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  1. #1

    Blood Death Knight Mastery is overly dependent on variable factors.

    Simple point really. Blood DK Mastery is the only Mastery of the tanks which isn't passive in effect or practice.

    Warriors - Passive Block.
    Paladins - Passive Block.
    Druids - Procs off auto-attacks as well as all abilities and so is passive in practice.

    Death Knight - Activates only when Death Strike is used.

    Passive Block is passive and unaffected by any ratings aside from Mastery.
    Passive Block is passive and unaffected by any ratings aside from Mastery.
    Crit shield is only reliant on Hit and Expertise values.

    Death Strike is completely reliant on or subject to Hit and Expertise values, disarm effects, resource limitations and GCDs.


    It's a tad ridiculous in comparison to the other Mastery functions when you consider how much the effect of our Mastery has been reduced (from nerfs to any part of the equation) since Cata launched.

    The Imp Death Strike talent needs to also increase the hit chance of Death Strike by 4/8 percent and or make it an unavoidable attack against enemy NPCs. Hit and Expertise should NOT be survival stats for any tanking class (outside of Parry haste fights; which don't seem to exist anyway).

    Spread the word, we can get this done.

  2. #2
    Druids are affected by the hit table in terms of their mastery as well, just pointing that out.

    IMO even though DS is getting a heal nerf, the stacking part of it is actually an improvement to the spec overall.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Shirosaki View Post
    Druids are affected by the hit table in terms of their mastery as well, just pointing that out.

    IMO even though DS is getting a heal nerf, the stacking part of it is actually an improvement to the spec overall.
    I already pointed out that Druids are affected by the hit table.

    Druids have a massive advantage for DKs though (in terms of activating their Mastery) in that every ability they use, which can crit, can activate the Mastery along with auto attacks. They're certainly in the same looking boat as DKs, but the interior is much nicer.

  4. #4
    We have a bit of an advantage when recovering from a series of unavoided blows, or a huge amount of damage taken over 5s. Getting healed for 50k and popping a 55k shield right after is awesome. I do agree that we are dependable on way too many things right now. Fights where theres a healing debuff(halfus+slate, e.g) or you cant hit the mob(omnotron) can screw us royally

  5. #5
    I agree with you OP. Not only do paladins and warriors get the advantage of blocking stuff that we don't get, they also get "lol easysauce" masteries in comparison as well.

  6. #6
    Death Knights are a hero class, and quite a bit different from all the other classes. A blood DK has a lot more to think about when tanking, and I feel that a good DK tank is better than a good tank of another class for that reason. I love having my mastery go to something I can control, it gives me that much more power to use it in situations where I really need it. Yeah, I have to cap my hit and expertise, but it's not like that really ruins Christmas for a tank anyways. More hit/expertise = more threat = more runes and runic power for keeping yourself alive rather than trying to keep that damned *insert dps class here* below you on omen. Blizzard doesn't want every class to play the same, they want you to be able to choose the one that best fits your play style. In the most un-dicklike way as possible, if you don't like the mechanics of a DK tank, try playing a paladin, warrior, or druid!
    -Love,
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  7. #7
    looking at the effect of the mastery, dk's have a bit of an advantage over druids, seeing the dk blood shield absorbs up to the damage its worth, while the druid savage defense will go away with the first hit the druid takes (rendering it quite bad for aoe tanking). savage defense activates on 50% of the crits only, which will boil down to every 4th or 5th attack triggering it. also, savage defense doesnt stack - if you have savage defense on you when you crit again you wont absorb twice as much.
    edit: savage defense depends on: crit, hit, expertise, AP (and thus also stamina) and of course also mastery rating.

    theres a reason why dk tanks are known as the easiest to heal, and the reason for that (alongside the selfheals) is the mastery.

    sidenote: none of the masteries does anything about spelldamage, they are all physical only.

    bottomline, every tank will think his mastery is worth less than the other tank classes'
    Last edited by Scheijan; 2011-02-03 at 08:38 AM.

