Warlock class design in Cataclysm

[Trollslaughter]

omg what a bunch of QQers!! Metamorphosis and it's special abilities, Felguard's bladestorm and stun, molten core and stuff as demo. soul swap, unstable affliction, powerful drain life as affliction. Destruction: fire stuff and awesomeness. and its a really powerful class in pvp and pve stop being crying bitches.

English sucks btw!

[Dochaelian]

omg what a bunch of QQers!! Metamorphosis and it's special abilities, Felguard's bladestorm and stun, molten core and stuff as demo. soul swap, unstable affliction, powerful drain life as affliction. Destruction: fire stuff and awesomeness. and its a really powerful class in pvp and pve stop being crying bitches.

English sucks btw!

LoL Go fuck yourself asshole . Warlocks suck compared to most classes unless they have said other classes catering to support thier difficiencies. Don't care if my language offends and, for sure dont care if i loose my so called priviledges of posting on these nerd forums ever again. I can create and play another class that i have very little knowledge of , not know what all my icons do and beat the fuck out of almost everyone i encounter and if i cant i stilll have a means of escape.Yet the class i've played for 6 fucking years sill struggles . Again , go fuck yourself nerd boy.

[Iamthewolf]

There is nothing wrong with Warlocks. Sounds like to me people are either bored of playing them or not playing their spec correctly.

[oplawlz]

It's gotta be a preference thing, I love my lock more than ever >.>

All three specs feel like they take some timing and skill to execute properly, and I am ok with that.

[Dochaelian]

There is nothing wrong with Warlock.

Ha Ha thats a good one.

---------- Post added 2011-02-05 at 01:53 AM ----------

It's gotta be a preference thing, I love my lock more than ever >.>

All three specs feel like they take some timing and skill to execute properly, and I am ok with that.

Hehe snicker.

[nocturnus]

So Jessica, you decided to completely ignore my post huh? Well, good for you! I assume the 'dps' whine wasn't directed at me, since I said nothing specific about the state of it. If you think I did, you should read my reply this time. Maybe reply to the countless points I mentioned which might affect the way you look at the class.

Again you show major dissatisfaction and frustration. Maybe even anger. Are you sure this is a warlock issue and not a Jessica issue? Do you think you'd be making less complaint posts if you'd been a mage, rogue or hunter? It seems to me, that you're unhappy about the way you play your warlock and you somehow want to blame the class mechanics. How can you not care about the fact that our class is in a better-than-ever state? There's a difference between saying: "Hey devs, thanks for the awesome changes you made, but could you also fix these small issues" and your continuous over-dramatic, dystopian complaints.

Clearly you're frustrated. It's clouded your judgement and you're probably close to a burn out. My advice: stop playing your lock, explore other classes, or games even. If you really love this class you'll come back to it eventually. Now, you're just forcing it and it's not doing you any good. That much is clear...

[Jessicka]

So Jessica, you decided to completely ignore my post huh? Well, good for you! I assume the 'dps' whine wasn't directed at me, since I said nothing specific about the state of it. If you think I did, you should read my reply this time. Maybe reply to the countless points I mentioned which might affect the way you look at the class.

Again you show major dissatisfaction and frustration. Maybe even anger. Are you sure this is a warlock issue and not a Jessica issue? Do you think you'd be making less complaint posts if you'd been a mage, rogue or hunter? It seems to me, that you're unhappy about the way you play your warlock and you somehow want to blame the class mechanics. How can you not care about the fact that our class is in a better-than-ever state? There's a difference between saying: "Hey devs, thanks for the awesome changes you made, but could you also fix these small issues" and your continuous over-dramatic, dystopian complaints.

Clearly you're frustrated. It's clouded your judgement and you're probably close to a burn out. My advice: stop playing your lock, explore other classes, or games even. If you really love this class you'll come back to it eventually. Now, you're just forcing it and it's not doing you any good. That much is clear...

