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  1. #61
    Top Priests barely beat top Paladins on Magmaw. This isn't a complex problem. The OP was lead to believe that Priests should do much better than Paladins on Magmaw. That isn't simply isn't the case in normal mode and certainly isn't the case in 10N, where Paladins actually do better than Priests on average.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Chitzu View Post
    Remove 1 point out of Rapid Renewal, 1 out of Test of Faith and 1 out of Mental Agility, put those 3 points into Darkness instead for 3% Haste.
    I really wouldn't listen to this at all, rapid renewal, point for point, is more haste than darkness even if you cast renew only once every *50 seconds* (and renew isn't so bad in AOE chakra and inner will, glyphed and talented)

    Test of faith, for one point, is 4% throughput on anyone under 50% health - a lot of people should be under 50% health. In fact, if one in four people are under 50% health, it becomes more throughput per point than darkness, while also being more efficiency per point.

    Mental agility is the only talent that some argument could be made for, since it's a matter of throughput vs efficiency. Personally I prefer the efficiency but I have no way of explaining that I can be bothered typing out here.

  3. #63
    Drop 2 points from surge of light or state of mind and pick up Darkness. From there the question becomes 1 point in mental agility or 1 point in darkness. And as others have mentioned, work on your Chakra uptime. Don't underestimate the value of Darkness; 3 points is worth ~384 haste rating, or ~384 secondary stat rating.

    As for healing strategy. I like renew for Magmaw, I cast it on targets hit by the spit which gives them a good buffer before the incoming raid wide AOE. Depending on your strat, you might need to get out of the habit of casting PoM on the tank for this fight, as the tank may be too far away from anyone else for the PoM to jump. Chuck your lightwell down in the kitepath for the adds so everyone has a powerful heal while moving. Hope that helps...
    Last edited by Sokaris84; 2011-02-03 at 04:34 AM.

  4. #64
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    I most recently got rid of my main which were a holy pala and the only class i could/ or would be outhealed by was another holypala

    Imo hpala is atm the best at healing, if you don't have one in your raid you are more likely to fail...

  5. #65
    I am Murloc! Azutael's Avatar
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    Kinda offtopic question, but what spec do you recomend for a fresh 80 to start healing as in normal dungeons while leveling towards 85.
    For priest that is.

    And damn those holy paladins, hope the patch that's comming manages to nerf them a bit
    Or atleast, the other healers buffed somewhat.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerN View Post
    Kinda offtopic question, but what spec do you recomend for a fresh 80 to start healing as in normal dungeons while leveling towards 85.
    For priest that is.
    Disc!
    Or holy.
    Try both, use whichever you prefer. They both work just fine in dungeons.

    And damn those holy paladins, hope the patch that's comming manages to nerf them a bit
    Or atleast, the other healers buffed somewhat.
    They're not that bad. I beat our holy pala last magmaw (as disc!), but then I always stand with the melee and turret.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Nereth View Post
    I really wouldn't listen to this at all, rapid renewal, point for point, is more haste than darkness even if you cast renew only once every *50 seconds* (and renew isn't so bad in AOE chakra and inner will, glyphed and talented)

    Test of faith, for one point, is 4% throughput on anyone under 50% health - a lot of people should be under 50% health. In fact, if one in four people are under 50% health, it becomes more throughput per point than darkness, while also being more efficiency per point.

