Yey WOG change!

[mypally]

Disclaimers: I am posting this on mmo champ to get opinions before I post on the official forum. I want to make this shorter without getting rid of alot of the "facts". That being said, I do not have a great understanding of most classes self heals, so feel free to correct me. Also, I am well aware that the info here is partyl based off stuff that was just datamined in an early edition of a patch that is months away, so I am not claiming the sky is falling, just making assumptions based on that info.

I used to find it funny that in wotlk, ret was unable to self heal overly well, however we could still do it better then some classes. With the change to 20 second cd on WOG, our so so self heals have gone down even more, but dont believe me just saying that, here are the numbers (and yes, I am aware that this change was made becuase of prot, doesnt mean it doesnt affect ret). Now these abilities have varying amount of dps loss, I will also state all assumptions.

Ret: 1.12k hps
Lock: 2.4k hps
DK: .75k hps to 2.43k hps
Rogue: .8 - 1.6k hps
Warrior .24 - 1.8k hps (I think) no dps loss
Spriest: .48 - .96k hps no dps loss
Feral: .8k hps no dps loss
Enh: .6k hps
Ele, hunters, boomkins and mages have 0 effective self healing. Granted that ele/boomkins could cast spells on themselves, but then they become a quckly ooming healer, not a dps

So what are my conclusions? Well, personally I find it stupid that anyone besides the 4 healing classes can do any amount of healing, self or otherwise. Ignoring that, the numbers above are (at least I'm fairly sure they are) lower bounds on self heals, with the exception of ret which is an absolute upper bound. I find it interesting that (excuse the rp) demon worshipers, the lich kings champions, thieves, and gladiators can heal for more then the warriors of the Holy Light. I also dislike that with the exception of hunters and mages, all healing hybrids do less self healing then pures and tank hybrids. Does the hybrid tax apply to heals as well? Why do 2 classes that are associated with nature do 0 self healing?

Anyway, what I was really hoping to get out of this is this: paladins are a support class with minimal support. At the moment we supply hand of freedom, and a stun. We cant heal others very effectively in pvp because of the low up time on most targets, and the healing we do tends to have a very large impact on our damage done. Hell, repentence is the shortest duartion cc in the game, and its also the only one you have to put talent points into to get (I always found that funny). I dont see ret's getting snares, a charge, or an MS any time soon, so some more support would be really nice. Maybe lower hand of sac's cd down to something where it can be used more then once every 2 mins. Give hand of freedom some dispell prtection maybe. What I would kill for is the ability to clense magic again. I'm not really expecting any of this, but since I know blizz doesnt want ret to be as offensive minded as any other melee, I ask that we be given more tools to do our defensive job with.

---------- Post added 2011-02-24 at 10:48 PM ----------

Reasoning/calculations (feel free to skip if you believe me)

Ret: Lets say we use a 3 holy power wog on cooldown. My WoG in my crappy ret gear (half heroic blues, half 359 epics) heal for 4500 per charge unbuffed, so I'm going to round this up for the sake of arguement and say it heals for 5k per HP in better gear buffed. This gives 15k heals over 20 seconds, which is 750hps. Add in sacred shield, which is 22k absorbs every 60 seconds, and you get an additional 366 hps.

DK: Death Pact 2 min cd, AMS every 45 seconds. Assuming 120k health death pact will heal for 30k every 2 mins, 250 hps; AMS will double that effect (and im counting this since every class except for warriors has a reasonable amount of spell damage) for 500 hps. Now death strike is a weird thing, it can be used up to (havent played my dk since early wotlk, so excuse me if this is wrong) twice every 10 seconds, giving 1.68 hps. So death strike usage means that a dk's self heals will vary from .75k hps to 2.43k hps

Rogue: Recup, between 2-4% of health every 3 seconds, assume 120k health again, so 2.4-4.8k health every 3 seconds, or .8 - 1.6k hps

Lock: I really cant get a good understanding of how much self heals they get, because alot of it is based on procs. Spamming drain life appears to do 2% of health every second, So for simplicitie sake, going to just leave it at that, since most other increases in self healing are based being affliction. so 2% per second gives a nice flat 2.4k hps

Warrior: First, i assume 2/2 field dressing here. Enraged regen, gives 240 hps. Second wind can give between 0 and 720 hps. Blood craze gives between 0 and 864 hps. Add em up, and you get 240-1800 hps with a reasonable number being about 1k.

