Paladin Tanking Hit/Exp ~Help

[Hayden272]

after the new patch what now? do we change to reforge hit / exp or keep with avoidance?

[Malthanis]

Take what you can, but don't work too hard on it. You should be good with the Seal of Truth glyph and whatever random hit that some tanking plate gives you. As a tank, your primary job is to hold threat and not die. The 'hold threat' is covered by Vengeance (just tell your DPS not to go absolutely crazy within the first 5-10 seconds), so you need to focus on the 'not dying' part.

When we get the 'unhittable' cap of 102.4% combined dodge/parry/block/miss, then you can start taking a serious look at threat stats.

[Kabbalah]

I'd go with expertise soft cap or near close to it. It only costs about ~480 expertise to knock 8% dodge/parry off the attack table. Add Glyph of Truth you'll get another 5% to reach soft cap. Expertise soft cap is the best way to reduce RNG, make WoG more reliable again and it will help to keep Holy Shield up.

Personally I think expertise before soft cap is more worth than dodge and parry, but still below mastery.
Hit is still not worth it, ~900 rating for 8% hit is too expensive in my opinion.

[evolve]

Unless you are hitting enrage timers, if you're having any trouble holding threat your dps need to back off.

If you are hitting enrage timers because you can't hold enough threat then you need to work on your expertise and then hit (in that order).

I honestly doubt you guys are hitting enrage timers on any bosses so I think you'll be just fine keeping everything the way it is.

[zealous]

(from a raiding PoV)

I'd say it's less about threat and more about needing WoG healing consistency. Which in turn depends on how safe you feel with your healers.

I haven't checked EJ or Maintankadin yet after patch since I've been away for a while, maybe someone there has crunched the numbers on how much healing we potentially lose from not being hit/exp capped (soft exp cap ofc, hard cap is an exercise in futility).

WoG scaling is still stupid-good with vengeance (which is what should have been nerfed, not the chance to generate HP.... another "great" move by Blizz).
Not only did it give you reliable self-healing pre-patch, but with WoG crits upwards of 25-30k (iirc) , in my raids, when I was topped off by the healers, WoG saved many raid members on AoE-heavy fights like Double Dragons.

Depending on healer comp, encounter and rng, my WoG healing was something around 4-8% in 10 man raids.

With all hit/exp reforged into mastery, I'm sitting at something like 4.7% hit and 16 expertise (SoT glyph). Now I think I'm gonna reforge back a bit to smth like 5.5-6% hit and 18-20 expertise.

I think I won't be going for the soft caps just yet, gonna see how much this change hurts my self-healing. If it hurts it a lot, I'm going to go for the soft caps (or at least one). They're quite reachable.

That is all personal preference though. Until someone sits down and does the number crunching on this issue, it's all conjecture.

I do still think, however, that it was a pretty retarded thing to do to protadins.

P.S. We may encounter some annoying threat issues in 5 mans now I think, considering vengeance is almost non-existent in there (at least on pulls). Especially if we get a couple unlucky misses.

Get your taunt buttons ready.

[Kabbalah]

@zealous
If I'm not mistaken, having 8% miss means 8% less Holy Power. This again means 8% less WoG.
With zero hit and expertise you'll lose 28.5% WoG, 14,5% without considering expertise hard cap.
Below expertise soft cap, ~480 rating will give us 8% less chance to be dodged/parried (Glyph gives another 5% to reach cap).
For 8% hit, you'll need ~900 rating.
480 rating is about 2.7% parry and dodge combined. (depending on diminishing return).
480 rating is about 10.6% block chance (which is a lot of mitigation). Going from 45% to 55% block chance is a 22% increase in mitigation.

The simple calculations above are not the end-of-all answer to prot reforging. But it will show you some points of value.

