Does tanking need hit/expertise cap?

[Kagonos]

I was tanking ODS a day ago. I was on Arcanotron. I have +1.57% to hit. I missed exactly never on my unassisted interrupts. I recall reading that skull bash is not appearing on recount like it normally should be under interrupters, and I can attest to this. There are some encounters where a missed interrupt can be the difference between wiping and success, but this isn't a thread about "What bosses do I need to guarantee and interrupt, and should I, as a tank, concern myself with hit cap so I can interrupt?"

It seems like people are posting here without reading this entire discussion or even one of the several threads that exist on this very issue. elossa, threat is not an issue outside of the first few seconds of a fight. If it is, you are doing something wrong or your DPS dont understand threat management.

[mlc]

10M Water twilight ascendant (don't remember the name) pretty much requires the tank to have reliable interrupts even if the ranged are on it, for example sometimes the ranged need to switch and burn the fire shield or the ranged don't have a short cd on their interrupts.
But for raid tanking, as many have said before, hit/exp cap is not needed.

[soulinger]

yes you need hit to almost cap if not full cap and same for expertise, it helps enemies dodge and parry less, better threat - aggro

[Arielle]

yes you need hit to almost cap if not full cap and same for expertise, it helps enemies dodge and parry less, better threat - aggro

Does it improve threat? Yes. Does it actually matter after the first 10-20 seconds of an encounter? No.

[Kagonos]

Correct, i'm in a 10 man guild where the only melee (bar myself and my prot co-tank) we have is a Ret paladin



Yeah, probably is, but i'd rather raid and down 6-7 bosses with friends then dump them for a random i don't like to play with. I'd like to see how you'd manage to squeeze consistent reliable interrupts out of my guild:
2 locks
1 mage
1 boomkin
2 surv hunters

If you have genuine viable suggestions then im willing to take your advice, but i think until then, i'll stick with trying to get capped for some fights where my ret isn't available

So, you're saying you have no ranged who can interrupt? Go ahead and ignore the advice offered in this thread and elsewhere. Your personal situation does not mean that we should answer the question "Does tanking need hit/expertise cap?" with a yes. You don't need it. You don't need it. You don't need it.... Can it be situationally helpful? Yeah of course it can. Without knowing your locks spec it would be soooo easy to setup an interrupt rotation based on the fight you are doing. If you'd rather take it upon yourself and gimp your overall survivability by capping hit rather than coordinate an interrupt rotation, fine.

Here's a genuine suggestion:
Encounter is Halfus. You have the storm rider which means you're going to need (see: WANT) to interrupt the shadow nova. You say, "Mr ret pally, your interrupt is a 10 second CD, make sure you interrupt every shadow nova cast, please. Mr. mage, your counterspell is on a 24 second CD, please make sure you're hitting it starting with the second cast. Mr warlock #1, could you summon your fel hunter and leave him on halfus. You'll be getting the 3rd cast of shadow nova using your pet's 24 second CD Spell lock." How hard is that?

On top of it, you can be tossing out your Skull Bash everytime you have it up (at LEAST every other cast) and even uncapped, you're pretty unlikely to miss it and I didn't even bother to have the 2nd warlock use his fel hunter. The boomkin also has a long duration CD interrupt called solar beam, as I'm sure you're aware. So reliable interrupting comes down to how shitty or good your raiders are. Melee is NOT the only reliable source of interrupts. A focus macro for halfus for your ranged interrupters works WONDERS. Who's your other tank? A warrior? Shield bash. Paladin? Avenging shield (and with the patch he'll have rebuke a well.) Sorry, but there are better ways to work out interrupts than suggesting your bear tank waste his gems/reforging into hit. Or expertise which doesn't even help with interrupts.

---------- Post added 2011-02-03 at 06:49 PM ----------

yes you need hit to almost cap if not full cap and same for expertise, it helps enemies dodge and parry less, better threat - aggro

just go away now, please. or read what has been posted here and cite specifics, because this has pretty much been proven untrue. and stupid to do.

