How to deal with Bads in your guild?

[Kazlehoff]

Tell them this isnt WOLK anymore, they need to step up or step out. you are not carrying people.

then offer to help them improve.

[McCheese]

I'd say it comes down to the attitude of the players in question. Are they willing to put in the effort to learn/improve? That is key i think. Wow is not a hard game; inexperienced people can easily become competent with a little direction and help. If they aren't willing to put in the effort, they are basically disrespecting the 9/24 other people in the raid who have put forth the effort.

[Damnitbobby]

Raids are not about who's friends with who or who is most popular. Raids consume alot of time of those who are in it. And to bring people who are too casual or too lazy to take the time like others have and learn their class and raid mechanics is really a slap in the face to those who have. Take these social butterfly's and sit them down. Set the law for them as it applies to everyone in guild. When i was a guild leader and also raid leader i would do a guild meeting in vent. I would set down what i exspected of everyone in the raid groups. I told them it was about pregression not who is friends with who. It was never personal. I as a raid leader don't want to waste the time of those who i was leading. Bringing people who were not ready for that content was not fair to those who were and put the effort forth every week. If your trade trolling social butterfly's can't change their ways and make progress towards getting ready for raiding then tell them flat out how they have not improved and why they are not getting invited till they do. Guilds are supposed to be a social network but people need to learn when it comes to raid time its ALL buisness nothing personal.

If you have a guild site i suggest researching helpful sites for people to go to and then post them on permanent forum pages. They can't say no one told them when the info is easily accessed and researched. Also asking guildies of specific classes if they know of great class sites other than EJ can help too. Good luck to you and to your issue.

[rzy]

Right so i was leader of a PvP guild AGES ago and the requirement was 1800 rating / 1750 achievment, if people were lacking was a Gkick until they improved with proof, as they knew the requirements.

Requirements - do you have any for your current raid team, if not make some and dont be nice about it, if raiding is something you want to progress in and you have someone who is dead weight dont take them until they l2p, sure its a bit harsh but if that person REALLY wants to raid with their friends/guild they will find ways to improve.

hope i helped xD

[Deleted]

Hello,

Before I say anything, our guilds main focus is a social environment and raids are on the back burner so I am not looking for an answer of, "just kick them"

with that being said I am the Raid Leader in my current guild and I am trying to form our raiding group so we can start Cata raiding but we have a couple of individuals that just aren't the raiding material....lets be honest....they aren't wow material other then sitting and trolling trade. This doesn't change the fact that, for the most part, they are great people. This is where my problem comes in, They want to raid/run heroics with the guild. Does anyone out there have any idea how I can bypass these people to progress our raiding without them feeling bypassed?

Be honest, they are not pulling their weight in the raid and you'll replace them. You don't be a dick about it, but clearly voice what the problem is. And offer help to improve them. You can tell a lot about a person by the way they handle criticism*. If they can't handle it they are not the people i want to spent time with, in WoW or real life.

* Criticism is not "YOU SUCK!", it's stating the problem and why this is a problem. For example: "Your gear is not ready for raiding yet. Raids are thougher then they were in WotLK and we need every member to be geared to be able to make any progress"

[Marxman]

If a player is bad, the only 2 options are to either coach them, send them to EJ and other areas to learn more and get better, or just flat out tell them they're bad and hope they have the guts to accept it and move on. Approach them and tell them you need them to really push their DPS/healing/aggro/whatever and do their best to stay alive. If they continue to be terrible, then you sit them and ask them to practice and read more. If they continue being terrible, then just kick them. Good person or not, if someone is dragging you down, they gots to go!

[Cepheid]

Whatever you do.. Dont Be an elitist! So many haters on WOW.. I mean i know that most fo the WOW population consists of "geeks" who were picked on and put down in high school or whatever.. But sometimes you just have to confront your issues and be polite. There are certain guilds (cough** SiNS **cough) on my server that are filled with elitist haters that have some serious pre-existing issues.. treat people w/ respect just as if you were talking to them in person..

[Spondoo]

Set some ground rules and standards. DPS need to pull X AND NOT DIE or gtfo. Heals is harder to monitor you just have to really group with them to determine good heals from shit heals. And tanking is just hard to fuck up, basically if they're geared and they can hold threat.