You barely touched on a single point I made. There was nothing to respond to. That you said "I think the OP is referring to ISF" only shows you did not read, or take in anything I said. I made a series of very clear points about specific abilities, and how they related to specific problems that had been forseen previously, or indeed actually duplicated issues that had had to be fixed in the previous expansion. There was nothing vague about any of it to come to your conclusion.

Now you say this:

"Hey devs, thanks for the awesome changes you made, but could you also fix these small issues"

Well, if you had actually read what I'd said, you'd know I said "I love the notional idea of" "the different effects from different Demons is a nice idea" "Which again, is a nice idea" "around a dynamic cooldown (which I love)" "Our new spells too, Fel Flame and Dark Intent. Nice ideas" "A lot of very nice ideas". How could you have possibly read, and considered what I've said and go on to make the above statement? I already did that.

You claim to not be making personal attacks, yet make assumptions about what I've said, and statements based on those to somehow taunt me, and goad me with statements such as "not a Jessica issue?" "you're unhappy about the way you play your warlock"? I can't help but think that if I'd made this post using a new account your response would have been very different. The fact is, these are Warlock issues. You would realise this if you took the time to read them. Instead, you make statements such as "Well, CALL THE COASTGUARD! ALLERT THE PROPER AUTHORITIES! THE HORROR!" as a mocking gesture, rather than addressing whether it's a problem with the overall design of the class. And that's the only thing you touched on that I mentioned, with a response that it's actually something you really don't give a shit about. You almost touched on Talents. Almost. Yet you've failed to notice that Shadowfury isn't optional given the so called alternatives: Aftermath, Backlash and Improved Searing Pain - that is actually the issue to which I'm aluding too.

You go on to say "We do competitive dps....it's still not good enough" and decide you didn't say anything specific about it? The hell? That and that alone is clearly your singlular concern. Oh, maybe being able to say "oh we have something to widen the skill delta" would be nice too. Otherwise, your response is pretty clear that overall design is something you really don't give a shit about - given that, why even look at a post whos title is clearly on that subject?

[nocturnus]

You go on to say "We do competitive dps....it's still not good enough" and decide you didn't say anything specific about it? The hell? That and that alone is clearly your singlular concern. Oh, maybe being able to say "oh we have something to widen the skill delta" would be nice too.

Well, I'm used to the fact that you distort what others say, in a poor attempt to strengthen your statements. I actually said:

We do competitive dps, we can be very good at pvp, we're challenging and fun to play, we've got a distinct feel and yet, it's still not good enough...

Anyone with half a brain understands that the meaning of this sentence is that we're doing good overal. You see the word 'dps' and are infuriated like a bull before a fluttering piece of cloth.

All these so called 'problems' you mentioned are, as always, problems you have with the warlock class. Might I add, you've got way too many. That's why I initially thought you might be a border-line burn-out case.

Let me put it like this:

"Furthermore, they are horrendously designed from a levelling perspective, with only Affliction actually offering anything as an insight to it's playstyle from the very first tier - Demonology is horrendous"

- Warlocks are great to level up. They're much like hunters, very easy to level up quickly. Pulling a whole village and drain-tank is great fun! 0 downtime and awesome survivability. Go demo and you can solo elites without a problem. Even better, your FG solo an alliance player while you finish your quest!

"We're completely talent starved, and at the same time bloated with mandatory DPS talents. If there were talents available for utility, we couldn't pick them up."

- Warlock utility in raids is amazing. SF, NW, Replenish, SB:SoC, DP, SL, TP, CoE, CoT - all great means of utility. Your raid will be eternally grateful for having these at their discrete disposal.

"My second gripe is our Demons. I love the notional idea of it not mattering which Demon we choose from a damage perspective, but instead choosing them based on utility. However, the implementation of the attempt is absolutely horrific. So bad, that the disparity between their outputs runs into the 1000s of DPS."

- The demons. Finaly, they're useful. Sure, the theoretical balance isn't flawless yet. But like I wrote, it's 'theoretical' balance. This issue is being addressed by the devs.

