Fireball brainfreeze proc

[daydayhyphy]

currently using fireballs for brainfreeze shows a bigger dps increase. don't know why but it does. guessing glyph fireball and using it whenever bf procs whether u have fof or not. gonna try this out tomorow night

[Kuni Zyrekai]

currently using fireballs for brainfreeze shows a bigger dps increase. don't know why but it does. guessing glyph fireball and using it whenever bf procs whether u have fof or not. gonna try this out tomorow night

Simulates out to over 1000 DPS loss and goes against both design and logic. Average hits are in favour of FFB and you lose all benefit of mastery on fireball, making the crits for FFB higher as well as a better use of ignite with those harder crits.

[daydayhyphy]

im seeing over 1000 dps on sheets. mastery is not important anymore. it's all about stacking haste and crit and never missing a bf proc.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

im seeing over 1000 dps on sheets. mastery is not important anymore. it's all about stacking haste and crit and never missing a bf proc.

Just because we lost 6 mastery doesn't make it any less valuable than it was prior. It still scales the same and still provides a bonus on par with haste.

[daydayhyphy]

Just because we lost 6 mastery doesn't make it any less valuable than it was prior. It still scales the same and still provides a bonus on par with haste.

It actually does, EJ posted haste+crit provide a bigger dps gain than mastery thus making mastery unattractive.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

It actually does, EJ posted haste+crit provide a bigger dps gain than mastery thus making mastery unattractive.

For fire perhaps, there's been no update on the frost thread in days.

[daydayhyphy]

For fire perhaps, there's been no update on the frost thread in days.

It's actually been stated in all specs that mastery is the least beneficial stat.

---------- Post added 2011-02-09 at 09:48 AM ----------

But anyways I'm sticking to fb bf procs. been wacking at this dummy for an hour now and it's shown and proven more dps.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

It's actually been stated in all specs that mastery is the least beneficial stat.

Int SP Hit Crit Haste Mastery
Scale Factors 3.1265 2.3731 2.5698 0.9798 1.1147 1.1970

Just pulled from a simcraft BiS frost updated 4 hours ago.

---------- Post added 2011-02-09 at 01:51 AM ----------

But anyways I'm sticking to fb bf procs. been wacking at this dummy for an hour now and it's shown and proven more dps.

Alright, but don't go around telling other people bad info without hard evidence to back it up. Especially something as completely illogical as that.

[Deleted]

FFB > Fireball anytime

- You get a ticking dot
- You get a chance to proc FoF

[Hazariel]

Hey Kuni.

So you are saying the stat priority would be Int \ Hit \ Sp \ Mastery \ Haste \ Crit? We should not try to reach the soft crit cap anymore and reforge crit into mastery \ haste?

[Deleted]

Hey Kuni.

So you are saying the stat priority would be Int \ Hit \ Sp \ Mastery \ Haste \ Crit? We should not try to reach the soft crit cap anymore and reforge crit into mastery \ haste?

Check out his post again.
Int >SP > Hit > Crit (soft cap) > Haste > Mastery

[Hazariel]

Check out his post again.
Int >SP > Hit > Crit (soft cap) > Haste > Mastery

Did you check his latest post regarding value for every stat?
Crit = 0.9798
Haste = 1.1147
Mastery = 1.1970

You are referring to his post pre patch. Plus, his latest post doesn't mention anywhere the soft crit cap.

Basically, Mastery > Haste > Crit, based on his last post.

Kuni, can you confirm?

[Deleted]

Did you check his latest post regarding value for every stat?
Crit = 0.9798
Haste = 1.1147
Mastery = 1.1970

You are referring to his post pre patch. Plus, his latest post doesn't mention anywhere the soft crit cap.

Basically, Mastery > Haste > Crit, based on his last post.

Kuni, can you confirm?

I don't see the logic of how not being crit capped can give you better DPS performance.
I'd say that the crit stat he valued is after soft-cap. Before the patch, crit had a smaller value than it has now after the soft-cap. But since Frostbolt got buffed and since it's the only spell you're casting pre-FoF (unless you're using the "don't save a charge" rotation which adds FFB to the category), crit has become more valueable.

Although, Mastery being better than Haste sounds wierd. I believe they shared the same value pre-patch and once again, since Frostbolt got buffed with 15%, haste should take over?