[walkingbeef]

Considering what your guild is about. First: stop being arrogant. Second: work with them. Offer resources. They are, of course, your guildies. they are the warm body, the backup person when all other resources are burned out.

I dont call a single one of my "terrible" people in the guild - "badie". I instead say, they are playing the game at the level they want to. So if they want to raid, then I help with those resources. If they choose not to take them, then they dont get a primary spot.

Thinking or calling people as bad, or in a negative light is just poor people management. I'd consider a different tactic if a raid leader or officer. There will ALWAYS be levels of performance in a guild, elite or casual (and everything in-btween).

First of all, no where in my post did i call them a bad, I put that in the title to peak interest so i could get views for replies, agree or disagree that is fine. One point i think a lot of people including yourself are missing, which i probably didn't do so great a job at explaining, is the fact the main kid has some serious social issues. He is deaf and doesn't understand how most people interact. He is a great kid, but if i tell him, in the best and most politically correct way possible, that he is not good enough in virtually every aspect of the game and will not be able to raid with us, it will suck the entire fun out of the game for him. I do not want this to happen. So by making this post, even if misunderstood and poorly explained, i believe is a very good officer thing.

[wondershwonsen]

if theres no way to tutor those "baddies" into being bettermaybe you should run some lower tier raids just for fun to not make them feel excluded.
you can raid tbc or wotlk raids with them just for the fun of it and bring those more skilled players to your progression raids.
later, with better gear, when bosses are on solid farm, you can bring those less skilled players in.
that way itll be easier to pull them through the first bosses of cata raids.

[ciggy]

Considering what your guild is about. First: stop being arrogant. Second: work with them. Offer resources. They are, of course, your guildies. they are the warm body, the backup person when all other resources are burned out.

I dont call a single one of my "terrible" people in the guild - "badie". I instead say, they are playing the game at the level they want to. So if they want to raid, then I help with those resources. If they choose not to take them, then they dont get a primary spot.

Thinking or calling people as bad, or in a negative light is just poor people management. I'd consider a different tactic if a raid leader or officer. There will ALWAYS be levels of performance in a guild, elite or casual (and everything in-btween).

You are dead on sir. OP, you really are coming off as an arrogant prick. Sort yourself out and offer them help, They are GUILD MATES not randoms you pick up in trade. Treat your folks well and they will treat you well. I run a guild myself, I pick Solid raid leaders, and they deal with everyone fairly or they get dropped to a raider status and I promote someone else. Just treat them like friends, and offer to help em.

[Roasty]

He is deaf and doesn't understand how most people interact. He is a great kid, but if i tell him, in the best and most politically correct way possible, that he is not good enough in virtually every aspect of the game and will not be able to raid with us, it will suck the entire fun out of the game for him.

You had me right up until you used his deafness as a setback. I can't think back to an encounter where I would have failed if I had the sound turned off. Sure, it helps, but with proper warning add-on (DBM and others) plus a few extra minutes of raid chat fight explanation and internet research on the fights, I can see how it is completely possible to do everything in the game with the sound muted. If you need to announce something over vent, as may be your style, and are worried that this player can't hear it, Make a macro with the warning for him and announce it as a raid warning. So while he may not be a good player for other reasons such as his attention to events actually taking place, blaming it strictly on his being deaf is a bit of a cop out in my book.

[Ruak]

Ehm... I've been raiding for the whole TBC with my WinAmp on, the only times I've played with game sound switched on was during the first week of every expansion, to hear the new music and voices during questing, all the other times I'm using WinAmp, even if I'm on vent (just winamp volume is lowered), and sometimes even stay out of the raiding channel if I know that the raid leader won't have a specific taks for me during that encounter, just so that I can chill out on a music background instead of vent voices. Being deaf itself is awful But being deaf has close to 0 impact on the game and on your performance....

[Maelle]

I'd say it comes down to the attitude of the players in question. Are they willing to put in the effort to learn/improve? That is key i think. Wow is not a hard game; inexperienced people can easily become competent with a little direction and help. If they aren't willing to put in the effort, they are basically disrespecting the 9/24 other people in the raid who have put forth the effort.

