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  1. #1

    The future of the European Union

    Hello!

    Well, yesterday there were quite a bunch of "How does the world see my country"-threads. This is not such a thread. I don't care, how Asia or America thinks about the EU. I wanna know how you experience the EU from inside. What your concerns and hopes are. Why you think the EU is necessary or maybe not. And foremost: Where should the EU head to.

    Well, here's my opinion and a bit of history/statistics:
    With the end of WWII Europe had no stable political system. Germany and France tried a different approach in securing peace in the war torn continent. The best ever to be tried. Back then many people believed the wars would go on. But they didn't. Why? Simply because we could not afford another wars or a split western Europe. Our economies depended on each other, just like our cultures. And then the Montan Union was founded. The very first step into a united Europe. It evolved and grew when other states joined in for until now there are 27 member states in the EU. Out of the 46 states in Europe. 501 million of about 740 million europeans are in the EU. And still it's growing. It's the world's biggest economy and if considered a state the 3. biggest in terms of population.

    We have 4 capitals, 11 currencies, 23 working languages and over two dozens of different cultures inside. Our borders are open to each other and everyone can settle everywhere inside the EU.

    So what do I think about the EU? Germany invented the car, Greece invented democracy, the UK had some of the most brilliant dramaturgists in the world. But know what? Thats nothing seen aside the EU. 500 million people living in peace and wealth, free to move all around the continent.

    So what do I hope for the EU? I hope there'll be some more democratic reforms to the EU parliament. I hope the EU parliament gains more rights to decide. We need a _real_ foreign ministry instead of Ashton...
    What we need is a deeper understanding for the EU. Many people don't see what the EU brought us because they're so used to it, they think it's self-evident. But it's not! The whole United Europe thing was an evolution ever since. We have to evolve even further and dispel the worries of the population about the loss of their culture. Noone wants to erridicate the countries' culture for this is what makes Europe Europe. But we need to work together. That's the point.

    I see an EU covering all of Europe in the next decades or centuries. Maybe even Russia will get on board. Only time will tell. But I sure hope it will be like that. I don't want an "European Superstate". Such states tend to become arrogant and misguided. But I want a united Europe to a degree where the people don't say "I'm german" or "I'm a britton" but instead "I'm european".

    Well, what are your hopes, sorrows about Europe? What do you think of the development we're taking?

  2. #2
    Mechagnome
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    Yes that would be nice,but I dont see it happening anytime soon.There are to many nationalists and people who look down on others,because they are not from the same country.Trust me I know im a minority in my country,and I know how others look at us and how other country's look at us also.

  3. #3
    I am Murloc! ita's Avatar
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    I'm hoping the EU would become more like a single country too with countries being like states in the USA. It's getting there though. Also, the EU borders should be tighter and immigrants less accepted. Wouldn't like whats going on in France or Sweden in my country:P

    But eventually the bigger problems would be too many different languages. The US only has english and mexican and some french minorities but EU has over 20. If you're from Sweden for example, it's not that easy to just go pick up and look for a job in Germany for example, you'd first have to lear the language and then..
    Remember remember the fifth of November
    Gunpowder, treason and plot.
    I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
    Should ever be forgot...

  4. #4
    But we have is an european superstate where every country bows down to its demand (except Germany and maybe France).

    Its very hard to give up our national rights for the sake of some central government, which in its essence, is corrupt and abids but the interests of a special few.

    That and the euro will fall.

    Edit: Im offedend that you didnt include Portugal and Spain in that list of countries. The Iberia Peninsula was responsible for great discovery and for the greatest impulse in world maritime trade.

  5. #5
    I didn't mean to offend anyone. They were just examples. And I just stated them to show they're nothing compared to the achievement the EU stands for.

    I don't think the EU is corrupt. It has it's problems like every government has. Just take an insight in the parliament. The factions there are not solid. They change all the time. Socialists and Conservatives work together as long as they follow the same aims. Then again the Conservatives join in with the Environmentalists or even the Commies. That's what I love about our parliament.

    Not the faction rules the debate. The debate itself is what makes factions.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Niridia View Post
    I didn't mean to offend anyone. They were just examples. And I just stated them to show they're nothing compared to the achievement the EU stands for.

