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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by moodoc View Post
    explain how what hes trying to achieve wont work in table form ?>< its 4 images

    you talking like there is only one way to do something witch is wrong
    table for layouts is still being used by big people too , alot of freebased guild sites you see still use mostly tables scripted in with css so u can change look freely
    It doesn't matter if it could be done with tables or if other people are doing it: you shouldn't be using tables for layout purposes, if you so you're doing it wrong. Tables are for presenting data in a table format and that's it. Layout should be done using divs and CSS.

  2. #22
    lol... so u dont add anything that proves ur point other then saying that its wrong

    sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo linuilas the webmaster says not to do it so dont do it? fail

    u did not give any reasons other then repeating the same thing u said in your old post

    and contradict your self by saying it can be done , but its wrong?? its not wrong ur just biased towards tables, tables have been used for a long time
    they work nothing wrong with them

    yes people who get money for doing sites codes tables are just wrong cause u say so ....
    i have been payed for making full css sites, full php sites, full asp sites, any site as long as it fits the clients needs is valid
    last post from me

  3. #23
    Field Marshal stahlhammer89's Avatar
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    If i got money for making a site with the layout made via tables I'd feel like I was ripping them off. div positioning is not hard and if you have any interest in perusing web development any further you should learn how to do it correctly.

    And as for a link to why,
    CSS with Minimal Tables

    In the bad old days web developers placed all page elements in tables, and if the page didn't look as expected it needed yet more tables inside the already existing tables. This process was repeated until the page worked. The underlying theory seemed to be “If we squeeze enough HTML into the page it'll work eventually.” It made for eternal download times and nonsensical markup that was impossible to update.
    Sure Apple isn't the king of web development but still this should be taken seriously
    developer.apple.com/internet/webcontent/bestwebdev.html

  4. #24
    yes , if u are doing a site where its gonna end up being a 5mb file to script and have 100 pages ofcourse your not gonna code in table formated
    ur gonna do the smart way of css/ or php/ or even make a content management system / use one

    i wasnt argueing that css doesnt have a better point
    its just plain stupid to claim that tables are bad for smaller projects casue there is somthing better

    in that case use php, cause its better


    i was going based off his site


    if i code a one page template site that links off to forums etc other stuff and isnt implamented as the main design there is nothing making it load slower with such a small site


    but thank you, you at least sited something to validate your point instead of ITS BAD CAUSE I SAY SO


    pretty sure if he was gonna pursue this as a job, he will take your advice and learn the best methods to make long projects easier cause 6 pages of coding and its done poooooorly sucks i have fixed bad coding jobs html is easy to fix but php / asp or javascripts finding the one error thats messing with everything can be a pain to fix if it was done poorly
    Last edited by moodoc; 2011-02-04 at 01:45 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by moodoc View Post
    lol... so u dont add anything that proves ur point other then saying that its wrong

    sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo linuilas the webmaster says not to do it so dont do it? fail

    u did not give any reasons other then repeating the same thing u said in your old post
    It's wrong because the HTML spec says that tables are to be used for displaying data that needs to be shown in a table, not for layout. In fact the draft spec for HTML5 actually goes as far as saying tables must not be used as layout aids. And then there's the fact that using tables for layout purposes usually causes problems with accessibility for disabled users, doesn't work properly when people are using mobile browsers or different resolutions, causes additional bloat in your page and actually makes it trickier in the long run to maintain a consistent visual style across your website.

    Quote Originally Posted by moodoc View Post
    and contradict your self by saying it can be done , but its wrong?? its not wrong ur just biased towards tables, tables have been used for a long time
    they work nothing wrong with them
    There's nothing contradictory about saying tables can be used but that doing so is the wrong way to do it. Just because they can be used for layout doesn't mean they should be or that it's right to use them in that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by moodoc View Post
    yes people who get money for doing sites codes tables are just wrong cause u say so ....
    i have been payed for making full css sites, full php sites, full asp sites, any site as long as it fits the clients needs is valid
    last post from me
    Just because your clients don't have a problem with it doesn't change the fact that if you're using tables for layout you're doing it wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by moodoc View Post
    its just plain stupid to claim that tables are bad for smaller projects casue there is somthing better
    No, it's plain stupid to claim that you should produce a badly coded page just because you're too lazy to learn the proper way to do it.
    Last edited by Linuilas; 2011-02-04 at 01:44 AM.

