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  1. #41
    How about they take it back to how it was in wrath?
    Without it actually being wrath, it could work.
    Wrath didn't suck because 10's and 25's didn't have the same loot. Wrath didn't suck because 10's and 25's didn't share the same lockout.
    Wrath didn't suck because your group of friends couldn't be social enough to group with 15 other cool people to be good.
    Wrath sucked because they didn't make it difficult enough for the things they should have. Tuning fights so people are able to spam trade is dumb, tuning fights AND creating a raid browser to pick up people is dumb. Tell me how many Gruuls/TK/BT/SWP pugs you saw going on mid BC?
    Just give us the better loot back on 25's. Lower the difficulty of 10's, and let them drop the same amount of gear.
    You have the easy mode, you can have the easy loot. Easy = Easy.... Not easy = 1337.

    Where I can say 10mans are a bit harder for general raiders, because of raid comps, and probably that much more unforgiving on heroic. 25's are in no way easier for the core of your raid making things happen. Your officers, leaders, and even the healers suffer so much more on 25's than the average raider does on 10's. If you're browsing logs, recount, or whatever, you have 6-8 people to bitch at for getting hit by a shadow crash, or puking corruption all over the raid. You cant say you can just simply "carry" people, it doesn't work that way on progression bosses yet. If guilds are doing heroics right now, on 25 man, they are far beyond carrying garbage players.
    Last edited by Rocap; 2011-02-05 at 08:15 PM. Reason: Unforgiving*

  2. #42
    25's are in no way easier for the core of your raid making things happen. Your officers, leaders, and even the healers suffer so much more on 25's than the average raider does on 10's.
    This is the problem right here. People can not grasp the subject matter at hand. We are not talking average just by the fact that hard modes are being mentioned. Let's let that set in for a little while, please. My guild is ranked World 211 in 10mans and we didn't even bother to progress on anything this whole week. When we got our H-Chim kill (our 2nd hard mode) we were ranked World 120 in 10mans.

    A lot of the big progress guilds are 25man because they historically have a guild membership that supports that many people. 25man does mean the initial bit of gearing is slightly faster too so they were able to get out of the blocks a bit quicker and push for world firsts.

    I'm not flaming but your view is just a little too blinkered and about your own circumstances.
    I'm not sure to whom you're speaking, but if it's to me, my whole guild was level capped Dec 7th, the same night the expac hit. We had it about as good as it gets "coming out of the blocks". Most of us were in the same 25man guild during much of wrath and we decided, merely because of how blizzard propped up 10mans as far as equality between 10s and 25s, that we'd try them. And now, we're looking to move toward 25s again because they are easier and drop more loot. We'd be dumb not to! And the guild we're looking to merge with agrees.

    All you nay sayers can go on about this all you want, the truth of the matter is that the statistics have already shown that 25s are currently the easier ride for any typical hard core guild that doesn't bother with half a dozen alts per person. All the raid logistics, officer BS, and whatever else you can come up with for a 25man hard mode guild be damned, we're moving to that from 10mans because we think we'll be more successful while doing it.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by junialum View Post
    10 mans are currently tougher than 25s. Could be a tuning issue etc. I'm sure there will be fights that favour 25s or 10s back and forth in the future.
    This isn't true at all for normal modes. I'm in a 25 man guild, and on bosses we were stuck on, we went in to practice on ten mans on our off nights, and get the kill. Plus, there is usually a higher average ilvl in a ten man raid. http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier11_25 here you can see. Look at the differences between 10 and 25 number of kills.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handsylton View Post
    1. 10 man raids are easier than 25 man raids. They tune the fights so 10 mans are not A LOT easier on heroic, but ever so slightly easier than 25 mans.

    So you want this, yet same loot?

    Why?

    Atm, yes, some fights are easier on 10 than 25(Al'akir), but the reverse is also true, some are harder on 25 than 10.(Nef comes to mind).

    So, uh, no?

  5. #45
    its impossible to make every fight the same difficulity on both 10man and 25man mode, so some bosses will always be slightly harder/easier on 10man or 25man mode compared to the opposite.

    ---------- Post added 2011-02-06 at 01:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocap View Post
    Just give us the better loot back on 25's. Lower the difficulty of 10's, and let them drop the same amount of gear.
    i never liked doing 25mans, so no, dont ever think or dare to think about making us doing 25mans again for loot. "same amount of gear"? so, we gonna get as many pieces of gear for 10 people as 25 people?

  6. #46
    The reason why blizzard made 10/25 man raids to share the same lockout and ilvl loots was that at wotlk we had 3 different tiers actually.
    10 man normal mode -10man hc/25 normal mode-25man hc mode and this lead to a situation where the players stats where just out of control.
    we ended the expansion haste-crit-attack power-spell power capped and this i think is not smt that blizzard liked and propably will never happen again.