    I don't think the EU is corrupt. It has it's problems like every government has. Just take an insight in the parliament. The factions there are not solid. They change all the time. Socialists and Conservatives work together as long as they follow the same aims. Then again the Conservatives join in with the Environmentalists or even the Commies. That's what I love about our parliament.

    Not the faction rules the debate. The debate itself is what makes factions.
    Wasnt really offended. Was just a way of putting it :P

  7. #7
    I seriously hope EU would fall to bits.

    There's a few positive things about EU; and an overwheling amount of negative.

    + Free(er) trade between member states. No tariffs between countries always increase overall prosperity.
    + Free travel between countries. Could backfire but I see it in a positive light

    - The countless EU laws & Regulations.
    They're mostly created to support special interests - create monopoly.
    - The Cost of the big beaurocratic mess. Thousands upon thousands of people working for the EU, they create nothing - they only destroy jobs.
    - Unelected leaders, centralized government. All the "big guys" in EU have never been elected there, like Rehn, Baroso, Van Rompoy etc.
    - The Euro currency. It's doomed to fail because 1) its fiat 2) the countries of EU are too different
    - The vision and future of EU. It's starting to feel like the new soviet union or some kind of facist equivalent, with its 5 year plans, it's goal to become one country disregarding the wishes of the people.
    - The EU bailouts. Ireland is basicly now a puppet state of EU. It'll never be prosperous again within the EU, unlike Iceland who collapsed in similar fashion and didn't bailout anyone.

    And the funny thing is, we dont need an European Union to achieve the pro's i listed. They're just a distraction to achieve their more destructive agenda.

  8. #8
    The main problem with the EU is nobody likes some nameless person from thousands of miles away who they don't even know about making law changes that affects THEM. For this reason the EU isn't popular in the UK, although most people accept it as necessary. How is some man in Brussels qualified to make a law that could affect Britain, France, Finland in completely different ways? How can the laws they make fit every country perfectly? They can't.

    I think its fine for the EU to encourage economic ties between EU countries, but when it comes to politics it should really be left to the actual governments themselves. The people of Europe are far too diverse to have 1 government making decisions for them.

    One example of EU laws "interfering" is that recently, the UK gov has been told it must allow prisoners to vote in general elections or face hundreds of court cases against it for infringing the prisoners human rights. Whether you believe prisons to be for rehabilitation or for punishment I don't think anybody can really say that prisoners "deserve" the right to vote. It's the general concenssus in this country that if you commit a crime you don't deserve to keep all of your human rights. Yet the EU can enforce a law onto us that the majority of the population doesn't agree with.
    The major criticism is that the EU's lawmaking isn't real democracy. If the UK gov does something that the majority of the people think is wrong, we can vote for the other parties in the election. If the EU does something we don't like, what can we do? We can whine at our EMP's to do more for us, but ultimately what can 1 or 2 out of hundreds of representatives do about it?

    If people were educated more on the EU and what it does then I do think people would see it as useful rather than just accepting that we "have" to be in it. But still, there's no way you would gain any support for giving the EU more political power in the UK, imo. UKIP, the Uk Independance Party is getting increased support, although its still a very small party and isn't really in the same league as the 3 main parties.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Niridia View Post
    I hope there'll be some more democratic reforms to the EU parliament. I hope the EU parliament gains more rights to decide.
    That's not democracy. Every time the EU parliament gets more rights to decide, some rights may be taken away from individual countries. Moreso the EU is "controlled" by the largest countries. The smaller ones do not have as much to say in matters. I didn't vote to be in the EU so I don't want foreign powers deciding what goes in my country. Foreign powers which CAN decide what goes in their own countries because like I mentioned they more or less control the EU. These big countries do not have to make as many sacrifices or compromises for the most part unlike the smaller countries because what's decided in the EU already is in agreement with their policy to begin with.

    I'm no die hard nationalist but even I have limits. I have nothing against being just an united europe (in spirit, in trade etc.) but that's not what the EU is like. It's just special interests for the big and wealthy countries.
    Last edited by zorkuus; 2011-02-02 at 03:30 PM.