"mandatory DPS talents"

- ISF was an issue for some people. I personally like the mechanic. It resulted in cookie-cutter builds for both aff as demo. But that's also already been addressed, so why complain about it again? On top of that, I did just fine as affliction without it.

- We've got 3 beautiful talent trees. All excelling in particular fights. This is a pretty unique thing and quite frankly we're in a priviledged position if you consider other classes.

Overal, only positive remarks about our class! Sure, some minor bugs need to be fixed, but like I said, those issues are already being looked at. You can expect issues this early into an expansion.

You see, this negative circle you're dwelling in, is uncalled for. The warlock class is in a great position - especially compared to the past, but you wouldn't know about that, considering your age.

My friendly advice is still the same by the way.

[Jessicka]

None of what you're saying has anything to do with anything I've written. It's obvious you're trolling, I am going to ignore any and all further posts from you. My only comment about ISF is how it's been a beacon of trouble so please, just forget it. It's gone.

[Dethh]

I'm afraid I have to agree with Nocturnus on this one. Warlocks have never been in a better spot in any expansion. I have never had more fun playing my warlock. Being able to play any of the 3 specs and not be gimped is amazing. I don't understand how you have so many complaints about this class.

[nocturnus]

None of what you're saying has anything to do with anything I've written. It's obvious you're trolling, I am going to ignore any and all further posts from you. My only comment about ISF is how it's been a beacon of trouble so please, just forget it. It's gone.

Since 'everything I've said' has 'nothing to do' with what you've written, I've taken the liberty to add some quotes.

[Jessicka]

I'm afraid I have to agree with Nocturnus on this one. Warlocks have never been in a better spot in any expansion. I have never had more fun playing my warlock. Being able to play any of the 3 specs and not be gimped is amazing. I don't understand how you have so many complaints about this class.

While I agree our playstyle and having 3 unique and completely viable specs puts us in a great place right now - there are always things that can be done better, and it's those things I feel could be done better I want to discuss. Saying "Warlocks are fine and great" is one thing, and in many cases that's true; but it doesn't allow for things to progress or be built upon. In much the same way in my own guild and raids my DPS is highly competative, that's no reason for me to not come here and to other forums to look for ways to improve upon it.

---------- Post added 2011-02-05 at 01:09 PM ----------

Ok, I'll bite for the very last time:

- Warlocks are great to level up. They're much like hunters, very easy to level up quickly. Pulling a whole village and drain-tank is great fun! 0 downtime and awesome survivability. Go demo and you can solo elites without a problem. Even better, your FG solo an alliance player while you finish your quest!

Does not address the issues within the talent trees.

- Warlock utility in raids is amazing. SF, NW, Replenish, SB:SoC, DP, SL, TP, CoE, CoT - all great means of utility. Your raid will be eternally grateful for having these at their discrete disposal.

Does not address the lack of options within the talent trees.

- The demons. Finaly, they're useful. Sure, the theoretical balance isn't flawless yet. But like I wrote, it's 'theoretical' balance. This issue is being addressed by the devs.

Tacit agreement? It could be done better and is being looked at - I pointed out where precisely this needs looking at, and offered suggestions as to how.

- ISF was an issue for some people. I personally like the mechanic. It resulted in cookie-cutter builds for both aff as demo. But that's also already been addressed, so why complain about it again? On top of that, I did just fine as affliction without it.

Doesn't address the fact this talent broke our scaling with Haste at the end of this tier. Nor was I even talking about that particular talent in any case.

[nocturnus]

As for the tacit agreement, I never said I disagreed on all your points. I merely said that you're overdramatic as always. Which might be a well functioning tactic to draw attention from unsuspecting readers. The Michael Jackson tactic, if you will

"Does not address the issues within the talent trees" - What problem? Just because you think it's a problem, doesn't make it one. There would be a problems if leveling up would be a horrible experience due to the way talent trees are composed. Since this is the complete opposite, I conclude that this so called 'problem' is in fact non-existent.