  8. #8
    I am Murloc! Sy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brownprobe View Post
    Death Knights are a hero class, and quite a bit different from all the other classes. A blood DK has a lot more to think about when tanking, and I feel that a good DK tank is better than a good tank of another class for that reason. I love having my mastery go to something I can control, it gives me that much more power to use it in situations where I really need it.
    /sign

    i'd never change the dk mastery in a way that made it more passive, the significant control over my own survivability (not only through ds and mastery, but also other selfheals and the massive amount of different cds) is what makes this tanking class way more fun than the other three, for me - and for many others as well.
    this includes having to use ds and having to time it right.

    that said, i think the op does have a point. having - theoretically, with no threat stat - 8% miss chance, 6.5% dodge chance AND 14% parry chance on an ability that HEAVILY depends on timing is somewhat.. suboptimal.
    and on fights with ms effects or in situations where you aren't able to (or at least shouldn't) hit something in melee range, we have quite a disadvantage.
    Last edited by Sy; 2011-02-03 at 02:39 PM.

  9. #9
    Scarab Lord AetherMcLoud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sy View Post
    that said, i think the op does have a point. having - theoretically, with no threat stat - 8% miss chance, 6.5% dodge chance AND 14% parry chance on an ability that HEAVILY depends on timing is somewhat.. suboptimal.
    and on fights with ms effects or in situations where you aren't able to (or at least shouldn't) hit something in melee range, we have quite a disadvantage.
    That could be easily fixed though, with DS always healing no matter if it hits, gets parried, or whatever. Then our "block" wouldn't depend on hit can experise anymore.
    You know what is better than drinking a beer? Brewing your own beer. And then drinking it. And then... Drinking another beer. And then, punching somebody in the snout! That's what!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by AetherMcLoud View Post
    That could be easily fixed though, with DS always healing no matter if it hits, gets parried, or whatever. Then our "block" wouldn't depend on hit can experise anymore.
    oh it would depend even more...
    Since we don't get RP from missed/parried/dodged strikes and they don't go on rune CD either. So having as few expertise and hit as possible to maximize the number of DS would become a necessity. And if you would just make it miss and consume runes, you'd have to tamper with some mechanics possibly breaking other attacks doing so (hey, IT/PS missed but the target still got the disease, wtf?).

  11. #11
    Scarab Lord AetherMcLoud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nye View Post
    oh it would depend even more...
    Since we don't get RP from missed/parried/dodged strikes and they don't go on rune CD either. So having as few expertise and hit as possible to maximize the number of DS would become a necessity. And if you would just make it miss and consume runes, you'd have to tamper with some mechanics possibly breaking other attacks doing so (hey, IT/PS missed but the target still got the disease, wtf?).
    Good point. I actually haven't thought that through - that's what you get when you post in your midday break
    You know what is better than drinking a beer? Brewing your own beer. And then drinking it. And then... Drinking another beer. And then, punching somebody in the snout! That's what!

  12. #12
    I am Murloc! Sy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AetherMcLoud View Post
    That could be easily fixed though, with DS always healing no matter if it hits, gets parried, or whatever. Then our "block" wouldn't depend on hit can experise anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nye View Post
    oh it would depend even more...
    i have to agree with Nye, that wouldn't be a good solution.

    but like the op already pointed out, a talent that would make death strike at least undodge/parryable - just like it is the case with rune strike - would help a lot. something similar could also been done for hit (and maybe decrease it's damage a little in turn).

    sure, that would only fix part of the problem. in situations where you can't hit anything, you still won't be able to use the heal. but at least this is only a problem in very few specific situations, like with the barriers in the om nom nom encounter. and to be honest, if all dps switches targets in an instant, a single death strike (and white hit) every ~8 seconds on a barrier will most likely do no actual harm anyway. also, they are only active for a small part of the fight.

    also keep in mind, beeing able to always heal with ds, no matter if it hits something, would most likely make it too powerful, since block usually only works in melee range too.


    edit: apparently, you already noticed it yourself^^
    Last edited by Sy; 2011-02-03 at 02:38 PM.

