Huge Reversal by Trion a month from "Rift" launch

[hailey]

Compromise imo, turn them into 15 mans

[Armaros]

With the 20 man size a couple of smaller 10 man guilds can just group up, unlike with the odd 25 man size.

[Dammagia]

No matter the excuse they made, the simple fact is managing two different raid sizes (plus pvp and 5 man dungeons) is hard work. It adds a whole new element of balance and potential mechanics abuse, and as mentioned trion does not yet have millions in monthly revenue to throw at these problems.

Good PR tries to make it sound like the game would benefit from having only large raids, but simple economics is the answer.

They admitted what Blizzard can't admit, you cannot balance 10m and 20m (25m) raiding to make it fair.

They have said there will be separate 10m content as well though, so that will be nice, and 10m guilds can tie up with other 10m guilds to do 20m like a lot of us did in WOTLK.

[Senaelanna]

10 and 25 man raid content of the same instances was a stupid idea in WoW anyway. There was no way that they were going to balance both, thus why the 10s offered worse gear and was for the most part faceroll compared to the 25 man raids. This wasn't entirely a bad thing, as casual carebears got to see content, and real players had harder difficulty instances to complete. Taking away all the super easy 10 mans is part of the reason why there's a huge outcry in the WoW community.

Good on the Rift devs for seeing that something doesn't work. Ditching 10 mans will allow them to (hopefully) focus on bigger and better things.

[melodramocracy]

I wouldn't suppose that dedicating almost zero beta time to end game mechanics would have anything to do with this.

Those forums are going to be a ragestorm of epic proportions about a month after the game is officially released, give or take..

[Dammagia]

I wouldn't suppose that dedicating almost zero beta time to end game mechanics would have anything to do with this.

Those forums are going to be a ragestorm of epic proportions about a month after the game is officially released, give or take..

No, because they are testing them on Alpha under an NDA.

[melodramocracy]

10 and 25 man raid content of the same instances was a stupid idea in WoW anyway. There was no way that they were going to balance both, thus why the 10s offered worse gear and was for the most part faceroll compared to the 25 man raids. This wasn't entirely a bad thing, as casual carebears got to see content, and real players had harder difficulty instances to complete. Taking away all the super easy 10 mans is part of the reason why there's a huge outcry in the WoW community.

Good on the Rift devs for seeing that something doesn't work. Ditching 10 mans will allow them to (hopefully) focus on bigger and better things.

25's can allow for a larger % of carried players than 10 man fights. I'm not sure, in general, where folks get the idea that 25's are across-the-board more difficult, because it's simply not the case.

Having only larger raid encounters offered = a smaller percentage of folks experiencing raid content. That's why Blizz has both, and frankly it's a good option to have.

---------- Post added 2011-02-08 at 03:17 PM ----------

No, because they are testing them on Alpha under an NDA.

Yeah, that's going to work out in spectacular fashion.

[Uselessrouge]

good move ....

making 10 and 20 player raids just suck

[Balz]

Where. is. my. SPIRIT LINK!? RAAAAAAAAAAGE!

[georgevonfranken]

Yeah, that's going to work out in spectacular fashion.

Have you played it? Have you noticed how small the amount of bugs is. You can thank the alpha players for that

[Dammagia]

25's can allow for a larger % of carried players than 10 man fights. I'm not sure, in general, where folks get the idea that 25's are across-the-board more difficult, because it's simply not the case.

Having only larger raid encounters offered = a smaller percentage of folks experiencing raid content. That's why Blizz has both, and frankly it's a good option to have.

---------- Post added 2011-02-08 at 03:17 PM ----------



Yeah, that's going to work out in spectacular fashion.

All the normal modes in Cata are easier 10 man, all the WOTLK content was easier 10m, one fight, S3D was harder 10m in level appropriate gear, and blizz has overtuned all the 10m heroics in cata.

The alpha testing is being done properly, it will be fine.

---------- Post added 2011-02-08 at 08:31 PM ----------

Have you played it? Have you noticed how small the amount of bugs is. You can thank the alpha players for that

Yet people say it is full of bugs and unstable, the mind boggles.

[Senaelanna]

25's can allow for a larger % of carried players than 10 man fights. I'm not sure, in general, where folks get the idea that 25's are across-the-board more difficult, because it's simply not the case.

Having only larger raid encounters offered = a smaller percentage of folks experiencing raid content. That's why Blizz has both, and frankly it's a good option to have.

---------- Post added 2011-02-08 at 03:17 PM ----------



Yeah, that's going to work out in spectacular fashion.

That's really not true at all, it depends on the tuning of the encounters. You could need 25 super skilled people to clear a fight, or you could need 20. If one dps dies on a 25 man hard mode that can be an instant wipe because you're not going to beat the enrage timer. The same thing applies for 10 mans, of course, but since 10 mans are inherently easier than 25s, it's all kind of a moot point. I'm not sure why you think that 10s are more difficult than 25s, because that's simply a fallacy.

If having a smaller % of people(by what amount, nobody knows) means that the larger raids get more attention, balancing, and all around TLC, then what everybody gets is a better product.