[Hazariel]

I agree pretty much with all your argumentation, so I'm eager to get an answer on these values. One thing though. Mastery was slightly better than haste pre-patch, and even with the buff to Frosbolt (which account between 45-47% of our dps), it means 53-55%% of our damage is based on spells done on frozen targets, haste having no effects on them, hence why mastery would still be slighty better.

I always save a charge for FFB, so I don't list in it. Blizzard and FFO would be the only other spells I could think of.

And for OT, I agree with Auxiliadora. FFB > FB anytime.

[Deleted]

I agree pretty much with all your argumentation, so I'm eager to get an answer on these values. One thing though. Mastery was slightly better than haste pre-patch, and even with the buff to Frosbolt (which account between 45-47% of our dps), it means 53-55%% of our damage is based on spells done on frozen targets, haste having no effects on them, hence why mastery would still be slighty better.

I always save a charge for FFB, so I don't list in it. Blizzard and FFO would be the only other spells I could think of.

And for OT, I agree with Auxiliadora. FFB > FB anytime.

Although, the more crit you have after the soft cap, the more frostbolts will crit, granting more DPS from Frostbolt, unlike the spells that benefits from mastery, which has a 100% chance of critical after the soft-cap.

In other terms, incase mastery>haste is true, would that also count if you used the Frostbolt glyph?

I'd advice you to check this out as well: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-the-new-patch
Kuni did some testing and prooved that not holding a charge - which makes your rotation incredibly easier - is only a 500 DPS loss. Now, as I believe that the easy rotation is easy to perfect unlike the "holding a charge" one is, the easy rotation is probably creating more DPS than the hard one, because perfecting the hard rotation is close to impossible, if it isn't already when played by an actual human.

Now, let's say you went ahead and used the easy rotation.
- FFB would no longer create that many criticals as it used to do, making your overall damage with Frostbolt bigger than all your spells that benefits from mastery.
Why?
A non-critical FFB doesn't benefit from mastery, unless it's cast during FoF.

Conclusion: Haste > Mastery

E: Simulation craft is also using the 4th set bonus, making Frostbolt 10% faster. If you gain too much haste, your frostbolt will be faster than the global cooldown during Early Frost, granting a DPS loss. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with the haste values, Simulation Craft created.

[Hazariel]

In other terms, in case mastery>haste is true, would that also count if you used the Frostbolt glyph?

Even with the glyph, I'm not sure haste become more important, since you take off 6% crit (Molten Armor 2% x3) from spells benefiting from mastery to provide an extra 3% crit for FrB only (5% - 2%). So, not sure an extra 3% crit on Frb would be more dps than an extra 6% on other spells. (Sorry really bad English, I'm tired lol)

A non-critical FFB doesn't benefit from mastery, unless it's cast during FoF.

Actually, The only way FFB can benefits from Shatter is through FOF, since Shatter is x3 crit chance on frozen target and the frozen target is provided by FOF. Basically, using BF as soon as it pops would make you lose a LOT of chance to crit on it + the mastery bonus (easily 35%).

From my experience, FFB without FOF crits for about 26-30k, while with FOF, it crits for about 35-40k. Plus, having your Frb do more % of your overall damage only means your other damage sources are lower. Overall, I dont think you can say haste > mastery based on that fact.

Again, I don't think we can say casting a Frb while being faster than the GCD is a dps loss, cause any spell spell you cast generates a GCD and the best example for it are instant spells. You basically wait a whole GCD doing nothing after casting an instant spell versus waiting GCD - 0,9 sec (example). Casting a spell at 0.9 sec versus casting a spell at 1 sec while the GCD is 1 sec doesn't change anything. At least, i think it doesn't.

I'll have to try out a lot more test on the dummies with more haste or more mastery and see what seems better. Same with Glyph of Frb versus Glyph or MA.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Those values were with the BiS set. I was using it mostly to show the fact that mastery is very slightly better than haste, although that setup isn't quite crit capped for anything other than ice lance due to tier bonus. Of interest, the values of mastery and haste will trade places seemingly at random, so it's best to keep them fairly close together in rating. So seemingly int > SP > hit > ice lance T11 crit cap > mastery >= haste >= more crit to FFB/DF crit cap > more crit further than that

As said above, I did some simulations on various play styles involving using BF as it comes up instead of waiting for FoF or holding FoF for it in another thread. I really should check the comparisons of haste vs mastery for using BF as it comes though. I'll post results of that soon.