    Mental agility is the only talent that some argument could be made for, since it's a matter of throughput vs efficiency. Personally I prefer the efficiency but I have no way of explaining that I can be bothered typing out here.
    Rapid renewal, are you serious? You're not supposed to heal like in WOTLk where you renew alot of people, it's not used half as much as PoH is and other heals, Darkness affects every heal you got, Rapid Renewal does not.

    there's barely any fights where people will sit below 50% HP, those fights would be Council, Nefarian, Chimerion... and yeh, that's about it really.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Chitzu View Post
    Rapid renewal, are you serious? You're not supposed to heal like in WOTLk where you renew alot of people, it's not used half as much as PoH is and other heals, Darkness affects every heal you got, Rapid Renewal does not.

    there's barely any fights where people will sit below 50% HP, those fights would be Council, Nefarian, Chimerion... and yeh, that's about it really.
    You save 0.5 seconds for each renew you cast (assuming no haste, it doesn't scale well with haste but then I for one prefer spirit and mastery to haste). If you cast renew once every 50.5 seconds then the fact that you fit your 50.5 second 'rotation' into 50 seconds instead due to the 1 second renew in it, is equivalent to 1% haste.

    Really, obviously we don't spam renew, but there are a lot of movement intensive sections where you can't POH, so you throw a few on the 'critically injured', or a lot of sections where one person got blown up, relatively speaking, far more than the rest of his group.

    My renew, in AOE chakra with inner will, which is pretty standard for AOE healing raids, is very similar in efficiency to greater heal (at 15.44 mastery), but more HPS (even without the rapid renewal talent). In fact if I have the rapid renwal talent it becomes some 70% more healing per second casting than greater heal.

    And before you say lol wutaboutheal. greater heal is pretty much my bread and butter heal for spot healing raids. I have plenty of mana so I prefer the throughput.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Nereth View Post
    You save 0.5 seconds for each renew you cast (assuming no haste, it doesn't scale well with haste but then I for one prefer spirit and mastery to haste). If you cast renew once every 50.5 seconds then the fact that you fit your 50.5 second 'rotation' into 50 seconds instead due to the 1 second renew in it, is equivalent to 1% haste.

    Really, obviously we don't spam renew, but there are a lot of movement intensive sections where you can't POH, so you throw a few on the 'critically injured', or a lot of sections where one person got blown up, relatively speaking, far more than the rest of his group.

    My renew, in AOE chakra with inner will, which is pretty standard for AOE healing raids, is very similar in efficiency to greater heal (at 15.44 mastery), but more HPS (even without the rapid renewal talent). In fact if I have the rapid renwal talent it becomes some 70% more healing per second casting than greater heal.

    And before you say lol wutaboutheal. greater heal is pretty much my bread and butter heal for spot healing raids. I have plenty of mana so I prefer the throughput.
    Yes, while it saves you 0.5 sec GCD when casting renew it doesn't benefit any of your other spells in throughput, congratulations you'll cast a spell 0.5 sec earlier then if you didn't have it, but lets come down to fact. on AOE heavy fights you're not going to throw out a renew while you're AOE healing, guess what, you've lost throughput on every single spell there is compared if you would've had 3% haste from Darkness, if you're throwing our renews during an AOE heavy phase, then you're doing it wrong. Renew is meant to be used pre-aoe heavy phase incase you can't handle the healing, other then that it's mostly on the tanks when you're in heal chakra, this is where Chakra dancing comes into play.

    @ the last bit where you mention greater heal, not once in my post i've said that Greater heal is useless or lolwut use heal instead. If you got time to use Heal, then yes you should do it, if not then Greater heal is the obvious choise for spot healing, i don't think anyone here have disagreed on it, but the fact that people argue rapid renewal giving more throughput then 3% haste makes me cringe, again, you're not going to throw out renews in the middle of a AOE phase, then you're again doing it wrong and you've put more pressure on the other healers.

  10. #70
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    Paladins are ridiculous atm. Good job we have 2! They heal themselves whenever they land a heal on others, they heal their beaconed target as well = lots of heals.
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Chitzu View Post
    Yes, while it saves you 0.5 sec GCD when casting renew it doesn't benefit any of your other spells in throughput, congratulations you'll cast a spell 0.5 sec earlier then if you didn't have it, but lets come down to fact. on AOE heavy fights you're not going to throw out a renew while you're AOE healing, guess what, you've lost throughput on every single spell there is compared if you would've had 3% haste from Darkness, if you're throwing our renews during an AOE heavy phase, then you're doing it wrong. Renew is meant to be used pre-aoe heavy phase incase you can't handle the healing, other then that it's mostly on the tanks when you're in heal chakra, this is where Chakra dancing comes into play.