  10. #10
    - The countless EU laws & Regulations. They're mostly created to support special interests - create monopoly.
    - The Cost of the big beaurocratic mess. Thousands upon thousands of people working for the EU, they create nothing - they only destroy jobs.
    - Unelected leaders, centralized government. All the "big guys" in EU have never been elected there, like Rehn, Baroso, Van Rompoy etc.
    - The Euro currency. It's doomed to fail because 1) its fiat 2) the countries of EU are too different
    - The vision and future of EU. It's starting to feel like the new soviet union or some kind of facist equivalent, with its 5 year plans, it's goal to become one country disregarding the wishes of the people.
    - The EU bailouts. Ireland is basicly now a puppet state of EU. It'll never be prosperous again within the EU, unlike Iceland who collapsed in similar fashion and didn't bailout anyone.
    Well, that's quite a list. Let's start from on top, shall we?

    Laws & Regulations. Thats prejudice. Yeah, there are many laws and regulations. Many of them may be worthless shit. But a good amount of them enrichened our lives. Cell Phone costs have been cut through that. We have unified standards in education so a pupil from Italy could actually study in Germany and so on. The problem is...the local governments take those achievements for themselves. While they spoil the EU for everything unpopular.
    The Cost: Every government has it's cost. Do you know how much money the USA spends for elections? Compared to this, the EU is a discount store. And how would they destroy jobs with that? All that infrastructure, the financial departments etc. etc. create jobs. Not the other way round...

    Elections: Yep, I completely agree with you here. But that's what I stated in my 1. post. I want it to become more democratic. We should be able to elect them directly.
    Euro: It ain't fiat money. It's a strong currency actually. People saying "everything got more expensive with the euro!" compare the prices back in 2000 with the prices today. And forget to include the inflation. I remember cigarettes would cost 5 DM in 1992. In 1999 it was like 7 DM. That's a perfectly normal process. No, the Euro will not fall. It can't tbh...

    Bailouts: So you think it's a _bad_ thing if bigger countries like Germany or France help out Ireland or Greece? That's some weird logic. Ireland is not a puppet state. Never will be. They still have their votes, don't they? Stop talking BS.

    And the wishes of the people? Well, I know much more europhorics than eurosceptics. It's like 10:3. So, don't take your "opinion" for everyone else.

    That's not democracy. Every time the EU parliament gets more rights to decide, some rights may be taken away from individual countries. Moreso the EU is "controlled" by the largest countries. The smaller ones do not have as much to say in matters. I didn't vote to be in the EU so I don't want foreign powers deciding what goes in my country. Foreign powers which CAN decide what goes in their own countries because like I mentioned they more or less control the EU. These big countries do not have to make as many sacrifices or compromises for the most part unlike the smaller countries because what's decided in the EU already is in agreement with their policy to begin with.

    I'm no die hard nationalist but even I have limits. I have nothing against being an just an united europe but that's not what the EU is like. It's just special interests for the big and wealthy countries.
    I don't think you actually understand how the EU or even the parliament works. The factions in the parliament are not bound to the countries. It's not like Germany has xxx seats, France has xx seats etc. And actually...Germany is the biggest payer for the EU. Alongside with France.

    And of course smaller countries have less to say in a bigger whole. This represents the population, you know...but Germany or France alone can't decide anything.
    Last edited by Niridia; 2011-02-02 at 03:36 PM.

  11. #11
    Wow... OK. That's a lot of perceived negatives, with very few of the true positives. For instance you put the EU Bailouts as a negative thing when in actuality it's one of the greatest pros going for the Union. Ireland faced economic collapse but because of it's membership in the Union it has been financially supported thereby preventing their recession turn into a depression. Ireland is in fact one of the best examples of the beneftits of EU membership having received large amounts if grants to improve infrastructure. And calling it a puppet state is being facetious. Ireland, as shown in the Nice Treaty, has arguably the greatest autonomy in the EU. It retained it's right to referenda and thus the right if it's people to vote on matters of state.
    The Euro is flat, yes. But economically this is good. If Ireland or Greece were not eurozone countries the resulting currency fluctuations following on from their recessions would have exasperated their problems. A united currency has helped in the overall stabilization of the Union members economically.
    There is very little downside to the Union, and posting heresay or conjecture such as "corrupt officials" adds little. We have seen greater commmunication and co-operation, and the free travel of immigrants has helped rectify population issues experienced by countries such as Ireland and Germany (aging populations). I wouldn't call myself a europhile but conversations like these remind me of The Life of Brian, "what have the Romans ever done for us?". People's opinions will always be coloured and people will always choose to ignore the positive so that they can revel in a glass half-empty mentality.
    Europe is stronger for the EU. It gas grown, developed and proven that cultures and nationalties can put the past behind them and move forward together.