[Vaedryn]

Removal of 10 mans may not be the death of Rift raiding, but it certainly doesn't help it out much.

The reason 10s failed in WotLK was because the loot tables were different. It was Blizzard allowing you to see the content even if you didn't have the classic "giant raid" setting, basically the last gasp of inequality before cata (and let's be honest, TBC raid design was crap because they started you in 10s and then halfway through T4 gave you a giant middle finger telling you that you need to be a 25 man guild to complete the tier - that was NOT cool).

I personally enjoy 10 mans because as a raid leader, I'd rather herd 9 cats instead of 24. That's probably something I developed from being on smaller and more tight-knit servers where 10s are popular all across the board. Larger servers where everyone is replaceable might not have the same community we did on my realms, but they can always get 25 people together and go. That's the difference. I prefer the community, other people prefer e-peen. It's just life.

I also believe that in 10 man content, losing a single player is far more tragic than losing one in a 25. This means perfection is key. In 25 man, 20% of your raid can fail catastrophically and you'll still beat the berserk easily. In 10 man, you lose one player and you MIGHT kill the boss, but it's pretty much a wipe if it happens early.

I'd love to know how 10 mans are considered "detrimental" to guilds and communities in an MMO. If anything, the 10 mans have more solid bonds between players and we all know that it's your friends, not the content, that keeps you playing. That's the same reason nobody ever quits WoW - they would if all their friends did, but the majority of them stay, and they're the ones you come back for. Friends give you a reason, content gives you an excuse.

^^^^^^^^^^^

All of this.

[mordale]

All the normal modes in Cata are easier 10 man, all the WOTLK content was easier 10m, one fight, S3D was harder 10m in level appropriate gear, and blizz has overtuned all the 10m heroics in cata.

maybe you should look at things before comparing them.,
10mans in wotlk were the easier version and gave lesser rewards.
25mans in wotlk were the slightly harder version and gave better loot.
10mans and 25mans now are on the same lvl of rewards and generally the same difficulty, with certain fights being harder for 10man and others for 25(al'akir and nefarian being perfect examples).
this is why doing either 10man or 25man only is completely viable, however switching format for a boss who is more difficult on that version is rather frowned upon.

[Senaelanna]

^^^^^^^^^^^

All of this.

The herding cats part is true, the rest of his post is a fallacy =(.

[mordale]

The herding cats part is true, the rest of his post is a fallacy =(.

not really, if a single dps dies early in on most boss fights it can usually mean wipe in 10mans, whether by enrage timer,oom healers, or tank's cds going down before the add[s] is/are dead.


also to the question"how is 10mans badfor guilds?" they cause a division inmost guilds who have 10 better players and 10warm bodies,these 2groups split up and all the good players are put into one group and the others into anouther this will cause the secound group to fall behind as the first group will snipe out players from it when they need to fill a spot for their raid thus killing the 2nd group's raid.
in the end the 2 groups will end up tearing the guild apart.
unless both groups are good, they don't raid at the same time, have geared alts that can help the other group, and one half isn't warm bodies.

[moaradin]

arguing if 10man or 25man are harder is stupid, because they each have their advantages and disadvantages. 10mans can be hard because losing someone in a 10man is worse than losing 1 person in a 25man, but it can also be harder to lose someone in a 10man than a 25man. 10mans can be easier because in a fight where space is needed, less people is better.

25mans can be harder because its harder to manage 25 people than 10 people. They can also be harder because fitting 25 people in the same space as 10 people will always be harder to spread out 100% of the time.

I think 10mans are a poor excuse for a raid, because they aren't epic at all. 5 more people than a regular dungeon is too little, but thats my opinion and doesn't make them easier or not.

[Senaelanna]

not really, if a single dps dies early in on most boss fights it can usually mean wipe in 10mans, whether by enrage timer,oom healers, or tank's cds going down before the add[s] is/are dead.

Again, this depends on boss tuning, and is applicable to 25 man raids as well.

[Vulcanasm]

If I made a list of promised WoW features that never materialized (or were pulled/completely rehashed in the beta), it would fill many screens.

* The Paladin class was redesigned a week before the WoW beta ended. Blizzard literally had NO QA department at the time, meaning they launched a completely untested, entire class.
* The Hunter class was introduced six weeks before launch. That's why it felt like a kluge until the Hunter class review. It was.
* There was no WOTLK dance studio.
* There is no aerial vehicle combat in Wintergrasp. IT WAS ON THE LICH KING GAME BOX, in case you forgot.
* Neither Emerald Dream nor Maelstrom raids are in the game yet. They were advertised as being in Vanilla.
* Hero classes. Need I say more? All we got were Derp Knights and it took two expansions to poop them out.
* Where is Path of the Titans?
* The new talent system appeared very late in the Cataclysm beta, in fact about one month before Patch 4.0.

Should I go on?

You'll live.

[moaradin]

*Blizzard saying they wanted more FUN talent trees, and less cookie cutter in cataclysm. Instead, we got the complete opposite and nothing but cookie cutter and boring talent trees.