1. #1

    Sprists and hit capped

    For max dps, is hit capped required these days? If not, what level of hit cap vs. other stats is prefeered?

    On a side note, mastery > crit?

    Ain Emerald Dream
    Ain @ Emerald Dream

  2. #2
    This is a similar question to one I just tackled over on HowToPriest.com, so excuse the blatant cut'n'paste (for those who frequent both boards).

    Based on the PP numbers for 4.0.6 that I'm using for my BiS lists, mastery is a tiny bit better. The current PP values of mastery/crit are so close that you could consider them to be within an acceptable statistical error, making them roughly equal in PP value.

    In a new release of Simucraft that New has been playing with, Crit is showing signs of being slightly better than Mastery at high ilvls, but, the two are tied together such that a crit heavy gear comp will do less DPS than a crit/mastery balanced comp.

  3. #3
    For the hit cap part of the question I would say, it is ok to be a little bit under hit cap. How much you can trade out depends on how well you can react if one of your dots miss... So that is a bit of a judgment call on your part. I personally try to stay between 15.5% and 17% , but like I said for me it is just from playing around and what you are comfortable with.

  4. #4
    The Patient Pythagoreant's Avatar
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    Based on my current gear level (351 ilvl, 14.88% haste without darkness/mind q, 13.81% crit, 4478 int), simulationcraft values hit as the very lowest stat, about half as high as mastery and crit.

    The only time it will really affect you is when mind blast misses if it causes Empowered Shadows to fall off. So if RNG is unkind to you, it could screw you over, but it is not worth gemming/reforging/gearing for hit cap at all.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Pythagoreant View Post
    Based on my current gear level (351 ilvl, 14.88% haste without darkness/mind q, 13.81% crit, 4478 int), simulationcraft values hit as the very lowest stat, about half as high as mastery and crit.

    The only time it will really affect you is when mind blast misses if it causes Empowered Shadows to fall off. So if RNG is unkind to you, it could screw you over, but it is not worth gemming/reforging/gearing for hit cap at all.
    New did some computations (in the comments of his guide or another thread here on MMO) a few weeks back. The difference between Simucraft and real world is twofold: 1) latency, and 2) reaction time. New found a slight DPS loss in not being hitcapped for these two reasons. Simucraft queues up spells to be simulated instantly (0ms latency, 0ms reaction time), where as both are real factors for a person playing their character, I.E.: even the best players have a bit of reaction time lag when the refreshing of a DoT misses and they have to recast it. In short, TL;DR: get hit capped.

  6. #6
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythagoreant View Post
    The only time it will really affect you is when mind blast misses if it causes Empowered Shadows to fall off. So if RNG is unkind to you, it could screw you over, but it is not worth gemming/reforging/gearing for hit cap at all.
    If you cast Mind Blast with an Orb up, you consume that orb, period. Consuming an orb will always give you Empowered Shadows.

    Even if you miss with MB, as long as you had an orb up, you get Empowered Shadows.
    {[( )]}

  7. #7
    i dont really care what simcrafts say, being as close to hit cap is crucial imo.

    i push the limits of leaving my VT on as long as possible before refreshing, and if i miss my VT application and it drops off thats a big loss

  8. #8
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    I've ran hitcapped everytime up until tonite, where I ran 16.66% and I missed one VT doing BWD (Mag, Omnitron, Maloriak, Atremedes) and Halfus Valiona/Theralion in BoT. I got me a new headpiece tonite which makes made me lose even more hit, so I did 3 OOM tests on boss dummy and missed one DP at 16.32 hit%. I wouldn't go lower than 16% but for now it's alright.

    I've been an advocate for the hitcap but losing too much from the primary DPS stats (haste nom nom) isn't my cup of tea, and it's hard to judge how much was lost, DPS wise, considering the major buffs we got in patch I topped the fights anyway.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Pythagoreant View Post
    Based on my current gear level (351 ilvl, 14.88% haste without darkness/mind q, 13.81% crit, 4478 int), simulationcraft values hit as the very lowest stat, about half as high as mastery and crit.

    The only time it will really affect you is when mind blast misses if it causes Empowered Shadows to fall off. So if RNG is unkind to you, it could screw you over, but it is not worth gemming/reforging/gearing for hit cap at all.
    If MB misses ES still procs.

    ---------- Post added 2011-02-10 at 03:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by slimatic View Post
    i dont really care what simcrafts say, being as close to hit cap is crucial imo.

    i push the limits of leaving my VT on as long as possible before refreshing, and if i miss my VT application and it drops off thats a big loss
    That is not evidence to suggest hit is a higher dps stat than simcraft values it. The point is according to simcraft simulations, the dps you gain from using the iLvl from hit into another stat such as haste, crit or mastery will end up doing more damage than the occasional missed spell (including VT) that requires recasting.