[zealous]

@zealous
If I'm not mistaken, having 8% miss means 8% less Holy Power. This again means 8% less WoG.
With zero hit and expertise you'll lose 28.5% WoG, 14,5% without considering expertise hard cap.
Below expertise soft cap, ~480 rating will give us 8% less chance to be dodged/parried (Glyph gives another 5% to reach cap).
For 8% hit, you'll need ~900 rating.
480 rating is about 2.7% parry and dodge combined. (depending on diminishing return).
480 rating is about 10.6% block chance (which is a lot of mitigation). Going from 45% to 55% block chance is a 22% increase in mitigation.

The simple calculations above are not the end-of-all answer to prot reforging. But it will show you some points of value.

Well percentages are a funky thing and the value of those 8% is smaller on a short fight and bigger on a long fight. I'm pretty sure we won't be seeing a flat 8% decrease in WoG healing. I'll expect it to fluctuate from 1% to 30%.

Imo it's all about consistency and the danger of rng miss streaks.

Is it worth it to invest stat points for healing consistency and protection from rng (HP dry spells)?
Over mastery - probably not.
Over avoidance - not sure yet.

[Téuntjûh]

The amount of avoidance you'll lose by taking back more exp/hit is not worth the few extra heals you get.
The only thing you really want to watch is if you can keep your holy shield up

[zealous]

The amount of avoidance you'll lose by taking back more exp/hit is not worth the few extra heals you get.
The only thing you really want to watch is if you can keep your holy shield up

That can be accomplished by 1 or 2 HP WoGs too, w/o any stat investment.

[Xenorun]

Someone on Maintankadin pointed out that WoG scales linearly. So you could just go about your normal rotation of CS -> J -> CS -> AS -> CS -> WoG and if any of those missed, its whatever. Not saying thats how you should do it, but you can and it wont hurt much. The same is not true for Shield of Righteous though, you should only use that with 3 HP still (and probably still only with a SD proc).

I went apeshit with Hit / Exp for like, a day and instantly went back. Was scary losing so much block and whatnot I'll suffer through a few misses.

Edit: Zealous beat me to it. The entire reason why I posted just now, was to point out that you do as I stated above, and you'll never have any fear of HS falling off. LIL DARTH VADER MAN WAS QUICKER THEN I WAS >

[zealous]

Someone on Maintankadin pointed out that WoG scales linearly. So you could just go about your normal rotation of CS -> J -> CS -> AS -> CS -> WoG and if any of those missed, its whatever. Not saying thats how you should do it, but you can and it wont hurt much. The same is not true for Shield of Righteous though, you should only use that with 3 HP still (and probably still only with a SD proc).

I went apeshit with Hit / Exp for like, a day and instantly went back. Was scary losing so much block and whatnot I'll suffer through a few misses.

Edit: Zealous beat me to it. The entire reason why I posted just now, was to point out that you do as I stated above, and you'll never have any fear of HS falling off. LIL DARTH VADER MAN WAS QUICKER THEN I WAS >

Lulz. It's Revan from SW:KotOR =)

Revan > Vader any day of the week.

[Kabbalah]

Well percentages are a funky thing and the value of those 8% is smaller on a short fight and bigger on a long fight. I'm pretty sure we won't be seeing a flat 8% decrease in WoG healing. I'll expect it to fluctuate from 1% to 30%.

Percentage will stay the same regardless of fight length. Only RNG can cause the value to change and it is more likely to happen in shorter fights. On longer fights, it'll normalize to said percentage value.
And I said 28.5% less WoG without any hit and expertise. So if you compare to pre 4.0.6 logs take 28.5% minus your expertise and hit.

Imo it's all about consistency and the danger of rng miss streaks.

Is it worth it to invest stat points for healing consistency and protection from rng (HP dry spells)?
Over mastery - probably not.
Over avoidance - not sure yet.

I think it's good to reforge avoidance to expertise soft cap but not hit. Because expertise before soft cap has about double the effectiveness of hit. But I'm not sure either if it's really worth it.

[Deleted]

I've reforged my tanking set to reach hit and expertise cap (16 + 10 from seal). I've lost about 10% avoidance (from 90 to 80).