  12. #12
    The bailout was only given to Ireland under certain conditions. That means that the bigger countries are effectively telling Ireland its economic policy. Doesn't sound like democracy to me.

  13. #13
    living in the middle of europe, i'm glad switzerland is not part of the EU.
    just because i think we're fine the way it is.
    il ike the eu and the euro though, i just have to drive 30minute to cross the border and everything costs only half as much. I even order anything possible from germany or the uk.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ita View Post
    I'm hoping the EU would become more like a single country too with countries being like states in the USA. It's getting there though. Also, the EU borders should be tighter and immigrants less accepted. Wouldn't like whats going on in France or Sweden in my country:P

    But eventually the bigger problems would be too many different languages. The US only has english and mexican and some french minorities but EU has over 20. If you're from Sweden for example, it's not that easy to just go pick up and look for a job in Germany for example, you'd first have to lear the language and then..
    the US has everything everywhere, i'm in a small SE USA city where there is a strong mexican, korean and indian population, the US just has it on a larger scale

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Niridia View Post
    And of course smaller countries have less to say in a bigger whole. This represents the population, you know...but Germany or France alone can't decide anything.
    I don't think you quite understood what I was saying. In a individual country I can choose to vote in a new government if I don't like the way things are going. Within the EU I cannot vote to make the bigger countries reduce their population so that they won't have as much to say in matters. It's like I'm stuck with the one and same government forever. This government might change some of its policies over the years but it's still the same body of government.
    Last edited by zorkuus; 2011-02-02 at 03:54 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Papir View Post
    Yes that would be nice,but I dont see it happening anytime soon.There are to many nationalists and people who look down on others,because they are not from the same country.Trust me I know im a minority in my country,and I know how others look at us and how other country's look at us also.
    There's nothing wrong with being a nationalist.

    The best thing to do is just tear the EU down and go back to separate, independent countries. It was a completely stupid idea to create the EU and it's doing nothing but bad for the countries sucked up into it. Super-continents, political blocks, etc etc are stupid. We don't need "unions". Look at what happened to Ireland. The EU is a scam.

    People are British, or German, or French. Dutch. This globalist ideal of "We're all one people, one voice" blah blah blah doesn't work and will never work. It is a liberal wetdream; a fantasy to go with the "Utopia". People need to realize that it's a scam to strip you of your culture, your country's identity and rights and to eventually create a one world government. And if you think the EU and "We're all European" is working, then take a close look at Europe. Immigration and multiculturalism is killing it. GG.


    Oh, and by the way? As the EU begins to collapse in on itself, countries being forced to help "clean up" (AKA be robbed also) the mess are going to bail on it. Like Germany. And if said country is brought to its knees because of the EU, hatred for the other European countries is only going to grow and Nationalism will gain more support than it has now. Ever hear the saying, "History repeats itself"?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by TTerminator999 View Post
    There's nothing wrong with being a nationalist.

    The best thing to do is just tear the EU down and go back to separate, independent countries. It was a completely stupid idea to create the EU and it's doing nothing but bad for the countries sucked up into it. Super-continents, political blocks, etc etc are stupid. We don't need "unions". Look at what happened to Ireland. The EU is a scam.

    People are British, or German, or French. Dutch. This globalist ideal of "We're all one people, one voice" blah blah blah doesn't work and will never work. It is a liberal wetdream; a fantasy to go with the "Utopia". People need to realize that it's a scam to strip you of your culture, your country's identity and rights and to eventually create a one world government. And if you think the EU and "We're all European" is working, then take a close look at Europe. Immigration and multiculturalism is killing it. GG.