    I think some valid arguments would sorround complexity (particular when multi dotting), DPM in encounters that push your mana bar (magmaw springs to mind) and reaction ability. However you can even simulate different reaction times to missed spells.

    In 4.0.3 I was an advocate for hit because I didn't feel (from 359 simcraft testing) that hit was all that worse off than crit and it was ahead of mastery. However in the new build simcraft is really devaluing hit and I think that has a lot to do with the mastery buff which is adding more and more damage from our DoT sources which at this stage are not that penalised from misses.

    Hit traditionally helps with nuke DPS, and while we have had MB buffed it is still not cast often enough for Hit to be a good enough stat over the other secondary stats.

    So I plan to try being under the hit cap and see how it feels, ultimately priests are going to have to see how not being hit capped feels and see if their playstyle can accomodate it.

  10. #10
    Hrmm.. a very noobish question.

    Im game says 0,04% something to miss - and wow-europe.com states that i got 11,4% hit (im a draenei).. how can that be? Not taking into account spirit on the website, or am i misleading myself?
    Ain @ Emerald Dream

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ain View Post
    Hrmm.. a very noobish question.

    Im game says 0,04% something to miss - and wow-europe.com states that i got 11,4% hit (im a draenei).. how can that be? Not taking into account spirit on the website, or am i misleading myself?
    Hmm, just check your char on battle net.

    Why are you changing hit into spirit? Rather pointless, but gives you the same hit rating, but spirit provides out of mana regen where hit doesn't.
    Why are you changing haste into mastery on your offhand?
    Why are you changing stats (crit and hit/spirit) into mastery on items where you don't have any haste rating?

    Haste is the highest valued stat after int (not counting sp) and if you can reforge to haste, not away from it.
    Personally I don't see why you go for mastery (unless it is just to try it out, in which case just ignor my intire post) After I have made sure to get haste on all items possible I preffer to go for abit of spirit, in order to slowly get to the hit cap, and now where MB has had it's buff, it might hurt you bad to miss a few to many crits ^^
    It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.

  12. #12
    uh.. where did i change hit into spirit? I assume you mean the other way arround.

    Ill take a look at my reforging

    Forging more spirit (crit to spirit) where haste is not an option.

    /Ain
    Ain @ Emerald Dream

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ain View Post
    uh.. where did i change hit into spirit? I assume you mean the other way arround.
    Yeah sorry, spirit to hit ^^
    It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrus View Post
    Yeah sorry, spirit to hit ^^
    Just did a review of my reforging.

    Is everything as it should be (with current gear) reforge wise?

    Gemming, i assume 12 intelect is still the cap per gem, before going away from 40 intelect gems.

    Best
    Ain
    Ain @ Emerald Dream

  15. #15
    Reforging:

    Any items with out haste on it, should have another 2ndary stat reforged into haste
    Any items that does have haste on it, should have another 2ndary stat (NOT Haste) reforged into spirit (if it already have spirit, chose hit), you can take mastery or crit, depending if you wanna close in on hit cap or go for another stat.


    Gems:

    Red: 40 int
    Blue: 20int 20spirit (40int)
    yellow: 20 int 20haste (40int)

    If the socket bonus is int or haste, then matching the socket is worth it.
    It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ain View Post
    uh.. where did i change hit into spirit? I assume you mean the other way arround.

    Ill take a look at my reforging

    Forging more spirit (crit to spirit) where haste is not an option.

    /Ain
    If you want the full amount of hit on the item why not change it to spirit? Spirit is a superior hit stat due to the fact it provides OOC regen, sure it's not gonna make or break anything but might as well go with it, might help you not have to drink as often during quick trash clears.

    As for the hit cap, I raided last night with only 11% hit and ended up with the 2nd best spriest dps on Chimaeron for logs loaded to WoL (you can check it out here). I was first when I first loaded it but got beaten shortly after, the number 1 spriest kill had 30% more DI uptime and ele totem buff which I didn't enjoy. It would appear to me that hit may well be a poor stat for us as the simcraft results seem to suggest.

    Having said that I am running with 2 or 3 items that have unmodified hit... I think realistically i'd like to have no less than a 5% chance to miss, that means only 1 in 20 spells are going to require recasting.

  17. #17
    The Patient Pythagoreant's Avatar
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    Hmm, I actually didn't know that MB consumed orbs even if you miss, so thank you for informing me.

    In order to better simulate my actual playstyle in SimulationCraft, I select "mediocre" player, which lowers reaction time somewhat.

    If you disagree with simming it, go and try it out for yourself. Get a hit trinket and a haste trinket, equip only one of them, and go to the training dummy with each one. Yes, running without the hit cap requires quicker reflexes and punishes higher latency, and now, hit would be a DPS increase for me (I'm down to about 11.5% hit), but when I got rid of 3% hit (from 14.5% to 11.5%), I gained equivalent haste and my DPS increased.

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