Patch 4.0.6. Good or not for Resto

[Mixtape]

Endgame HM fights are not fully about throughput. Tbh, and I'm sure Mixtape can say if it's true or not, my guild is only 5/13 HMs so I haven't got to do the harder ones yet, but from what I've heard, druids can probably keep up healing wise on some of those fights fine.
Since we don't have gimmicky CDs, we just can't be taken. If that's true, this patch isn't fixing the problem.

This is pretty much the situation for alot of druids that are attempting the later hard mode bosses. AM and PW:B, for example, are pretty useful on heroic Cho'gall. When choosing the last healer spot, we had a choice between druids and shamans. Essentially, the druid would heal for more, but the shaman brought tide and had an extra viable interrupt. Could we bring tranquility from a balance druid? Yes. Could we bring rebirth from a balance/feral druid? Yes. Could we get replenishment from elsewhere? Yes. The decision was pretty clearcut that the shaman would provide a more unique utility to the raid even though they would heal for less than the druid. Ideally, if we had a third paladin, we probably would have dropped the shaman altogether.

The choices that are made aren't simply based on healing numbers alone. Even if you can make the argument to your healing officer that you can keep up numbers wise, how can you fill the void when a GS, AM, PS, PW:B provide extra utility when your own CDs aren't uniquely brought?

[Myrrar]

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You seem to miss the part that he is a top of the line HM druid, World 18 for that matter, and so what he is talking about is the fact that druids aren't being brought to those fights.

So yes, the fact that in every Paragon world 1st kill for the last month they have sat or respecd their resto druid because he bring no utility is a problem.

Also, you probably should have read the rest of the thread before jumping in to troll it. Healing throughput is not a problem. There is a reason druids destroy meters in reg modes. Our throughput is fine.

And, I'm fairly sure his guild isn't have 'people standing in fire and badly geared tanks' as a problem. Next time, read a thread fully before you rage out and troll it.

[Mixtape]

You are QQing that you are not Tree Form infinite mana pool broken anymore, and are not getting it back in this patch... Resto is not going to be the same as in Wrath, and will not return to that level of performance as it was before. The basic principle of Druids has always been HP regen., NEVER straight, over the top, healing. Because of this, certain factors like lack of tank avoidance/mitigation, dps stupidly standing in fire, and piss poor gameplay from other players would (and still will) undo the 'awesomeness' of your healing...

Druid healing will be fine in terms of their class..... Healers are still trying to do too much, and these healers in particular won't be able to cover the mistakes of other players via overhealing...

This really has no relevance to what I've been saying at all. What I've been arguing is that some changes have brought us in line with the other healers in terms of pure numbers, but the decision-making that goes into selecting which classes go to which boss fights isn't entirely dependent on numbers. If a druid heals on par with a paladin or a priest, but lacks the unique raid utility that those classes bring, where is the incentive to bring the druid? The point is that, while there should be diversity in terms of the healing classes, the developers really need to understand why certain classes are being stacked over others and try to bridge the gap in order to allow for a more diverse choice set.

[Shadowsz]

This really has no relevance to what I've been saying at all. What I've been arguing is that some changes have brought us in line with the other healers in terms of pure numbers, but the decision-making that goes into selecting which classes go to which boss fights isn't entirely dependent on numbers. If a druid heals on par with a paladin or a priest, but lacks the unique raid utility that those classes bring, where is the incentive to bring the druid? The point is that, while there should be diversity in terms of the healing classes, the developers really need to understand why certain classes are being stacked over others and try to bridge the gap in order to allow for a more diverse choice set.

I very much doubt it's a case of ''having to understand'' as you're clearly saying, the devs didn't design the classes as they are for some random reason. Although it's easy for everyone to see that they're clearly doing something wrong here, there must be something linked to it, blizzard doesn't do anything without thinking clearly about it(unless they put mr.bean in the front dev seat, just saying).

[Peacemoon]

I'm liking the changes. I think for general 5 man play Druid healing will be very powerful, as I'm already having zero problems even when poeple mess up. The change to improve our mastery is also amazing, as layering out spells is just crazy powerful. 6k crits from rejuv? Yes please! :-)

As for Raids, I am not sure. I don't raid much, only Baradin's Hold, and I did not find myself using Nourish at all. It would be cool if the 3 rejuvs gradually increased the cast time of Healing Touch. Like 5% haste per Rejuv.

Finally Regrowth is a spell that I use often for the living seed proc and also a mini HoT for layering/swiftmend. However it could use with something else. I like the idea for the glyph, but it really sits as a major and not a prime in my opinion. A prime glyph for Regrowth would be to link it back to Effloresence in some form.

