Paragon on 10man vs 25man raids

[Diahi]

I wonder if most of the posters in this thread even read the blogpost that the OP quoted. I'm seeing multiple people talking about the difference in difficulty between the two modes while in reality that's not what it was about at all. Arx in fact admits that he doesn't have enough experience in 10 mans to comment on such things so why would you draw any conclusions on that subject based on the post?

What it really tries to discuss is the merging the 2 different sides of raiding, not whether they are currently equal in loot or difficulty, but instead why they should be regarded as different entities and why the top tier of both should gain equal recognition for their achievements. And frankly, if you think about it what harm would there be if the different raid sizes were separated like in the past? For some reason I can't think of any.

[Theholypally]

that was a long way to say "10m have less room for error"

which they do

blizz admitted to making 10h too hard on some fights in LK and have already done it here. when one mistake is so much more costly, how tight can you tune a fight?

as for the perception of it all, who gives a shit, when it's all said and done we'll see where people stand.

wotlk raiding was PERCEIVED as overall "lol" but some of the hardest wow fights ever came from wotlk raids

Some of the hardest wow fights came long before wotlk.

[Tennou]

"We have created six threads on this theme, and we became exceedingly effiecient and successful at it" (c)
It should be a common sence already that pro-gaming isn't about low quantity of players in raid. And it's hardcore pro gamers (read top-guilds) who make this mmorpg high-rated than ever. All the whine here may be interpreted like -"Oh I can't make world first because Blizz fails at tuning *cry".
First thing you should do to get WFs is to l2p and apply to (see wowprogress) any guild that is on the first page - Then you have a shot.
If not the case - just have fun-try-wipe-win in raids (25 or 10). I, personally raid in 10-man-friends-guild and find the actual content very cool (and no, we are not newbs
The laughble thing here (the theme - OHMYGOD 10m ARE OVERTUNED AND PARAGON etc DOWNS BOSSES BEFORE ME NOT FAIR) is that there are like 1% of gamers in this thread that are able to do world firsts, others are just jealoes about their inability which is fine tbh. Have fun and stop butthurting.

[beingmused]

What is greatly amusing is that before Cata launch, everyone was quite loud and assured in predicting the downfall of 25man raiding. Despite bumping loot up to 5 per boss, because the 25man loot wasn't "superior" absolutely noone could fathom why any guild wouldn't just take its best players and splinter off.

The current level of 10man difficulty is absolutely necessary, in that it prevents further disintegration of 25man groups. 25man difficulty seems to have been designed around the assumption that not everyone in the guild is going to match the talent level of the top folks. Paragon and other world first guilds are unique in that every player on their roster is going to play perfectly; in most guilds, even those working on hard modes already, you're always going to see some players who are half step behind the rest but are still core members due to having to field that many people, or social reasons, or whathaveyou. If 25s were tuned so tightly that everyone had to be perfect, then not only would it be out of whack (due to the much greater chance for disconnects, over 3 times as likely in 25man mode), but that really would end 25man raiding.

Alternatives that involve keeping them separate or awarding achievements separately - no, please, we already had the nightmare that was having to do raids in both 25 and 10 every week back in Wrath. That way leads burnout, and that'd be especially true now that you can't faceroll through ICC10 in 1.5 hours. I think the current situation is the best way to "balance" 25man and 10man participation overall, even if it results in there being more encounters tougher on 10man than on 25.

[Buuford]

I love these posts that say "top 10 man guilds on my server are talking about merging because 25s are easier"

It is true there is forgiveness in a 25 man raid for stupidity, same as in 10 man if you were smart, but not much. These so called 'top guilds' are finding out that they aren't as good as they thought they were. Once they merge they will be that same 25 man guild that can do some hard modes, but not all. The same guild that can't fill raid spots, the same guild that cries over loot, and the same guild that still won't work together. Then they'll try to blame it on scrubs in their guild. Those guilds are so laughable.

standard raid makeup???? what the heck is that???? so many guilds fail because of narrow thought, your guild is probably one of them. You HAVE to adapt, if someone sucks remove them from raid....oh but wait....billy bob your friend, hrmm, don't want to remove him do you? All this complaining about 10 mans really comes down to my next statement.

Just come clean and admit you don't like to adapt and that you suck. PERIOD.

