Vibrant Alchemist Stone - Alchemists Rejoice!

[Falaras]

Crit outweighs it by 0.7 EP, what's the point of this argument? The numbers weren't just made up out of thin air, it was with everything taken into consideration. No one ever said don't get haste past the first plateau, it just becomes less effective for DoT classes past that point UNTIL they can reach the second.

And those numbers have been proven to be false because of ignite munching making crit less useful. Not to mention different sims give different results and no one knows which one is right, the numbers EJ uses are just the simcraft results which COULD be right but aren't for sure. Haste becomes less useful after the 12.5% point, but is still more useful than Crit up until 15% (especially for trolls) and continues to be pretty close to crit in usefulness afterwards.

[Swizzle]

And those numbers have been proven to be false because of ignite munching making crit less useful. Not to mention different sims give different results and no one knows which one is right, the numbers EJ uses are just the simcraft results which COULD be right but aren't for sure. Haste becomes less useful after the 12.5% point, but is still more useful than Crit up until 15% (especially for trolls) and continues to be pretty close to crit in usefulness afterwards.

They haven't been proven false, they just said they COULD be wrong. It's not like this is the first time Ignite munching has eve been in the game. In any case, you're not going to be getting many of those DoTs to even have extra ticks if you don't have crit, so again: crit>haste. Can we just move on?

[Falaras]

They haven't been proven false, they just said they COULD be wrong. It's not like this is the first time Ignite munching has eve been in the game. In any case, you're not going to be getting many of those DoTs to even have extra ticks if you don't have crit, so again: crit>haste. Can we just move on?

Ignite Munching hasn't been a big problem before, so good job there. Not to mention no one is arguing that Crit isn't better than Haste, just that Haste isn't worthless past the soft cap. Honestly you just sound like you read EJ on the release of Cata and never bothered reading it again, shit changes. Not to mention I didn't know you had to crit to apply LB.

[Swizzle]

Ignite Munching hasn't been a big problem before, so good job there. Not to mention no one is arguing that Crit isn't better than Haste, just that Haste isn't worthless past the soft cap. Honestly you just sound like you read EJ on the release of Cata and never bothered reading it again, shit changes. Not to mention I didn't know you had to crit to apply LB.

NO ONE says haste is pointless past the first plateau, but the values given for it are AFTER reaching the first plateau, not prior. Haste is valued higher than Crit before the first plateau, but drops under it once you hit that mark. Haste is never useless, but much like Crit DRd at the end of WotLK, Haste begins to DR slightly once the Haste cap is met, since it doesn't give as much of a DPS gain as it used to...until you get close to 1400 haste from gear, where it picks up again.

Also, yes, Ignite munching has ALWAYS been a problem, in one shape or another. Hell, rolling Ignites were super awesome, and being the first Mage in a raid to crit was also super awesome, but it was still a problem. You're not discovering America here with your analysis, it's shit Mages worth their salt already know.

Lastly, out of the three DoTs a Mage has, two are applied via crit. 66.66% of your DoTs require you to crit, and only 33.33% don't. Hmmm, gear around 33.33% or 66.66%, tough call here.

PS: I don't read EJ, you must be new to these forums. I check by every once in a while to confirm my own math, but that's as far as it goes. Reaching Manly or Lhivera is pretty easy to do in game.

[Falaras]

NO ONE says haste is pointless past the first plateau, but the values given for it are AFTER reaching the first plateau, not prior. Haste is valued higher than Crit before the first plateau, but drops under it once you hit that mark. Haste is never useless, but much like Crit DRd at the end of WotLK, Haste begins to DR slightly once the Haste cap is met, since it doesn't give as much of a DPS gain as it used to...until you get close to 1400 haste from gear, where it picks up again.

Also, yes, Ignite munching has ALWAYS been a problem, in one shape or another. Hell, rolling Ignites were super awesome, and being the first Mage in a raid to crit was also super awesome, but it was still a problem. You're not discovering America here with your analysis, it's shit Mages worth their salt already know.

Lastly, out of the three DoTs a Mage has, two are applied via crit. 66.66% of your DoTs require you to crit, and only 33.33% don't. Hmmm, gear around 33.33% or 66.66%, tough call here.

PS: I don't read EJ, you must be new to these forums. I check by every once in a while to confirm my own math, but that's as far as it goes. Reaching Manly or Lhivera is pretty easy to do in game.

Really? No one said Haste was worthless eh? I wonder what the original post I commented on said:

Also haste as the equip bonus is worthless.

Hurr Durr.
Haste is looked down upon as a stat after getting to the "soft cap" whatever people think that is (depends on what you want to cap, what race you are, ect) when it really ISN'T a bad stat. You said it yourself, it's .7 lower than crit on the relative value list while crit is inflated due to no one knowing how to do the numbers on it at this time. Hell even the sim programs can't decide, with Rawr valueing haste ABOVE crit in most circumstances and simcraft barely puts it above haste while its broken.

Ignite Munching has been a problem before, but never of this magnitude. In fact in wrath it was almost a complete non issue because we would benefit from the extra ignites almost as much as the lost ignite damage.
By the way, not new to these forums. I have noticed that you are the resident joke in my time here, and it's completely obvious you don't read EJ so you didn't have to say it really.

[Hibbo]

Are you aware Swizzle that you are talking and defending DPS Stat Values (not EP) that are totally outdated from more then 1 month ago. Maybe you should also update your Link in your Guide to the new Simcraft Folder http://www.manoutoftime.org/misc/simc/ where Lhivera is posting his Sims.

Here is a summary of the actual DPS Stat Values

Live Server:
T11_359: Crit 1.2113, Haste 0.8498, Mastery 0.8566
T11_372: Crit 1.1677, Haste 0.9681, Mastery 0.8985

PTR/4.06:
T11_359: Crit 1.2179, Haste 0.8891, Mastery 1.0883
T11_372: Crit 1.3896, Haste 1.4677, Mastery 1.2287

[jasje]

Wernt we discussing à trinket here

[Deleted]

You forgot the rest of the quote "It is possible to diminish this effect by attempting to space spells out, but DoTs will make this form of munching inevitable.". They are talking about spacing spells out to avoid the old form of ignite munching, not living bomb eating your crits.

I said it was possible to mitigate some ignite munching. I never claimed it was possible to eliminate all of it.

Have fun on EJ.