Spriest: just using vamp embrace, 6% of damage done heals. I dont really know what a reasonable pvp dps would be so Im just going to half what i think a reasonable pve dps would be, and thats 16k dps. giving us .48 - .96k hps

Feral: Leader of ther pack: 4% of total health every 6 seconds. .8 k hps.

Enh: I am really not sure how much wolves heal for, so going to leave that out. I'm also not sure on maelstrom wep, so since im probably going to get this wrong, going to assume its up every 10 seconds, and you can use you effective heal every time its up (Healing wave heals for what, 6000 as enh???) giving my very innacurate guess at shaman self healing to be 600 hps

[Prentice]

What spec is the hunter and why can't the ele sham drop HS totem?

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

how doesnt anyone understand that if a repaladin uses his word of glory he looses around 60% of the damage he's worked up the past 10seconds?

[Prentice]

Its a lot more than 10 seconds in PvP. A lot closer to double that amount of time.

[Soisoisoi]

Since when does AMS effect any healing on a DK? A Glyphed DK can heal 15% of their HP every time they have either 1 Unholy & 1 Frost, or 2 Death Runes, or a mix. At the cost of DPS


Not to mention, it only takes 13.5sec, without haste, to get 3 HP. Your numbers mean nothing.

I believe it was deserved for lower levels(My level 60 Prot Pally heals the majority of my HP with a WoG), but for 85 I really don't think it was needed it.

[Malarkey]

If you're going to post constructively and try to change Blizzard's mind about something don't use "I think" or "just guessing here". Actually go out and find or do the calculations. Posting what you think will get you nowhere - what you think doesn't matter, what actually exists in game does.

[Abandon]

How can a Shadow Priest do almost 1k HPS healing to themselves without using healing spells? Their only self-healing comes from Vampiric Embrace, which converts 6% of their damage done into healing, and a small amount of the healing from Devouring Plague. In order to get that much self-healing you would need to be doing about 16k sustained DPS in PVP.
Also, even with that, they would need to keep up 17k sustained DPS in order to get less than 1% of their total health per second back. So in order to heal yourself up to full with Vampiric Touch it would take almost two minutes of uninterrupted nuking on a player.

[aGit]

Since when does AMS effect any healing on a DK? A Glyphed DK can heal 15% of their HP every time they have either 1 Unholy & 1 Frost, or 2 Death Runes, or a mix. At the cost of DPS


Not to mention, it only takes 13.5sec, without haste, to get 3 HP. Your numbers mean nothing.

I believe it was deserved for lower levels(My level 60 Prot Pally heals the majority of my HP with a WoG), but for 85 I really don't think it was needed it.

Perhaps not to healing, however you have to keep in mind that all self heals are effectively effective health, same applies to all absorb effects imo.

[Requital]

how doesnt anyone understand that if a repaladin uses his word of glory he looses around 60% of the damage he's worked up the past 10seconds?

10 Seconds shoot I wish it was that quick, for me it feels like ages heh. Perhaps it's the fact haste is useless in the Arena and I have none.

[Soisoisoi]

Perhaps not to healing, however you have to keep in mind that all self heals are effectively effective health, same applies to all absorb effects imo.

So with that logic Prot Warriors have 90000000 HPS if they stack stamina? /facedesk

Effective Health =/= Self healing.

[thoukaia]

So with that logic Prot Warriors have 90000000 HPS if they stack stamina? /facedesk

Effective Health =/= Self healing.

you misunderstood his post, work on your reading comprehension before facedesking

[Soisoisoi]

you misunderstood his post, work on your reading comprehension before facedesking

No, I knew what he meant. He tried to say that Anti-Magic shell doubles your HPS, because it increases effective health.. And for this thread, that's a stupid thing to say.

[Jademist]

Enh: I am really not sure how much wolves heal for, so going to leave that out. I'm also not sure on maelstrom wep, so since im probably going to get this wrong, going to assume its up every 10 seconds, and you can use you effective heal every time its up (Healing wave heals for what, 6000 as enh???) giving my very innacurate guess at shaman self healing to be 600 hps

I use Greater Healing Wave or Healing Surge...much better healing.