[Arielle]

Reforging to hit is pointless. Having trinkets / consumables that get you hit capped for those situations where it's necesarry is not.

[edanna]

Sorry If I came off rude its just frustrating to see some many of these threads and people still thinking there right. Right way. 1.Gems All stamina 2 Dodge OR Mastery/Stamina gems for Meta 2. Reforge Dodge>Mastery>Crit>Haste>Hit>Expertise 3. Stamina Flask! 4. Dont gem agi gems 5.If you doing HM even more of a reason NOT to gem agi 6.Stamina trinkets are good 7. Reason why expertise/hit not good? Hit is not good because after first mangle/maul you shouldnt lose threat and expertise is bad since no boss can parry haste you anymore.

PS like I said sorry If I came off rude just people dont read around look up top player and shit theroycraft....

[Arielle]

Sorry If I came off rude its just frustrating to see some many of these threads and people still thinking there right. Right way. 1.Gems All stamina 2 Dodge OR Mastery/Stamina gems for Meta 2. Reforge Dodge>Mastery>Crit>Haste>Hit>Expertise 3. Stamina Flask! 4. Dont gem agi gems 5.If you doing HM even more of a reason NOT to gem agi 6.Stamina trinkets are good 7. Reason why expertise/hit not good? Hit is not good because after first mangle/maul you shouldnt lose threat and expertise is bad since no boss can parry haste you anymore.

PS like I said sorry If I came off rude just people dont read around look up top player and shit theroycraft....

Wow. So much interesting incorrect information here.

1) Personal choice, but since Stamina provides such horrible mitigation it's not really necesarry as HP thresholds can be met without gemming for it.
2) Wtf? Try Dodge > Mastery > Crit/Exp (depending on gear) > Hit > Haste. Wow your order was wrong.
3) If you need the health, sure. If not Agility is better mitigation.
4) Why?
5) See Reesi.
6) Yes they are.
7) See: 2 roll combat system why you're wrong.

[edanna]

Wow. So much interesting incorrect information here.

1) Personal choice, but since Stamina provides such horrible mitigation it's not really necesarry as HP thresholds can be met without gemming for it.
2) Wtf? Try Dodge > Mastery > Crit/Exp (depending on gear) > Hit > Haste. Wow your order was wrong.
3) If you need the health, sure. If not Agility is better mitigation.
4) Why?
5) See Reesi.
6) Yes they are.
7) See: 2 roll combat system why you're wrong.

\

1. Why Stamina Is best stat? Because IT DOES PROVIDE MITIGATION but guess people dont understand. Stamina=More Vegance=More Threat=Higher Savage Defence procs
2. Why would you rate Exp with crit NO BOSS PARRY HASTES omg do people not under stand that
3. HP is more Megitigation than Agi check Ensidia website or Sejta from Paragon he will tell you the same thing
4.Read 1/3
5. After speaking with top 3 Bear tanks in the world and ALL of them aggre sorry your arguement in invalid
6. Nothing
7. Dont understand

Dodge>Mastery>Crit>Last 3 debatible but I say Haste>Hit>Expertise

[Kagonos]

Sorry If I came off rude its just frustrating to see some many of these threads and people still thinking there right. Right way. 1.Gems All stamina 2 Dodge OR Mastery/Stamina gems for Meta 2. Reforge Dodge>Mastery>Crit>Haste>Hit>Expertise 3. Stamina Flask! 4. Dont gem agi gems 5.If you doing HM even more of a reason NOT to gem agi 6.Stamina trinkets are good 7. Reason why expertise/hit not good? Hit is not good because after first mangle/maul you shouldnt lose threat and expertise is bad since no boss can parry haste you anymore.

PS like I said sorry If I came off rude just people dont read around look up top player and shit theroycraft....

