survivability but still when you have to do it ... you have to be hitcapped.

  8. #48
    Field Marshal Mr P's Avatar
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    It is as simple as this: If you are min/maxing then skip hit/exp, otherwise, do whatever you want.

    If you got a proper raid setup tanks shouldn't be relied on to interrupt.
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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge40 View Post
    Tanks shouldn't be on interupt duty anyway, if there is no choice but to put tank on interupt duty then you have other more serious problems.
    If you're throwing a bunch of melees to interrupt hydrolances on council, using 2 or more dpsers to interrupt halfus, etc... in 10men instead of using the tank (unless it's a paladin pre 4.0.3), you have a serious problem in raid leading...

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by VanishO2 View Post
    If you're throwing a bunch of melees to interrupt hydrolances on council, using 2 or more dpsers to interrupt halfus, etc... in 10men instead of using the tank (unless it's a paladin pre 4.0.3), you have a serious problem in raid leading...
    Or we have a shaman.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Kissmonstar View Post
    Or we have a shaman.
    and a mage

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Yai View Post
    taunts can't miss. welcome to cata.
    Thank you for posting that... I hate noobs who think they need to hit 24/7 like a damn maniac trying to get all the attention in a group... Pro Tip for the debaters: If it ain't taunted, it's got to be stunned (or feared if possible)...

    OT: Unless you need the mastery, I would go for the Prot. T11 legs, and reforge Dodge into Parry (I'm assuming that you have the 'Hold the Line' talent... If you don't, then idk how you've managed to get this far outside of maybe BH runs and dps H's)... Don't sneeze those secondary perks, either, because they can be quite handy in a pitch when it matters...

    Also keep in mind that secondary specials are NOT ment to be game changing abilities, like the T10 sets were... Relying on something that's suppost to be 'special' to a character's gear is bad game play/ design... and I'm mostly sure Blizz wants to avoid that, seeing the PvP nerfs they are doing in 4.0.6

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by MagusUnion View Post
    ...and reforge Dodge into Parry (I'm assuming that you have the 'Hold the Line' talent... )
    That's for warriors. The pally equivalent gives us mana back when we dodge, so theoretically dodge would be > parry. But when I can't reforge into mastery, I just reforge whatever's highest into whatever's lowest to reduce the effects of diminishing returns.

  14. #54
    In reply to OP's question. I would not specifically go out and get Ret T11 legs and would use the Prot T11 ones personally for the higher avoidance. If your block % is low, you can work on farming Hellscream rep for the trinket or reforge your higher stat out of dodge/parry into some mastery. That said of course, if ret pants drop from Baradin Hold and there are no rets/paladins, use it as i have and replace it when you have enough VPs for prot legs.

  15. #55
    Stood in the Fire
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    Okay, so humility on the mmo forum incoming.

    I respecced on the overwhelming advice on here to PURE avoidence, ditched every reforge of hit/exp I had. Ended up with fully buffed about 81% of the 102.4, about 2% hit and 12 expertise.

    I don't know whether it was a general gear increase, or healers knowing this fact but it went really well, TPS was still not an issue (although I did put out a warning pre pull so ppl knew).

    So, it seems I was wrong. Sorry everyone.

  16. #56
    that 81% with pure mastery gemming aswel?

    as you should be around 90-95% if youve gemmed mastery aswel

  17. #57
    I haven't read anything past the first post, so if someone has already said this just ignore me - the 4 set bonus for prot is amazing and getting the T11 legs is pretty much required in order to have acess to it. Yes, you could just as easily get the headpiece or whatever instead of the legs, but the head from Maloriak (?) has 285 mastery. Using that instead of the T11 head from Nefarian and the prot legs instead of the ret legs will give you best stats overall. Including more mastery. End of.

  18. #58
    You propably also should read up.
    Everyone's saying "oh tanks shouldn't be relied on to interrupt" but they are sometimes. They just are. It doesn't mean you suck as a raid leader. It means you can adapt to any situation to get the job done. If you are relied on for interrupts, as I generally am with Avenger's Shield and HoJ (rotating) you absolutely need some hit. There are fights were things can go horribly wrong if your interrupts miss. This is largely dependent on your raid composition.

    I agree that threat is a non-issue, but paladins are VERY capable interrupters and this ability requires some hit.