[Bokchoii]

It was needed. The biggest issue with Ret self healing was that if a ret wanted to play defensive and heal, it got stupid. Their healing was also so bursty that it unbalances things more than a constant stream of small heals. Being able to throw an offheal for 10-20k (I've seen much, much higher) is kind of silly, especially since it could be used on someone else.

[mypally]

Ok, where to start. First off, some of you that are not sure how i got the numbers, I'm fairly certain I showed my work, and my assumptions (shadowpriest self healing is 1k for 16k dps, but that is exactly what I said it would be).

Absorbs are self healing. If you have a 1 health a nd a 30k shield up, vs someone at 1 health who heals themselves for 30k, the net efect id the same assuming the shield is burned through.

The "I thinks" are there because that is a part where my research couldnt cut it, Id likely need to actualy play the class. There was a fair bit of research done in this, and f you would reas it you would see it.

The time it takes to get 3 holy power is not 13.5 seconds, since procs can give you 3, and haste does effect the cool down of CS. Now granted that a ret would not want to use many, if any of his stacks to doa WoG due to the dps loss, but not having the option to kind of sucks.

Lastly, for the Enh comment, I wasnt sure if you had the mana to do that. If you are actualy able to use that fairly often in pvp, then I would love the average time it takes to get to a 5 stack of maelstrom, and the average amount of healing

[Foomy]

It was needed. The biggest issue with Ret self healing was that if a ret wanted to play defensive and heal, it got stupid. Their healing was also so bursty that it unbalances things more than a constant stream of small heals. Being able to throw an offheal for 10-20k (I've seen much, much higher) is kind of silly, especially since it could be used on someone else.

Yea of course.. and recup is fine because it's a stream I guess

[Recoverus]

It was needed. The biggest issue with Ret self healing was that if a ret wanted to play defensive and heal, it got stupid. Their healing was also so bursty that it unbalances things more than a constant stream of small heals. Being able to throw an offheal for 10-20k (I've seen much, much higher) is kind of silly, especially since it could be used on someone else.

Then address the root of the problem which is the Selfless Healer talent that increases the potency of the heal - not WoG itself. This is yet another example of the crazy pattern that Blizzard have got going on at the moment of making the changes in the wrong areas to achieve a suitable balance.

[Soisoisoi]

The time it takes to get 3 holy power is not 13.5 seconds, since procs can give you 3, and haste does effect the cool down of CS. Now granted that a ret would not want to use many, if any of his stacks to doa WoG due to the dps loss, but not having the option to kind of sucks.

So you can get MORE than 3 HP every 13.5 seconds, making it more healing. You can't just blurt out and say "oh but using it is a dps loss" and then expect it from other classes.

I'm not saying the nerf was justified(and I'm not saying it wasn't).. All I'm trying to say is that you can't be bias towards Paladins, you can't base HPS off say, the time it takes Maelstrom to stack and then average healing it does.. You can choose which heal, or you could not use it for a heal at all.

This thread has no facts about anything, if you ever go up against a Ret or Prot pally you would know it's annoying just seeing their HP burst up and down.

[mypally]

So you can get MORE than 3 HP every 13.5 seconds, making it more healing. You can't just blurt out and say "oh but using it is a dps loss" and then expect it from other classes.

reading comrehension. They just made it so WOG has a 20 second cooldown. That is what I based my ret numbers off of.

And sure the healing is bursty, thats part of what I hate. It means you would have to hold onto holy power at times, or risk not having the ability to heal when you need it.

And I'll add in ele and enh healing stream totem in a bit, need to get some decent numbers for them

[Soisoisoi]

reading comrehension. They just made it so WOG has a 20 second cooldown. That is what I based my ret numbers off of.

And sure the healing is bursty, thats part of what I hate. It means you would have to hold onto holy power at times, or risk not having the ability to heal when you need it.

And I'll add in ele and enh healing stream totem in a bit, need to get some decent numbers for them

Try using your brain instead of saying 'reading comprehension', talking pre-nerf.. Just no use trying to get you to realise though I guess?
Adding something like Healing Stream is just bad, you can kill it and then the HPS instantly changed, again; different classes HPS doesn't not justify a WoG nerf.