  6. #26
    Really, if you all go to his page... HE MADE IT.. without using tables!

    Using the FIRST ideas that he got handed, so this is pretty much DONE.

    And I agree with that tables should NOT, if possible, be used as layout it's simply not correct, that being said it can easily be USED for it... but ofc. divs are the way to go...

    Also I only gave him the idea of using tables, cuz I thought he was gonna place each picture in a div, making the pictures stack upon each other..

    It was midnight here, and couldn't be arsed (soz) to learn him about wrapper, floating, css and divs, tables seemed like the perfect solution.

    Still there is nothing wrong with learning tables, they come in handy I tell you! ^^

  7. #27
    High Overlord Lalicat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linuilas View Post
    It's wrong because the HTML spec says that tables are to be used for displaying data that needs to be shown in a table, not for layout. In fact the draft spec for HTML5 actually goes as far as saying tables must not be used as layout aids. And then there's the fact that using tables for layout purposes usually causes problems with accessibility for disabled users, doesn't work properly when people are using mobile browsers or different resolutions, causes additional bloat in your page and actually makes it trickier in the long run to maintain a consistent visual style across your website.



    There's nothing contradictory about saying tables can be used but that doing so is the wrong way to do it. Just because they can be used for layout doesn't mean they should be or that it's right to use them in that way.



    Just because your clients don't have a problem with it doesn't change the fact that if you're using tables for layout you're doing it wrong.



    No, it's plain stupid to claim that you should produce a badly coded page just because you're too lazy to learn the proper way to do it.

    Okay, I'm barely a lurker...but I somehow stumbled upon this thread and registered a username for the SOLE purpose of giving you kudos for this post.

    I work for a well-known Canadian post-secondary institution as a New Media Designer/Developer in Marketing and also run my own small web business. I have years of experience in the field, and you were 100% right to take such a strong stance against using tables as anything other than for tabulated data. You mentioned accessibility... While the "HTML specifications" enforce this, there is actually legislation in both Canada and the United States that guarantees those with access disabilities the right to ease of access. Your clients may "never know" that you're using an archaic form of layout code to set up their website, but if you make the mistake of doing this with a larger company or a company who is mandated to cater to disabled individuals then I hope you'll be happy to back up your "lazy code" when a blind user tries to sue your client for discrimination because their screenreader can't easily browse their website.

    The main body of legislation I'm talking about is the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), and specifically section 508. One of the seven MINIMUM requirements to ensure accessibility includes:

    "Avoid access barriers such as the posting of documents in PDF, table, newspaper or frame format or requiring visitors to download software."

    If you want to see (no pun intended) how a blind user accesses a website, then download the plugin called "Fangs" for Firefox. Fangs is a screen reader emulator that will show you the text version of what a screen reader would read to a user. An entire website coded using tables would make the most patient person in the world want to self-immolate.

    You are doing a disservice to yourself and others by taking the lazy way out and are setting the bar and expectations extremely low for the other people in your industry. It's cute/cool if you think this is something you do in your spare time or for your family, but please have some pride in our field and maintain a high quality of work for EVERYONE'S benefit.

    I can't post relevant links yet...but Google:

    "Section 508"
    "Is Your Site ADA-Compliant...or a Lawsuit-in-Waiting?"
    "The W3C Web Accessibility Initiative"

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by moodoc View Post
    lol... so u dont add anything that proves ur point other then saying that its wrong

    sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo linuilas the webmaster says not to do it so dont do it? fail

    u did not give any reasons other then repeating the same thing u said in your old post

    and contradict your self by saying it can be done , but its wrong?? its not wrong ur just biased towards tables, tables have been used for a long time
    they work nothing wrong with them

    yes people who get money for doing sites codes tables are just wrong cause u say so ....
    i have been payed for making full css sites, full php sites, full asp sites, any site as long as it fits the clients needs is valid
    last post from me
    In the old days when CSS2 was the only thing available, I might have agreed that tables were an acceptable hack because it made things easier. However now with CSS3 support that is widespread and improvements in what you can do with CSS layouts, I don't use table hacks for layouts anymore. There's no real reason to.

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