I also agree with posters about guardian spirit and aura mastery. Perhaps Tree Form could get its aura back? +10% healing received on the whole raid for the duration, rather then +15% to our own spells would certainly improve out utility, and be great for those raid healing spots.

[Shadowsz]

I'm liking the changes. I think for general 5 man play Druid healing will be very powerful, as I'm already having zero problems even when poeple mess up. The change to improve our mastery is also amazing, as layering out spells is just crazy powerful. 6k crits from rejuv? Yes please! :-)

As for Raids, I am not sure. I don't raid much, only Baradin's Hold, and I did not find myself using Nourish at all. It would be cool if the 3 rejuvs gradually increased the cast time of Healing Touch. Like 5% haste per Rejuv.

Finally Regrowth is a spell that I use often for the living seed proc and also a mini HoT for layering/swiftmend. However it could use with something else. I like the idea for the glyph, but it really sits as a major and not a prime in my opinion. A prime glyph for Regrowth would be to link it back to Effloresence in some form.

I also agree with posters about guardian spirit and aura mastery. Perhaps Tree Form could get its aura back? +10% healing received on the whole raid for the duration, rather then +15% to our own spells would certainly improve out utility, and be great for those raid healing spots.

We're lacking raiding assets like -raid dmg, -dmg on target and stuff like that, not +healing stuff or similar things. Our healing throughput can be just as powerful as any of the other 3 healers, but as the fine druid from Ysondre-US is saying; we're lacking real healer abilities.

[Mixtape]

I very much doubt it's a case of ''having to understand'' as you're clearly saying, the devs didn't design the classes as they are for some random reason. Although it's easy for everyone to see that they're clearly doing something wrong here, there must be something linked to it, blizzard doesn't do anything without thinking clearly about it(unless they put mr.bean in the front dev seat, just saying).

If developers do understand that Paladins and Priests are being brought over druids because of healing output AND utility, wouldn't you logically assume they would attempt to bring some sort of balance into play? From what we've seen so far, they feel that the imbalance lies in the numbers only. That alot of the spells need buffs or nerfs, cooldown reductions, and fundamental changes. However, even if this balances the numbers game, how will they attest for the fact that PW:B, AM, GS, PS will still provide more utility than anything a resto druid can uniquely bring? That's where I see the fundamental flaw in their reasoning and I think that further changes need to ensue. I'm not calling for an identical cooldown to anything that the other classes offer, but something at least unique that we can bring to the table that gives raid leaders an incentive to make us a viable choice vs. another group that can do the same job as us.

[Peacemoon]

Ok I don't mean to quibble, but a +healing raidwide buff would actually be similar to a -raid damage buff, if there was a lot of raid healing being thrown. Guardian Spirit works in that way of course, as it is +40% healing on a single target + a cheat death proc.

Paladins are the only class that do raid wide -incoming damage to my knowledge. Whether Holy or Prot.

[Shadowsz]

Ok I don't mean to quibble, but a +healing raidwide buff would actually be similar to a -raid damage buff, if there was a lot of raid healing being thrown. Guardian Spirit works in that way of course, as it is +40% healing on a single target + a cheat death proc.

Paladins are the only class that do raid wide -incoming damage to my knowledge. Whether Holy or Prot.

there's a big difference in absorption effects and healing effects, my dear friend.

If developers do understand that Paladins and Priests are being brought over druids because of healing output AND utility, wouldn't you logically assume they would attempt to bring some sort of balance into play? From what we've seen so far, they feel that the imbalance lies in the numbers only. That alot of the spells need buffs or nerfs, cooldown reductions, and fundamental changes. However, even if this balances the numbers game, how will they attest for the fact that PW:B, AM, GS, PS will still provide more utility than anything a resto druid can uniquely bring? That's where I see the fundamental flaw in their reasoning and I think that further changes need to ensue. I'm not calling for an identical cooldown to anything that the other classes offer, but something at least unique that we can bring to the table that gives raid leaders an incentive to make us a viable choice vs. another group that can do the same job as us.

I do see what you're going at, that's not my problem at all. BUT, as you said, logically they would've done something about it already and that's why I'm thinking about what they could've come up with, of answers, to why they COULD have kept druids the way they are now.

[Peacemoon]

there's a big difference in absorption effects and healing effects, my dear friend.

Very true, but I can tell you now that Blizzard will not want to copy/paste other classes abilities to Druids. And to restrict it to Resto only would be to put it in our talent tree, and for that they would need to find a suitable candidate, which Tree Form is the likeliest one with its 31s duration/3min cooldown.

+10% healing to the raid for 30 seconds would add up, but I'm not married to the idea if you have a better suggestion, but thats why I suggested it as it seems something reasonable that Blizzard 'could' do.