    So they made 10 man and 25 man raids to share the same lockout so that we actually can have access to one tier of gear per week.
    But then the problem was that with sharing lockouts they were banning 10man guilds from 25 man qualitty drops.
    at least on my server we had at wotlk many 10 man guilds that after their 10 man raids they were doing some 25 man with other guilds or random ppl just for some 25 man quality drops.
    If they were going to make raids sharing the same lockouts but not the same quality drops then they were clearly going to lock 10 man guilds out of the higher quality drops.and it is not a good thing neither for the players nor( spelling) for the company to have a good amount of their player base locked out of one game aspect.

    And then the biggest issue arised.If 10 man and 25 man raids are dropping the same quality gear then they must offer the same challenge.
    And here is what i believe will be the biggest goal for blizzard to achieve at pve from now on.How to balance 10man and 25 man raids?
    the 25 man can have all the buffs and can have more ppl to do one job so the that the % they will do it are higher than on 10 man.But also 25 man raids have less room to spread that means bigger aoe dmg and more ppl affected from debuffs so you have higher % that smt will go wrong.on the other hand 10 man raids are really easy to spread around to prevent spreading aoe etc but also 10 man most of the time lacks buffs and have less ppl that can assign to do a job on the raid.

    i will give some examples here.
    Al'akir 25 man because of the aoe dmg is harder than 10man because you have more ppl close to each other. so we have a fight that it is harder on 25 man than 10 man

    cho at 10 man is harder cause you have less ppl to interupt the tentacles and you have less aoe power to aoe down the adds during p1

    nefarian at 10m is harder you don't have a tank to kite the adds at p1 so a dps will have to do it which is a great loss of dps and at p3 you have less ppl to interupt the adds. if on 25 man you have a dc or a death from an unlucky momment you can call it out on vent and another person will take care of the interupt rotation. at 10 man if smt like this happen then it is propably a wipe.

    Balancing 10man and 25 man raid difficulty rank is the greatest challenge blizzard has to deal with at the current stage of the expansion.
    Atm it looks like for most of the ppl 10 man hc modes are overtuned.the progress 10 man guilds have at hc modes is vastly lower than the progress 25 man guilds have on hc modes.
    Sadly atm blizzard fails to balance the two raid types and we can only deal with it and try to provide them with constarctive feed back.
    for example when with my guild we were trying 10 man nef i was kitting the adds with my frost mage.on the 25 man we have our feral druids (2) in bear form aoe tanking them in the middle and it was so much much much easier to group them at the middle and let them go inactive.
    while watching this i had an idea which might be the most retarded idea ever or might be a good one.
    Since on 10 man the adds kitting is harder than in 25 man what if besides the fact that 10 man has less adds those adds where losing their energy a bit faster?that was my idea and i am saying again it might be the most retarded idea ever but after the raid i submited it on a ticket and maybe it will help a bit, at least is much better than going at a forum and crying like omfg what the f is with nefarian adds they are so op they need nerf omg what a fail etc etc.

    what i am trying to say is that atm blizzard even if they are trying they are failing to balance the 2 raiding types so if we actually want to play a game that will be balance in most of it's aspects we must all try and help them.after all it is our money and our time that we spent and comming at forums accusing( spelling) 10man raiding guilds for being bads or casuals etc or blaming 25 man raiders for being elitists is not going to help anyone.

    About me and my guild we are doing mainly 25 man raids cause we are a guild that has a lot of ppl that are together from wow starting beta and other games before wow like LN.we do only 10 man runs when we can fill a 25 man roster.

    And about all this hate against casuals that i can see not only here but in many many threads.we must all have in mind that casual players are the biggest part of the player base and that means they are the main source of money income for blizzard.I am not saying they must favor casuals because they earn money from them.I am saying that casuals must have a place in all the aspects of the game pvp/pve because if blizzard start losing casuals then we will all lose.because then they will have a lot less income for development and in and out of the game support and in general they will not be able to develop the game and support it like they are doing now.
    Wow without casual players will not be the wow we know but it will be a much much worse version so my suggestion?hard core raiders have their share so it is not the end of the world if some changes favor a bit a more casual game style.

    OMG MY LETTER WALL WILL CRIT FOR MORE THAN 9000

  7. #47
    my guess is that most of these posts by 10 man guilds had been 25 man for most is not all of Woltk. The same guilds that probably were only able to step into a couple heroics like loot ship and a couple of the easier ones. The same guilds that once they started reading about cataclysm were like "omgosh phat loots in 10 mode and we can get rid of the people we don't like because it's the same content and same lootzzzz!! we're l33t omgosh" but the reality is that you and your friends were probably carried by many other members that had been in your 25 raid. What you and most of these other 10 man guilds are experiencing now is the lack of skills by those friends you hand selected for your 10 man. Quit blaming blizz when it's your own problem. Tired of hearing "omgosh our sp had to heal!" and "I'm specc'd dps I don't want to tank" or "my fireballz does da dmg so i won't go frost" yadda yadda yadda. Content isn't there for what you think it should be, content is there to be a challenge and if you can't hack the challenge then quit.

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