"Does not address the lack of options within the talent trees" - I don't lack options in my trees and since we're playing the same class, neither should you. It's very easy really: don't take ISF and you've got quite some 'free' talent points to spend however you like. No, ISF isn't mandatory Jessica. Again, there is no lack of options.

The fact that they are completely changing ISF from granting haste to fire damage already addressed the scaling issues that could arise in tiers to come - not at the end of this tier you silly goose. Even in BiS hc gear, haste levels aren't high enough for a negative backfire.

[Micke]

While I agree our playstyle and having 3 unique and completely viable specs puts us in a great place right now - there are always things that can be done better, and it's those things I feel could be done better I want to discuss. Saying "Warlocks are fine and great" is one thing, and in many cases that's true; but it doesn't allow for things to progress or be built upon. In much the same way in my own guild and raids my DPS is highly competative, that's no reason for me to not come here and to other forums to look for ways to improve upon it.

You know very well blizzard work according to highest priorities, warlocks are really at the bottom of them atm imo, and that's totally reasonable. You'll just have to accept that blizz won't put aside those higher priorities to fix this right away.

[Xetenor]

That was a lot of reading...

I do not think blizzard will be really changing any class to the way even most of us would really want it to be like and that's something you just have to accept sadly. I really wonder what these developers are doing changing things so much. It's as if they cannot make up their mind. This may be related to just how much people are complaining about in general. For once, try to enjoy the game and/or go outside and see real life!

I remember playing my lock in BC; was really fun aside from stupid soul shards farming which was a dull idea to begin with. I'd just play another class or game until blizzard maybe will change things for locks As said, the expansion is very fresh still. Will need to give it time again and again for things to change. Blah. I am actually playing other games right now until the patch comes to see how things will change. Left for dead 2 is pretty fun. Instant fun, no BS

[Nicola]

The main problem i'm having with the talents right now is that some talents are just overpowered while other talents r rather useless.
Imo all talents should gife something equal, not one talent giving a flat 10% dps boost while another talent gifes something u never use.
Another problem I have is mastery. Afliction has to use a filler that doesnt scale and demonology depends on rng.
Soulburn is also anoying me. There are just to few usefull effects. I mean, how hard is it to add aditional effects. Just for example: Soulburn:fear: fear is not infected by immunities or target gets a 70% slow for 5sec after fear wears off or even make fear not break on dmg.
Last problem I have is the pets. Some pets r just useless. That blue thing we never use is just useless. A felguard can tank almost as good as it but felguard does twice as much dmg and the shield is just crap.

[Deleted]

I am now levelling another Warlock, and it's really strange seeing, and knowing how to play each tree at the level cap, but not seeing any sort of path through to any semblance of that until very late on. A couple of people in my guild have said much the same as they've levelled: 'when do I get Incinerate?' 'what's the point in Molten Core/Impending Doom/Improved Soul Fire etc etc at this level' etc. It's not like they didn't have the forsight to move other classes' spell levels at which they were learnt to accomodate new/changed talents.

Exactly.
How can newbie make a reasonable choice picking talents while leveling with such trees?
And for most cases simple swap of talents' positions would be enough.



Plus is this implemented yet?

As we have hinted on occasion, we have a revamp of the entire system in the works. This is a big change, beyond the scope of the 3.2 patch, but we are confident -- CONFIDENT -- that the new system will be something warlocks finally enjoy. (I’m sure I will never, ever regret saying that.) We hope to be able to talk more about it at BlizzCon, but the basic idea is that shards provide a combat boost when needed without becoming a resource that needs to be farmed. Currently too many of the shard abilities are maintenance-like things such as demons and stones. Blowing a shard should be a big deal -- an exciting moment. We want to make shards fun and remove the hassle, but we want to make them a core part of the warlock experience and not a marginalized feature.