[Myrrar]

As said, these are the problems for top of the line HM druids. My guild, only 1/2 way through 25HMs, take me, and another druid, and even a 3rd druid sometimes because we can. These fights are more about throughput and we can easily compete. The changes will be great for us, 10hm druids, and any casual guild healers.

The point is, a lot of the changes they're making, especially WG, aren't for us. They may help us start beating the pally priests instead of being right under them or make certain fights easier, but they did the changes mainly because druids, like Paragon, like Exodus, like the rest of the top 100 world trying to down these bosses aren't being taken.

And the point is, this change/buff isn't going to change that in any way.

[Nielah]

I'am still worried how restoration druids will work in arenas. We are fine against most physical compostions, but against spellcleaves with heavy offensive dispelling we're just getting peeled so hard. I thank god for finally making Devour a manual-use spell and that the cooldown is lowered, hopefully it'll make most warlocks that aren't smart enough to bind it into a common used spell, to stop using devour. :3

[Peacemoon]

To be honest, my bet is they are deciding what to do with these unique buffs. Because lets not forget, aura mastery, pain suppression, guardian spirit, power word: barier, mana tide totem... these are not freebie spells like innervate that we get, these are big stars in their respective talent trees. So changing them all is not a decision they would take light heartedly.

IMO they are more likely to buff our equivalent to those, Tree Form, with some form of raid wide buff. Seems like they are priming us with this by reducing its duration down from 40 seconds to 31. I say this, beause Tree Form while powerful is not a 'force multiplier', it only buffs us and it does the same whether we are in a 5 man dungeon or a 25 man raid.

[Jurik]

I do see what you're going at, that's not my problem at all. BUT, as you said, logically they would've done something about it already and that's why I'm thinking about what they could've come up with, of answers, to why they COULD have kept druids the way they are now.

It makes a lot of sense logically if you start assuming that Blizzard isn't particularly excellent at their own game. They are certainly nowhere near as good as bleeding edge progression guilds. They probably assume that higher throughput / better HPM is a major attraction to bringing druids, but, as everyone has been saying, that stops being the major concern once you start digging into heroic raiding.

We've had these threads before, and people have made lots of really solid suggestions for unique & interesting buffs, but it seems that Blizzard's ears are closed on this topic.

[Shadowsz]

It makes a lot of sense logically if you start assuming that Blizzard isn't particularly excellent at their own game. They are certainly nowhere near as good as bleeding edge progression guilds. They probably assume that higher throughput / better HPM is a major attraction to bringing druids, but, as everyone has been saying, that stops being the major concern once you start digging into heroic raiding.

We've had these threads before, and people have made lots of really solid suggestions for unique & interesting buffs, but it seems that Blizzard's ears are closed on this topic.

It's not like I haven't thought of that before, but it's hard for me to realize that they can run a game like this for 6+ years without loosing much on it. I'd have to say that they'd either be playing people hard psychologically or they're just plain stupid and lucky. I'm leaning more to the first option because it's hard to actually see if that's the case or not, because you cannot read peoples minds (afaik!)

[Mixtape]

It's not like I haven't thought of that before, but it's hard for me to realize that they can run a game like this for 6+ years without loosing much on it. I'd have to say that they'd either be playing people hard psychologically or they're just plain stupid and lucky. I'm leaning more to the first option because it's hard to actually see if that's the case or not, because you cannot read peoples minds (afaik!)

Some of it has to do with the actual game design itself. For a good period of time, there were abilities that specific classes brought that could effectively make these encounters easier. For example, using Grounding Totem on Heroic Valiona & Theralion could effectively cheese Blackout. Therefore, a raid would attempt to stack shamans to make this a heck of alot easier than grouping for Blackout. In these situations, you could make the argument to bring a resto shaman over a druid when looking at the classes outside of the usual Paladin/Priest setup.

[beingmused]

I think this line of reasoning is a little bit flawed.

Guilds pushing for bleeding edge progression kills, since they are lighter on gear than guilds that have taken months to get to that point in time and have farmed out every prior boss completely, are going to have to abuse every class mechanic they can get their hands on to scrape by. The lack of restos in world first kills might attest to that (although it probably has just as much to do, if not more, with lack of throughput). But that is not a very good standard by which to judge a class - MOST specs aren't taken into world first attempts, only the select few that work well with that encounter.

Whether or not it has special gimmicks to throw into the mix (and really, AM is useful for what? Red vial Maloriak, Shadow pulses of Cho'gall...anything else it really makes a dent on?), so long as Resto's healing capacity is being brought up, it will be perfectly viable for hard modes.

[Jurik]

AM is useful for any raid-wide magic damage that paladin resistance aura affects. For times when no resistance is needed, it can be used to double the armor given by the armor aura.

It is almost always hugely useful.