[Captaincrab]

"We have created six threads on this theme, and we became exceedingly effiecient and successful at it" (c)
It should be a common sence already that pro-gaming isn't about low quantity of players in raid. And it's hardcore pro gamers (read top-guilds) who make this mmorpg high-rated than ever. All the whine here may be interpreted like -"Oh I can't make world first because Blizz fails at tuning *cry".
First thing you should do to get WFs is to l2p and apply to (see wowprogress) any guild that is on the first page - Then you have a shot.
If not the case - just have fun-try-wipe-win in raids (25 or 10). I, personally raid in 10-man-friends-guild and find the actual content very cool (and no, we are not newbs
The laughble thing here (the theme - OHMYGOD 10m ARE OVERTUNED AND PARAGON etc DOWNS BOSSES BEFORE ME NOT FAIR) is that there are like 1% of gamers in this thread that are able to do world firsts, others are just jealoes about their inability which is fine tbh. Have fun and stop butthurting.

Did you read Paragons post before going about saying anything?

What Paragon means by being overtuned isn't that it's impossible, it's that a 10 man guild can't realistically beat the encounters with the resources that you would expect out of such a guild, namely 10-15 players with a few offspecs thrown in for good measure. Where a 25 man guild, namely 25-35 odd members are capable of beating the tuning of 25 heroics, without having to resort to too many extremes.

There have been some exceptions along the way, Nef, Al'Akir and the Elemental Monstrosity come to mind, however Blizzard has been fairly quick to retune the encounters to ensure you don't need to change almost half your raid just to beat one encounter.

However on 10 man, many of the encounters encourage or almost require you to change many members in your raid composition in order to be successful (on top of having all available buffs/Debuffs) and he is basically saying that what you require to beat a 10 man heroic encounter is a 25 man guild. So the encounters are basically tuned for no one =/.

Sure you can have alot of fun in 10 mans, don't get me wrong, but just not if your goal is to one day clear the entire content unless you have some serious alt swapping action.

[Zadiell]

Ascendant council is a good example, in 10 man, if one dps dies its almost a lost fight, if they die in Phase 2 or early phase 3. Unless your phase 1 is near perfect, but I found we loose one dps and we are always shy the dps they would of done

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

Hasn't this been known since Sarth 3D? 25-man encounters haven't always been harder than 10-man, even when they were intended to be.

[Barael]

The current level of 10man difficulty is absolutely necessary

Considering I haven't heard anyone who HAS done more 10-man heroic encounters than Halfus call their current difficulty necessary or even justified, I'm at a loss as to what to say to someone who hasn't done them and still claims the difficulty is necessary.

[Deleted]

What Paragon means by being overtuned isn't that it's impossible, it's that a 10 man guild can't realistically beat the encounters with the resources that you would expect out of such a guild, namely 10-15 players with a few offspecs thrown in for good measure. Where a 25 man guild, namely 25-35 odd members are capable of beating the tuning of 25 heroics, without having to resort to too many extremes.

There have been some exceptions along the way, Nef, Al'Akir and the Elemental Monstrosity come to mind, however Blizzard has been fairly quick to retune the encounters to ensure you don't need to change almost half your raid just to beat one encounter.

However on 10 man, many of the encounters encourage or almost require you to change many members in your raid composition in order to be successful (on top of having all available buffs/Debuffs) and he is basically saying that what you require to beat a 10 man heroic encounter is a 25 man guild. So the encounters are basically tuned for no one =/.

Sure you can have alot of fun in 10 mans, don't get me wrong, but just not if your goal is to one day clear the entire content unless you have some serious alt swapping action.

Why would it have to be any different for a 10 man guild than 25? If paragon has 35 members and each of them has an alt, they probably used up to 60-70 different characters to clear 25 man content (all ranged DPS setup for Ascendant Council, 11 druids for Nefarian, 19 classes that could reset stacks on Al'akir are probably the most striking examples). Why would 10 man then not require to do the same? My guess is that there simply isn't a 10 man guild out there that is able or even willing to do this. I mean, just take a look at top 40 guilds on Wowprogress in both 10 and 25 man lists. As someone who has been raiding since Molten Core, I recognize at least 80% of the guilds in the 25 man list and only a handful from top 40 10 man guilds. That's the difference; most established guilds kept raiding 25 man which ultimately means that there has to be more skilled players currently doing 25 mans.