---------- Post added 2011-02-09 at 02:59 PM ----------

Indeed haste is better than mastery when firing FFB BFs as they come to you. 1.13 to 1.09

[Deleted]

Even with the glyph, I'm not sure haste become more important, since you take off 6% crit (Molten Armor 2% x3) from spells benefiting from mastery to provide an extra 3% crit for FrB only (5% - 2%). So, not sure an extra 3% crit on Frb would be more dps than an extra 6% on other spells. (Sorry really bad English, I'm tired lol)

You wouldn't use the Frostbolt Glyph before hitting the soft-critcap anyway, so your argument is invalid m8!
Incase you still don't follow me, crit becomes useless after the soft-critcap for any abilities that benefits from mastery. So the question still stands - would 5% more critical to frostbolt (+ the 4th set bonus) make Frostbolt give more damage than all other spells that benefits from mastery combined? Incase that's true, haste > mastery.

Actually, The only way FFB can benefits from Shatter is through FOF, since Shatter is x3 crit chance on frozen target and the frozen target is provided by FOF. Basically, using BF as soon as it pops would make you lose a LOT of chance to crit on it + the mastery bonus (easily 35%).

From my experience, FFB without FOF crits for about 26-30k, while with FOF, it crits for about 35-40k. Plus, having your Frb do more % of your overall damage only means your other damage sources are lower. Overall, I dont think you can say haste > mastery based on that fact.

Again, I don't think we can say casting a Frb while being faster than the GCD is a dps loss, cause any spell spell you cast generates a GCD and the best example for it are instant spells. You basically wait a whole GCD doing nothing after casting an instant spell versus waiting GCD - 0,9 sec (example). Casting a spell at 0.9 sec versus casting a spell at 1 sec while the GCD is 1 sec doesn't change anything. At least, i think it doesn't.

I'll have to try out a lot more test on the dummies with more haste or more mastery and see what seems better. Same with Glyph of Frb versus Glyph or MA.

The problem about only using FFB during FOF proc is that it happens a lot that the BF proc gets reapplied (munched), because you didn't get a FOF proc in time. Ontop of that, the 1 charge of FOF proc you'd normally use on FFB is spent on Ice Lance instead, which is about 20k damage. 20k dmg + a non critical FFB is about 30k damage. Yes, it's lower than a FFB crit (especially because that would grant Ignite), but you wont ever lose a BF proc. That being said, the mastery bonus is now 17% (with my stats, which is 7.16 mastery) and FFB still has a chance to crit without FOF (actualy 33,34% or more if softcapped) which is every 3rd FFB.

Whatsoever, the fact that FFB doesn't benefit from Mastery wether it's a crit or not without FOF, only makes my argument even more valid. Why? Cause it's going to create even less damage in total from spells that benefits from mastery IF you use the easy rotation which is the one I'm talking about.

Kuni's testing is based on the hard rotation that nobody can perfect. I'm sure that if he did test out the easy rotation, you'd see different values.

Also, on a whole fight, 0.1 seconds means something. Every 10th Frostbolt created is 1 whole second lost. So yes, that does have something to do with haste value AFTER hitting a specific amount of haste. My question however, was wether or not Simulations Craft is taking that into notice.

So, based on what's in this topic I assume that the crit value Kuni posted is after the softcap & that the mastery and haste values are based on the hard rotation.

Hazariel, if you're going to do some testing, please try and get the following stats before you do so:
33,34% crit
Use Mage Armor
Use Frostbolt Glyph

When that's done, go all out on haste. (easy rotation).
When that's done, go all out on mastery. (easy rotation).

When that's done, go all out on mastery. (hard rotation).
When that's done, go all out on haste. (hard rotation).

I'd 100% positive that haste is better than mastery on the easy rotation and that mastery is better than haste on the hard rotation. I'm also 100% positive that you'll be doing more DPS with the easy rotation than with the hard rotation. Now, incase I'm not true, I'd like to see you manage more DPS with the hard rotation than with the easy rotation on an actual raid encounter that requires just a little bit of movement and raid awareness.