    @ the last bit where you mention greater heal, not once in my post i've said that Greater heal is useless or lolwut use heal instead. If you got time to use Heal, then yes you should do it, if not then Greater heal is the obvious choise for spot healing, i don't think anyone here have disagreed on it, but the fact that people argue rapid renewal giving more throughput then 3% haste makes me cringe, again, you're not going to throw out renews in the middle of a AOE phase, then you're again doing it wrong and you've put more pressure on the other healers.
    Regarding your second point first, I only bring up greater heal because I was comparing renew to it, and wanted to establish that it was a good spell to compare renew too.

    That out of the way, first of all its 1 point in rapid renewal vs 1 point in darkness, so its .5 seconds off the GCD of renew vs 1% haste.

    Rapid renewal is 50% haste on casting renew (though it doesn't increase its healing done). The only thing I can say is you must appreciate the difference between 50% and 1%. Although renew isn't used much, it is used a bit, especially on the move, and for spot healing if nescessary. This talent can save a lot of time.

  12. #72
    Deleted



    Be real, you won't ever beat a decent holy paladin atm. I'd say you were doing quite fine. (The priest in the SS didn't use Light Well because it wasn't needed and NO ONE EVER CLICKS IT!:O )
    Last edited by mmocc6bc6f6fc2; 2011-02-04 at 05:35 PM.

  13. #73
    LoD + HR in a pack of 8 raid members = Win.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Nereth View Post
    Regarding your second point first, I only bring up greater heal because I was comparing renew to it, and wanted to establish that it was a good spell to compare renew too.

    That out of the way, first of all its 1 point in rapid renewal vs 1 point in darkness, so its .5 seconds off the GCD of renew vs 1% haste.

    Rapid renewal is 50% haste on casting renew (though it doesn't increase its healing done). The only thing I can say is you must appreciate the difference between 50% and 1%. Although renew isn't used much, it is used a bit, especially on the move, and for spot healing if nescessary. This talent can save a lot of time.
    Yes i know what you meant regarding the Renew / Greater Heal, but lets come down to the point.

    0.5 sec reduced GCD whenever you cast Renew, fine. But how often do you really use it? If we should get down to the usage, lets put it this way then.

    If you're on the move and doing as i understand that you do, you cast a Renew, 0.5 sec reduced CD until you can cast the next, now if you do that on 15 people, then yes you've gained throughput compared to having that extra point into darkness for 1% overall throughput. But lets get down to reality, you wont cast 15 renews during the move, there's no fight where you'll move that much or where it's needed to throw out those massive amount of renews.

    Yes, i can agree to doing it on maybe 1 group, as i said: On Nefarian right before P2 i do it on my group, but only the ones i know is slow to jump up or is somewhat low on HP that wont get hit by my PoH when we get up there.

    The rest of the fight where you're not on the move, that 0.5 sec GCD that you saved wont do anything, the 1% from darkness is going to increase your throughput more then Rapid Renewal.

    Lets compare to a fight like Cho'gall for the lolz, you barely move at all here, that point in Rapid renewal will rather hurt your throughput then increase the gain, many of the current fights you stand still most of the time with just minor movement where you wont throw out even 10+ renews during that time, you might get 2 off if you really need to, then you're back at PoH or whatnot again.

    I understand your point tho, theoretical it sounds good and is good, but in the practic it's not working that way.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Chitzu View Post
    Yes i know what you meant regarding the Renew / Greater Heal, but lets come down to the point.

    0.5 sec reduced GCD whenever you cast Renew, fine. But how often do you really use it? If we should get down to the usage, lets put it this way then.