Only change I feel is lack of the hassle of shard farming.
80% of this feel could be achieved by making shard stackable on second week of vanilla.

[RewinD-]

You bring up several good points but I think the one I agree with the most is pet design. Seeing as I play Demonology as much as I can, it rather disturbs me that Felguard barely has an edge up on other pets. I'm not even sure at this point if succy is better to use. In 4.0.6 I'm supposed to use an imp? I'm sorry but something is seriously wrong if the trademark of my talent tree is going completely unused. Beyond that I am satisfied with the play style, although needless to say there are numerous problems that need to be fixed (and have been for months now) which are making me pretty uneasy.

[Meejum]

Yeah, the pet situation is a little silly, and no, I dont exactly trust the devs to get it right anytime soon. ISF was known to be crappy during beta/ptrs, and it was made known through numerous posts on the official forums, yet it still came through. The track record is a bit questionable for me right now. That said, I wont mind being demo and flipping pets based on the fight, and i really wont care if its an imp for single target.


Fel Flame, also long known to be pretty boring, still looks only to be used as a totem killer, even with the new tier bonus. A few other classes' "new" spells are a bit underwhelming also, I would just like it to be a bit more useful overall.

Really dont have a problem with Dark Intent. It's free haste, even in the worst situation, and I'm glad its not the same as the old FM, because it shouldnt be. It doesn't bother me if there isn't a boomie or SPriest around to make it superbadass, I can find someone who could use it.

My biggest worry is that demo, with the mastery changes to it, will be too much based around being in meta form and too dependent on pets. IF ones gets everything timed perfectly and lines up every possible trinket/buff/proc with a meta period, I fear the results will be dramatically beyond if one just cast meta without worrying about that. It should be an improvement to time meta with certain buffs, but I can see it being very drastic. The counter argument is that the best players will figure out how to do that all, but the difference, I think, would be too huge. Crit rolling corruption with an NMIC or spending 80% of the saurfang fight in decimation, two recent examples that come to mind highlighting the use of "skill" based on procs/trinks, certainly upped ones dps, but I think getting meta lined up, in the next patch, will be ridiculously beyond those two examples if fully tricked out. Our damage oustide of meta form, on single targets, is already pretty pitiful, and the changes will only make the difference larger. I would prefer a more stable approach, I guess. One fix I would like to see is to make Molten Core proc more, or proc differently, or be changed somehow. The rng is just far too painful with that talent right now.

Other than that, I am having fun playing my lock. Not as much fun as other classes, but we really don't have it that bad, unless one is considering Destro pvp, which, I feel, is very broken. PvE wise, all three specs look to still be workable in a raid and will shine depending on the fight, which is a great thing. Ret pallies and ele shams should really get major fixes, before we get anything, probably even more than what is on the table for them

[Yuanrang]

"Does not address the issues within the talent trees" - What problem? Just because you think it's a problem, doesn't make it one. There would be a problems if leveling up would be a horrible experience due to the way talent trees are composed. Since this is the complete opposite, I conclude that this so called 'problem' is in fact non-existent.

It's a problem when you end up picking talents that actually doesn't benefit you. The structure of the trees, while logical from a level 85 point of view, is horribly rough at best at certain points in the trees. The fact that you have to spend talent points, which now is twice as rare as before Cataclysm, on talents that modify abilities you either don't have or won't use, is just idiotic. If you had spent less time trying to 1-up Jessicka and actually tried to level a new warlock and looked at the specs while you did it, you'd raise some good questions if you had as much common sense that you seem to think you have.

Warlocks are among the strongest leveling classes in the game, true. You won't have a problem leveling as a warlock because it's insanely hard to go wrong, but the thing is, that has a lot to do with our base abilities. Leveling-wise, our talents are a curse and a blessing. It's nice to be able to talent into things that's actually useful when leveling, but having to use talent points on abilities you won't have or won't use when leveling, doesn't really make much sense there and then, even if they do make sense in the long run.