You aren't coming off rude. You're coming off arrogant, though thinking that it is YOU who are right about everything. If you search around, you will find that it is not a matter of being right and wrong. And to suggest that we should all just act like we're doing heroic and should gem/enchant/reforge accordingly is foolish. Besides, this is a thread about hit/expertise caps. If you want to take up the STAM>AGI and EVERYTHING ELSE argument, take it to a different thread or create yet another thread about why stam stacking for hard modes is the way to do it because so ans so bear from such and such guild who is killing all heroic content currently does it, then by all means, do so.

---------- Post added 2011-02-03 at 07:42 PM ----------

\

1. Why Stamina Is best stat? Because IT DOES PROVIDE MITIGATION but guess people dont understand. Stamina=More Vegance=More Threat=Higher Savage Defence procs
2. Why would you rate Exp with crit NO BOSS PARRY HASTES omg do people not under stand that
3. HP is more Megitigation than Agi check Ensidia website or Sejta from Paragon he will tell you the same thing
4.Read 1/3
5. After speaking with top 3 Bear tanks in the world and ALL of them aggre sorry your arguement in invalid
6. Nothing
7. Dont understand

Katarn, I don't think logic applies with this particular fellow. It's pretty clear HE has all the theorycrafting data to support the claim that stam=mitigation because vengeance=more threat and that no parry haste on bosses is why expertise is not good...

I'm pretty sure Sejta would never say that HP>AGI for mitigation. And you claim the people don't understand, so why not enlighten us. What information do you have that can support this? In what world does more threat=more savage defense procs? This very statement PROVES that it is YOU who doesn't understand. AGI=CRIT. CRIT is what procs savage defense. Whether or not you have ANY threat is completely irrelevant to whether you will proc a savage defense shield. You only support the AGI>STAM argument.

[edanna]

LOL go to Paragon site Sejta clearly Stats that Stamina=Highest Prioty stat due to Stamina=More Vegance(If you know how vegance works) More vegance=more threat Ovp and since vegance give more AP that equals Higher Savage Defence procs. But Ok Ill stop posting because people dont understand. Look up Paragon/Manaflask(ensidia/FTH Site) and they will tell you the same thing I do ok

[Bearshield]

it is tru that threat is not a problem at this point. but we do seem to get a nerf there next patch so maybe we do need hit / exp after that (or haste as it will buff lacarate)

This is what I'm wondering about as well. Right now it's not an issue, but when our dmg is lower won't ensuring we hit as often as possible be more important? With the nerfs to bleeds and buff to Shred, I'd think kitties will be rethinking their view on hit after the patch as well.

[edanna]

Yea when they do the canges haste will def move up and depending on our threat which I dont see how it will change unless they change vegance hit rlly wont ever matter atm unless dps start to reallly outgear the tank imo

[Arielle]

LOL go to Paragon site Sejta clearly Stats that Stamina=Highest Prioty stat due to Stamina=More Vegance(If you know how vegance works) More vegance=more threat Ovp and since vegance give more AP that equals Higher Savage Defence procs. But Ok Ill stop posting because people dont understand. Look up Paragon/Manaflask(ensidia/FTH Site) and they will tell you the same thing I do ok

You do understand that Vengance only gives 1AP per point of Stamina, and only when you're capping right? Agility provides more AP right out of the gate, without even requiring that you are Vengeance capping to get it. That's before the added Crit (increased SD frequency) and Dodge (increased SD uptime).

Expertise is a great stat due to the 2-roll combat system. If you are going to ignorantly claim otherwise without making an attempt to understand what it means (as evidenced later on in your post), at least add that you have no idea what you're talking about. However despite the fact that Expertise is a great stat, you should not be sacrificing anything to get it.

The last time I read Aryu's post on Manaflask (which admittedly, was a month or so ago), I found no fewer than 4 errors after only 2 minutes. I stopped reading after that.

Sejta stacks Stamina for 2 main reasons:

1) Being undergeared for the content he was doing at the time. HP thresholds can be met with trinkets, consumables and native Stamina on gear. This has been repeatedly evidenced and proven through practice.
2) Having absolutely 0 knowledge about what the encounter they are about to do actually does. I you have no idea what is going to happen you want a big of a HP buffer on your tank as humanly possible.