I'm going to link you a post I wrote on the EU WoW forums, so you can see how both of the rotations are created. (Keep in mind that both of them are the best possible to use as a Frost).

"The following values are the ones a frost mage should aim for:
Intellect > Hit > Crit (until soft cap) > Haste > Mastery > Crit (after soft cap).

The talents we used pre-patch still counts (2/3 NWP & 3/3 Ignite).

The nerfs we got are a 35% damage reduction on Deep Freeze & 15% damage reduction on Frostfire Bolt (when it crits through FoF).

According to simulation craft, our DPS is roughly the same as before.
Why?
We're now using a new meta gem, that increases our critical damage with 3%.
We're now using a 50 Intellect enchant on our bracers (although, the 100 Intellect enchant on off-hand got reduced to 40, so that's actually a nerf on 10 Intellect).
Frostbolt does 15% more damage and that's a huge benefit once you reach the 4th set bonus. (although, before you reach this 4th set bonus, our DPS has been nerfed quite a bit).

Our rotation has changed a little and you basically got 2 x rotations you can use, to keep the best DPS possible as frost.

The easy rotation which is also a lot easier to perfect:
(using this rotation, makes haste better than mastery).
(except for your regular priority system).
- Spam FFB everytime you get the BF proc, regardless of FoF or not.
- Save Freeze for Deep Freeze like you're doing already.

The easy rotation wont ever make you lose a BF proc or a FoF proc, nor would you ever have to worry about the durations of any of the procs. This is good because it will give you much more focus on the actual rotation and the raid encounter you're against.

The hard rotation, which is also a lot harder to perfect:
(using this rotation, makes mastery better than haste).
(except for your regular priority system).
- Cast Freeze everytime it's off CD.
- Save 1 charge for Deep Freeze (if the duration is longer than the actual remaining CD of Deep Freeze).
- Only cast FFB during BF proc & if FoF is up, unless it's duration is about to expire. The only time you shouldn't spend your last charge on FFB, is if your Deep Freeze or Freeze is on a lower cooldown than the actual remaining duration of FoF.
- Cast Ice Lance if you have FoF with 2 charges. If your Freeze is coming off CD, use all of your FOF charges the second Freeze becomes ready. If there's 1 second left on the duration of FoF and DF is still on cooldown & no BF proc, burn your charge with Ice Lance.

The hard rotation will make you worry about a bunch of stuff and even minor failures can make this rotation a huge DPS loss. You're gonna have to worry about durations and when to actualy use every proc you've got on a perfect timing. Ontop of that, you've got cooldowns to look after and calculate very fast to make you perform at your very best. And to make it even worse, you risk FoF-munchings & a MS from 50 and up which will also cause DPS loss.

Unless you can play like a machine or create a script that will do everything for you, this rotation is close to impossible to perfect. The easy rotation WILL out-dps the hard one, if you cannot perfect it.

The difference between the easy rotation & the hard rotation, is between 0-500 DPS according to Simulations Craft.

The glyphs & the talents remains the same for both rotations.
- FFB Glyph.
- Deep Freeze Glyph.
- Frostbolt Glyph / Molten Armor Glyph.

If you're crit capped without Molten Armor in raids (23,34% + 5% crit buff + 5% crit debuff on target), use Mage Armor and go with Frostbolt Glyph.
If you're not crit capped without Molten Armor and you only need 3% crit or less from Molten Armor to be so, use Frostbolt Glyph and use Molten Armor instead of Mage Armor.
If you're not crit capped without Molten Armor and you need 5% crit (more or less), from Molten Armor to be so, use Molten Armor glyph and use Molten Armor instead of Mage Armor."

Good luck mate!

By the way... Kuni, I'd really like you to give us some input on your tests! =)

---------- Post added 2011-02-10 at 12:41 AM ----------

Indeed haste is better than mastery when firing FFB BFs as they come to you. 1.13 to 1.09

What do you mean with those numbers though?

[Kuni Zyrekai]

What do you mean with those numbers though?

DPS gain per single point increase of that stat.

[Deleted]

DPS gain per single point increase of that stat.

Now I'm confused though! =(
Is he saying that it's still a DPS loss when stacking haste instead of mastery with the easy rotation? Or was that the numbers from mastery?

E: nvm