    If you're on the move and doing as i understand that you do, you cast a Renew, 0.5 sec reduced CD until you can cast the next, now if you do that on 15 people, then yes you've gained throughput compared to having that extra point into darkness for 1% overall throughput. But lets get down to reality, you wont cast 15 renews during the move, there's no fight where you'll move that much or where it's needed to throw out those massive amount of renews.

    Yes, i can agree to doing it on maybe 1 group, as i said: On Nefarian right before P2 i do it on my group, but only the ones i know is slow to jump up or is somewhat low on HP that wont get hit by my PoH when we get up there.

    The rest of the fight where you're not on the move, that 0.5 sec GCD that you saved wont do anything, the 1% from darkness is going to increase your throughput more then Rapid Renewal.

    Lets compare to a fight like Cho'gall for the lolz, you barely move at all here, that point in Rapid renewal will rather hurt your throughput then increase the gain, many of the current fights you stand still most of the time with just minor movement where you wont throw out even 10+ renews during that time, you might get 2 off if you really need to, then you're back at PoH or whatnot again.

    I understand your point tho, theoretical it sounds good and is good, but in the practic it's not working that way.
    Think about it though, that 0.5 second saved GCD means your next heal completes 0.5 seconds sooner. That's exactly how haste works as well. Any time you cast a renew into another spell, the .5 seconds is adding throughput. You don't need to blanket renews for this to be nescessary, it could just as easily be something like "POH group 2, tank is bouncing around 50% k throw a renew (very high throughput and fairly efficient way to help the tank healers along), POH group 3, POH group 1, this guy is on 20% and the rest of his group is on 80%, k throw renew on him then POH the group"

    In this example, which I don't think is so unlikely other than the very simple 2 button rotation (although we use POH so much, who can know?), the improved renew talent saves 1 second in a 12 second rotation (ignoring any passive haste here because I cbf calculating it). By contrast, 1% haste would have saved 0.12 seconds.

  16. #76
    Nereth: Except, you don't cast Renew like that. You don't lead it into other spells. You either a) Roll it with Chakra: Serenity, or you b) apply it once because you're not stopping to heal and someone's taking light damage.

    If you stop to heal, you wind up another spell, but you didn't need Renew in the first place.

    This is why spreadsheet math doesn't work for healing models.

    You don't need to blanket renews for this to be nescessary, it could just as easily be something like "POH group 2, tank is bouncing around 50% k throw a renew (very high throughput and fairly efficient way to help the tank healers along), POH group 3, POH group 1, this guy is on 20% and the rest of his group is on 80%, k throw renew on him then POH the group"
    Don't try to solo-heal a 25 man? If raid damage is going out heavy, you stick to your assignments, if it's not, you should be in Serenity and tossing Heal and refreshing Renew to help the tank healers.

    If someone's at 20%, they shouldn't be getting a Renew. That's Flash Heal territory, or multi-person response of Heal (takes 2.3 seconds a person, can be concurrent). That's you waiting 5.4 seconds to get Divine Touch on him, 6.4 seconds to start your Prayer, 7.8 seconds before your first Renew tick, and 8.6 seconds before your Prayer lands.

    8.6 seconds for one Renew tick, Divine Touch, and Prayer to hit the 20%'er. Looks like someone failed at Triage. But it's a good thing you took the time to Renew him off your shorter global!
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2011-02-05 at 06:10 AM.
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  17. #77
    The Lightbringer Ultima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nereth View Post
    Think about it though, that 0.5 second saved GCD means your next heal completes 0.5 seconds sooner. That's exactly how haste works as well.
    Haste has 100% up-time. [Rapid Renewal] does not. In my opinion, points are tight enough as it is in Holy to give this consideration (pre-4.0.6).

    More importantly however is that I feel this thread was put to rest by at least Page 2 and this current discussion is not relevant. Take it to the Holy thread lads.

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