I was sad at first then I noticed a couple of things:

1) with my old tanking set without hit and expertise, I miss a lot of hits and my HoPo generators was often parried and dodged. It's true that WoG scales linearly, but it's also true that if we heal for 15k (random number) with a 3 HoPo Wog after 9 seconds rotation, healing 10k because we missed one HoPo is a big HPS loss. So if you dont reach hit/exp caps, you lose survability.
2) with my new hit/exp caps, I can hold threat easily without popping CD at the start of the fight and use them when they are really needed (no required to start fight with divine plea/ avenging wrath opening)

[psathyanhome]

I am a pally tank and this is my stats as of now

dodge=10.09%
parry = 12.43%
block = 47.65%(without Baradin warden's trinket) else it is ~52%
and I always keep my holy shield up

So all these puts me at 85.3%
my hit is 731 or 6.09%
exp with glyph 22

I have no threat issue and no issue with WoG, i usually heal for like 25-30k
But the huge problem I feel in this stat is i reforged
269 of my dodge to 269 hit
223 of parry to 223 hit
162 mastry to 112 hit n 50 exp

If I dont do the reforge this way my hit is somewhere 1.**% and I was trying to do a random one day with this strat and I failed so bdaly. I do understand that running heroics with lot hit/exp is threat issue but I was loosing agro to a boss fight in heroic random.

I was wondering if i loose that much agro on random heroic boss how will i survive a raid boss and i do not want to upset my raid lead or waste time for rest of 24 people in raid by hearthing back to SW and reforging my gears.

If I remember, I lost straight 6%-9% of my avoidance for getting hit or exp close to cap

what kind of food buff do u guys take?? 90 dodge food or 90 mastry food?

is it safe to pst armory link here?

[Linkie]

I have never had problems holding aggro on boss fights, and I run with 0.6% hit and 0 expertise rating, but 3 from the human racial. Here is my armory:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...linkiie/simple

I do have some problems in heroics, but I only run with guild groups and we just deal with it. If they die, they whine and I laugh at them anyway.

Boss fights CAN be a problem for the first 15-20s if you are very unlucky, but make sure your DPS knows about it, and you should be fine.

Personally, I use the mastery food, as well as elixir of the master.

[psathyanhome]

thanks for the armory link
but what kind of rotation do you use? and do u self heal wth WoG?

armory
saty- US exodar.

[Linkie]

For a secure pull, do something like this:
Seal of Truth up.
Divine Plea -> Inquisition -> Avenging Wrath -> Exorcism -> Start running -> Avenging Shield -> Judgement -> You should be in melee range -> Crusader Strike -> Normal rotation. You can switch to seal of insight when you get a decent threat lead and vengeance stack.

A bit easier but slightly less threat generating pull is this:
Seal of truth up.
Divine Plea -> run -> Avenging Shield -> Jugdement -> Avenging Wrath -> Shield of the Righteous -> Normal rotation.

Normal rotation is a bit messed up now because of the recent change to HP-generation, but it's basically like this:

Crusader Strike every second skill use, or Hammer of the Righteous for AoE. Fill the gaps with skills in this priority; ShoR/WoG if 3 HP > HoW if under 20% HP > J > AS > HW > Consecrate. Doing lots of HW/Consecrates will drain your mana if you don't have Seal of Insight up. WoG when you have a decent threat lead.

[Xs]

Haven't done a huge amount of tanking since the patch, only about 9-10 hours worth. But I've not had any problems with 4 expertise and about 0.5% hit, although I reforged the hit cap for Rebuke alone to give me something to actually do rather than fall asleep.

Come 4.1 with the current changes you can afford to go back to 0/0 assuming you are fine with your threat, this is mostly using DP > ShotR then basically AFKing with my face on the keyboard, mostly using WoG unless theres a need for DPS.

[psathyanhome]

cool thanks all, going to try to shred all my dodge to hit reforge.
use seal of truth and try tanking Cho'gall today.

just a last question. what do u guys prefer more as pally tank. Mastry > dodge> parry???
I am actually following that order.

[Linkie]

Get as much mastery as possible, and keep your parry and dodge RATINGS about equal.