    Oh, and by the way? As the EU begins to collapse in on itself, countries being forced to help "clean up" (AKA be robbed also) the mess are going to bail on it. Like Germany. And if said country is brought to its knees because of the EU, hatred for the other European countries is only going to grow and Nationalism will gain more support than it has now. Ever hear the saying, "History repeats itself"?
    What happened to Ireland? The EU built it up. All of the wealth there is acquired due to the fact the EU pumped hundreds of millions of Euros into that state. And the _national_ banks of Ireland ruined it.

    Small independent countries will have no voice in the world. If China and the USA debate about invading Europe...what will the Netherlands have to say? No please?
    It's not a globalist idea. It's THE european idea.

    Immigration is important to Germany. Without immigration we would face a serious problem because of our overaged country. Multiculturalism kills what? The nationalist idiots who claim the soil they walk their godgiven land are the fucktards who actually "kill". Also Europe isn't that multicultural at all. Sure, Italy's culture is unlike the british culture. But know what? The culture behind all of that is the same. Christian crap. We have a common base. What divides us is mostly the language. Nothing else.

    And for the "History repeats itself"-thing...well, tell me a particular timespan something like the EU happened. Please, go on.
    Last edited by Niridia; 2011-02-02 at 04:15 PM.

  18. #18
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTerminator999 View Post
    There's nothing wrong with being a nationalist.

    The best thing to do is just tear the EU down and go back to separate, independent countries. It was a completely stupid idea to create the EU and it's doing nothing but bad for the countries sucked up into it. Super-continents, political blocks, etc etc are stupid. We don't need "unions". Look at what happened to Ireland. The EU is a scam.

    People are British, or German, or French. Dutch. This globalist ideal of "We're all one people, one voice" blah blah blah doesn't work and will never work. It is a liberal wetdream; a fantasy to go with the "Utopia". People need to realize that it's a scam to strip you of your culture, your country's identity and rights and to eventually create a one world government. And if you think the EU and "We're all European" is working, then take a close look at Europe. Immigration and multiculturalism is killing it. GG.


    Oh, and by the way? As the EU begins to collapse in on itself, countries being forced to help "clean up" (AKA be robbed also) the mess are going to bail on it. Like Germany. And if said country is brought to its knees because of the EU, hatred for the other European countries is only going to grow and Nationalism will gain more support than it has now. Ever hear the saying, "History repeats itself"?
    Conspiracy much?
    No seriously, why are central European countries trying to get their standards up to the point where they become eligible to join the EU? Because the EU is a corrupt system that has the main intention of eradicating a country's culture and identity right? Wrong.
    The EU is far from perfect, but really now, you are just being paranoid. One of the main reasons the EU was formed was to ensure that Europe as a whole becomes a solid power in the world, instead of just a loose conglomerate of small countries that all have their own little small scale plans (which, in the big picture, hardly affect the world as much as bigger forces do). The Euro is just one example of that. Having your own currency become big means you become a bigger player too, which is what the Euro is doing right now.

    on a critical note though, I agree that the laws that are being cooked up by the most influential members do not always benefit smaller member states, and can in fact be to their detriment. This is why I am a strong advocate for a system similar to the USA, where every state has their own way of doing things, while still bound into one power by a national government.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ita View Post
    But eventually the bigger problems would be too many different languages. The US only has english and mexican and some french minorities but EU has over 20. If you're from Sweden for example, it's not that easy to just go pick up and look for a job in Germany for example, you'd first have to lear the language and then..
    yes and no, everyone in the EU (ok maybe except france, these guys are stubborn concerning not speaking french^^) can speak english, so its not hard.
    especially in MMOs that have just 1 kind of servers (EU) you see it quite often that for example swedish children etc are playing and having no problem to talk to you in english

  20. #20
    Hello,

    First i'm french so excuse me for my poor English.

    I think that the EU is indispensable in a world of globalization.
    In fact i can't imagine small countries like France , Germany or UK beeing able to compete china alone.

    In addition i think that EU is a chance view to the bloody wars which torn europe throught history.

    There's nothing wrong with being a nationalist.
    In france to be a nationalist is similar to be racist and racism is forbidden by the law ( you risk 1 month in prison )

    I hope the EU parliament gains more rights to decide.
    I'm totally agree with that but the EU parliament is already more powerful than countries parliaments.
    However i think we need an uncontested leader.

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