  13. #13
    In WotLK people complained that Blizzard was "catering for retards". Now they finally made a tanking class which requires brains and dedication and you complain that it is too hard.
    Bottom line is, if hit rating and expertise are viable stats for a DK tank, and the DK tank is still a viable tank, the the name of the stats are irrelevant since they serve the same purpose; increasing survivability. I'm sorry if they made the class too hard for you, but practice does make perfect. Just have at it =)

  14. #14
    While the OP makes some very good points, I don't feel like I'm at much of a disadvantage in game. I think we are very strong tanks at this point. Hell, my off-spec tank set only has 2 epics in it and I'm perfectly capable to tank every boss in Cata, with Nefarion being the only thing still left up for us. (on normal mode)
    Last edited by Wingwraith; 2011-02-03 at 03:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by kumduh View Post
    @Wingwraith: You can haz a point too, but only because you admit you're a tool!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by pucGG View Post
    In WotLK people complained that Blizzard was "catering for retards". Now they finally made a tanking class which requires brains and dedication and you complain that it is too hard.
    No one is doing this.

    The problem with Blood DK Mastery is a design flaw, not a functional flaw. Blizzard likes to clean up messy ends, take Unholy for example; the old Unholy Mastery was horrible, yet Unholy DKs did impressive damage. Is there any clear objective reason to change it in this case? You could argue that the old Mastery was functional and the Unholy tree as a whole was doing very well and so no Mastery change was needed; however, you'd be wrong in Blizzards' eyes because you'd be wrong from a design perspective.

    Design is just as important as performance.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by pucGG View Post
    In WotLK people complained that Blizzard was "catering for retards". Now they finally made a tanking class which requires brains and dedication and you complain that it is too hard.
    Bottom line is, if hit rating and expertise are viable stats for a DK tank, and the DK tank is still a viable tank, the the name of the stats are irrelevant since they serve the same purpose; increasing survivability. I'm sorry if they made the class too hard for you, but practice does make perfect. Just have at it =)
    /sign

    I love Tanking as a DK. I spent BC tanking as a Paladin, Wrath starting to Tank as a DK (started it late in the game), and Cata only tanking as a DK. The class does take skill, moreso than other tanks? imho I would say yes, but I'm biased.

    Each type of tank has it's advantages/disadvantages and always will. otherwise we would all just be kool-aids of a different flavor and extremely boring to play.

    With Skill, Awareness, and proper balancing of your stats, DK tanks are a force to be reckoned with.

    We can self heal through Lichborne+Coil & Deathstrike.
    We have multiple cooldowns (Icebound,Vamp Blood,Runic Weapon,Anti-Magic Shield)

    Not to mention our Runeforging, Blood Presence buffs, Bone shield.

    We are extremely well equipped compared to other tanks when it comes to our available button mashing.

  17. #17
    if hit rating and expertise are viable stats for a DK tank, and the DK tank is still a viable tank, the the name of the stats are irrelevant since they serve the same purpose; increasing survivability
    Thing is, we'd have to get Hit and Expertise at the cost of other defensive stats. Meanwhile, Block is passive and warriors/paladins dont have to worry about hit/expertise having any impact in their mastery, therefore being able to focus on defense even more than us(take a look at the tanks in top guilds, their hit and expertise are usually low).
    Personally, I'm not hit capped nor do I intend to be right now, and sitting at 22 expertise. Havent had any problems, be it with threat(lolvengeance) nor survivability. Im not sure that losing the amount of parry and dodge to cap hit would be worth the trade.

  18. #18
    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=49410

    This is our passive "block"

    I would much rather parry a full force attack, then block a few thousand off it and still take the hit.

    NM: Just found that as of 4.0.3 All tanks get that ability.

  19. #19
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    ondemand shield > RNG block
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  20. #20
    Block has diminishing returns.

    Blood Shield does not.

    We win!

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