A couple of contributory reasons are:

1) Incredible healers. If you are in an environment where your healers have limitless mana (see most of Wrath) then Stamina is always better. Their healers are so incredibly skilled that they can manage their mana to the point where it is nearly limitless for the duration of the enrage timer.
2) Incredible DPS. If your DPS take practically 0 avoidable raid damage that gives more mana that can be expended on the tank(s). Further, the faster the boss dies the smaller the time window required to have limitless mana, thus increasing Stamina's value.

99.9% of the WoW population does not exist in such an environment. Thus, for them, Mitigation is better.

Evaluating something in a vacuum and then saying it applies to all situations everywhere is horrible science.

[Annomander]

Hit and expertise ISN'T important.

Boss encounters where interrupts matter, even as a tank you have 100% chance to interrupt. Out of several halfus and arcanotron encounters, i have missed, dodged or been parried exactly 0 times. That's with 0.91% bonus hit and 9 expertise. RNG would dictate that at least 1/5 interrupts would fail, but stats are unimportant as interrupts for halfus never miss.

[Arielle]

This is what I'm wondering about as well. Right now it's not an issue, but when our dmg is lower won't ensuring we hit as often as possible be more important? With the nerfs to bleeds and buff to Shred, I'd think kitties will be rethinking their view on hit after the patch as well.

Our threat is not going down enough for Hit or Haste to matter at all. Moreover Haste will continue to be useless until it contributes to mitigation in some meaningful fashion.

Kitties will not want Hit any more than they do now, thanks to the energy refund on their special attacks.

[Barawr]

I have read over several of their guides pushing all out stamina and they honestly seem outdated. Now that we have learned the REAL way Vengeance works stamina isn't the hottest stat around for SD shields.

[Shakari]

Then you aren't gearing properly. You should be looking for CRIT/MASTERY pieces, reforging crit into dodge. Once you start to replace those pieces (it may just be that you are wearing the best you have) You'll find far less hit on your gear. To the OP: There's REALLY no need to start a NEW thread on this topic that has been covered, as you pointed out, on several other threads. Ask your question (which has probably already been answered) on one of the existing threads. FFS, we've already told you what we thought.

Crit/Mastery pieces ... yeah right now please start making sense. would be a nice waste of dps plate and when there's dps in the raid needing it, you'd be very selfish to even consider it lol. and you'd be better actually getting tanking gear and reforging to mastery lol

[Arielle]

Crit/Mastery pieces ... yeah right now please start making sense. would be a nice waste of dps plate and when there's dps in the raid needing it, you'd be very selfish to even consider it lol. and you'd be better actually getting tanking gear and reforging to mastery lol

Because Plate tanks gear the same as Bears.

/boggle

[Kagonos]

and i hate to belabor the point, but since you're so adamant about it, Vengeance only grants you AP up to a MAXIMUM of 10% of your health. Fully raid buffed, stamina has a value of 17.99721 HP per point of stamina. 10% of that is 1.799721 AP through vengeance (FULLY stacked, mind you.) Agility grants 2.8875 AP fully raid buffed per point and is not dependent upon any other mechanics to increase this. In addition, agility also grants 0.0032323% to crit and 0.0043106% dodge. While those dodge and crit numbers are miniscule, they are extra.

So, let's just ignore those 2 smaller numbers, even though they are relevant, and focus only on the AP we gain. We have 60 stam and 40 agi gems. 60 stam gem=107.9833 extra AP per gem and 40 agi gem will grant us 115.50 AP. 115.50>107.9833, right? And more AP=bigger Savage Defense shields right? Explain to me, with your own math, please, how stamina will grant you more mitigation. And if you say "Because Sejta of Paragon does it and says to do it cuz he's always right," then you should stop presenting ideas as your own and just start linking everything Sejta says instead.

By the way, if I got any of this math wrong, I know I'm not perfect, so any corrections or confirmations would be nice and appreciated.