This is kind of the key thing, it's not whether someone who currently does not play well can or can't learn to do so, it's whether they really *want* to enough.

I have been friends in game with some really nice people who I have bent over backwards to help in their playstyle and to improve their dps and gear choices, just for it to end with them basically saying "meh, I just don't care that much". As much as this is a little fustrating for me, I guess some people can't improve because they don't really care that they are not a very good dps/healer. Now whether or not you would take these people to raids depends entirely on what kind of progress you want to acheive and how much effort is expected inside your own guild.

[Seriss]

The first difficulty you're facing is getting it across that raids are in fact difficult. More difficult than in WotLK, and even then, ICC turned into a wipefest if people didn't fulfill minimum requirements in regards to movement, dps and heal skills.

If your friends understand that, great.

Effort is the most important thing when raiding. People need to be willing to work. Yes, I know... work... but it's a game, etc. Still, if you want success, you'll have to work for it, even in a game.

So if people really WANT to raid, they're probably also willing to put up some effort. And they'll be open for suggestions and receptive to help offers. If there are any issues, you'll have to find ways to work around them.

In regards to the deaf guy you're playing with, why not suggest that he create visual alerts for boss abilities? A good buff-frame addon can be modified so that it places dangerous debuffs in a prominent place of your choice. Power auras will make symbols or words glow above and around your character when affected by something bad. It just needs to be properly set up. Very simple really. If you don't have sound, make it a visual effect

[Daedelus]

You had me right up until you used his deafness as a setback. I can't think back to an encounter where I would have failed if I had the sound turned off.

Hey, if Atramedes can do it, this guy should be able to aswell

Game sounds you don't need I agree but not being able to interact on Ventrilo would be a hindrance. HOWEVER, I heard that Ensidia used to (still do?) raid without Ventrilo. Obviously they are all impeccable players who know their roles without having to be told, but it goes to show that with the right sort of communication in raid chat you can accomplish anything.

To the OP: I really admire your attitude which is to say - you are doing your utmost to make the game fun for everybody concerned and at the end of the day that's what it's all about.

Remember as raid leader you have a lot of tools available to make things easier - raid announcements that you can make macros for, raid markers that you can place on mobs or those 'pillars of light' things you can place round the room. Also you could make macros that do raid warnings and also send a /w to this particular guy.

As long as you can get 8 people in your raids who are pretty good you should be able to 'carry' a couple at least on 8/12 bosses and the more they experience the better they should get.

Best of luck getting things rolling - and when you do the satisfaction from doing so will be more than worth it.

[Megakebabz]

what about running some hc's with them and get them on the lvl? maybe they just haven't done much hc's / raids yet and their just new to it. maybe you can help them be better. and if that isn't the case then you have to be honest mate

[walkingbeef]

You had me right up until you used his deafness as a setback.

Okay, let me try this again, its not the fact that he is deaf that is the problem, I know you can play this game without sound and be great at it. Its the second part of the sentence, "doesn't understand how most people interact" I am still trying to show the kid some respect while maintaining a reasonable expectation of explanation, but here we go.

He plays a hunter as his main. I spent probably 8 hours of time over probably 3 days trying to help him out with learning and gearing. He is gemmed wrong, doesn't have anything reforged, and doesn't use the abilities of his class. I explained in detail, making sure to stop and ask if he was understanding, and how to do these things, and no not all at one time, we took it slow. I will take the hunter priority system for a rotation, tried to keep it simple for him but to be doing a rotation, about a day later, he had forgotten everything we had talked about, and all he does is use steady shot. When i say forgotten i dont mean, "oh yea sorry i remember now" its forgotten, "i remember talking, but wasn't it about the superbowl".