    I'm also considering the ret legs. Be curious to see if anyone has mitigation stats comparing the two.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../lazeil/simple call me shallow, but I think what works for the MT of Paragon would work for everybody else too...
    You know what else he has? A PRO Guild at his back, with PRO healers and PRO melee and ranged dps. What works for him may be great if everything in the guild is a well-oiled machine. Most are not. And don't give me "find a new guild" because we get the job done and I really love my guildmates.

    Yes..I do think if it works for a guy in a top guild, then it would work for others too.
    Simply not true, that's what so great about the game. No one's gonna have his EXACT raid comp with his pro guildies. The beauty is to be able to adapt to your raid composition and adjust things to your individual playstyle.
    Last edited by lthompson94; 2011-02-02 at 03:29 PM.

  19. #59
    Hi guys long time lurker, first time poster.

    Firstly, heres my amoury link refernce

    hôlÿdiñ on barthelis us, first time post cant do links

    For the op:
    I looked at your character, some pieces uve reforged and gemmed to avoidance others hit others stam stacking. Getting the ret t11 pants as uve suggested would be a waste of vp, one because of set bonuses, secondly because of socket bonuses. Stick with prot t11. Also try to gem mastery and whatever you have less of dodge or parry, theres some nice gs that do both mastery/dodge and mastery/parry, anything but this is waste.

    For the others:
    Interupts: this should never be a tanks job. Tanks have a rotation to keep up in order to maintain tps. Paladin interupts at the current time are avengers shield(15 sec) and arcane torrent belf racial(2min cd). Warriors or shammy should be in your group, both with the best melee interupts in game aswell as a rouge. As stated above if you have a pally interuppting the you got bigger problems. Personally i try and help out, eg halfus shadow nova or arcaneatron, i try and time my avengers shield to have it ready to hit just to help out, and if it misses due to my low hit then no big deal because its not my main job to be doing that, that person will interuppt it. I do however use bubble and arcane torrent for halfus furious roar+shadow nova if we need to have it interuupted. But apart from that it just isnt a tanks concern, even with rebuke comming in, our raid grp sees it as a safety failsafe justincase if our assigned interuupters are busy. Better to have it and not use it then to not have it and wish you could use it.

    Hit v avoidance:
    Reforgeable Stats for tanks are split into 2 catergorys, hit or avoidance stats. Hit stats are expertise and hit while avoidance is mastery, dodge and parry. Dodge and parry should be aroubd atleast 10.5-11.5 % each and around the same each, if ones bigger than the other reforge accordingly. Expertise soft cap is 26, so having 16 means with the 10 extra from truth glyph means ur expertise is golden , you can even go lower, 16 isnt hard to reach, ive got 11 and im fine. Hit is useless past 2.5%, which means for a lvl88 boss ur missing 5% of the time, no problem cause vengence makes your attacks thay do hit compensate for the ones that miss.

    Finnaly id just like to say that from my experiance, im doing fine. Example on halfus with no malavoliant strike debuff, i can tank storm and time at the same time, keep threat on both and not take toi much damage with only divine protection up. Another example, last night we did maloriak. I was on adds. After a couple of attempts i found out that i could tank 9 adds and survive with wog myself and having the 2 pally healers beacon me and just divine protection up. I was keep threat. In the end it all comes down to how you as a pally tank use your spells and cds. You taking a hit load of damage? Pop both guardian and divine protection, and ull hardly take any damage till you can fix the problem. Valiona ans thaliona using blackout and your group has stacked a fraction too early? Pop divine gaurdian for the raid and divine protection for urself. You got stuck in twilight realm? Bubble out. Your raid is gonba wipe if no1 interupts that shadow nova after the furoius roar? Bubble and arcane torrent( if ur belf). Water guy in acendent council is casting hydro lance and its not being interuppted? Avengers shield or arcane torrent that mutha trucker, hey you just avoided a raid wipe because that hydro lance waa heading for your other tank who was on 30%, gw.



    Thanks for reading

  20. #60
    Interupts: this should never be a tanks job.
    But sometimes it is. And I have no issue with TPS, so lending an interrupt or doing them mostly myself is not a problem for me. Plus it's the most efficient way in my raid composition. There are times when I could literally miss an entire rotation and still have threat (maybe not literally but it's a non--issue). There's no rule that says tanks can't interrupt, or shouldn't. Also, pallies have AS and HoJ for interrupts.

    As stated above if you have a pally interuppting the you got bigger problems.
    Why? Please explain this one. Having melee on interrupt duty inevitable hinders their DPS. It doesn't really effect my threat generation.

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