Guys, i understand how some of you are taking the post, and I understand the a part of the online community just wants to criticize, but you have to believe me, I have always treated this kid with respect, I am still trying to in the course of this thread, I am not trying be an elitist, I don't mind spending my time to allow someone a chance to learn and get better (ask my guildies, how do you think i got to this position), But here it is, I made this post because i have already come to the fact that raiding and to a certain extent heroics are too high a skill level for this individual and because of disabilities (not just being deaf, what i explained earlier, i believe he has other issues but i am no doctor and I am not going to ask someone about that) thats probably where he is going to stay. My problem occurs that he is on all the time and I can't organize a Raid or a heroic to gear 2 or 3 of our potential raiders without him wanting to come along. I dont want to hurt his feelings, and believe me, any form of "you can't come", no matter how much its prettied up, will hurt his feelings.

I do like some of the suggestions here, like do some old school raids, to which i have planned an ICC run.

I have set up raid rules, which are actually fairly liberal which i will implement across the board, and if this individual can meet them, i will not hesitate to bring him.

I think on some of my heroic nights, i will also set up Reg runs since they offer JP now, so this way he can def go with that group and still feel included.

Thank you to all that have understood the concept of what i am trying to achieve here and have not been hung up on the little mis-explanations and my "perceived appearance." I hate the fact that words don't portray feelings, emotion, and tone to allow greater understanding.

[Roasty]

Okay, let me try this again, its not the fact that he is deaf that is the problem, I know you can play this game without sound and be great at it. Its the second part of the sentence, "doesn't understand how most people interact" I am still trying to show the kid some respect while maintaining a reasonable expectation of explanation, but here we go.

He plays a hunter as his main. I spent probably 8 hours of time over probably 3 days trying to help him out with learning and gearing. He is gemmed wrong, doesn't have anything reforged, and doesn't use the abilities of his class. I explained in detail, making sure to stop and ask if he was understanding, and how to do these things, and no not all at one time, we took it slow. I will take the hunter priority system for a rotation, tried to keep it simple for him but to be doing a rotation, about a day later, he had forgotten everything we had talked about, and all he does is use steady shot. When i say forgotten i dont mean, "oh yea sorry i remember now" its forgotten, "i remember talking, but wasn't it about the superbowl".

Guys, i understand how some of you are taking the post, and I understand the a part of the online community just wants to criticize, but you have to believe me, I have always treated this kid with respect, I am still trying to in the course of this thread, I am not trying be an elitist, I don't mind spending my time to allow someone a chance to learn and get better (ask my guildies, how do you think i got to this position), But here it is, I made this post because i have already come to the fact that raiding and to a certain extent heroics are too high a skill level for this individual and because of disabilities (not just being deaf, what i explained earlier, i believe he has other issues but i am no doctor and I am not going to ask someone about that) thats probably where he is going to stay.

------------------------------------------

Thank you to all that have understood the concept of what i am trying to achieve here and have not been hung up on the little mis-explanations and my "perceived appearance." I hate the fact that words don't portray feelings, emotion, and tone to allow greater understanding.

And I think you misunderstood me also. As I stated, I am in favor of your desire to help this player, and added a few suggestions about how to help that I had not seen from other posters. I am just saying that the reason you think, and in your post where you first mention his deafness you did in fact say you believed he has some additional roadblocks to understanding the lessons, he is not learning shouldn't be used as reason to not try and teach him more.

If he is having trouble remembering from day to day I suggest having him make up post-it notes with hunter rotation and have him affix it to his monitor. If he is having problems meeting certain DPS numbers, explain to him why he can't raid from the pure mathematical side of it. It may take repetition to get him to understand, or it may take a change in teaching technique.

So, again, everything you want to do is noble in my book; mentioning his deafness at all just, to me, takes all validity of your points and tarnishes them. I hope this goes to show that my "perceived appearance" is just that you should be more careful when explaining why, because making an argument to me is one thing, but if you have to put your foot down on the issue and tell him exactly why he can't raid, mentioning those other issues to him is not going to go well, making it all about his actual character play will.

[Milkmoney]

bring them to one raid. if they live up to the standards you have given them, then you can actually have proof of the areas they need to improve on via some type of meter (healing, dps, dmg taken, deaths... etc.). that way, they cant deny what you say about them and you can offer the help they actually need. if they don't take help, then you can have a solid reason to not bring them. and hopefully no animosity. on the other hand, you might be surprised with their performance and you made an issue out of nothing.