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  1. #1
    Warchief Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Agnosticism is NOT a system of belief.

    Want to know what really pisses me off? Self-proclaimed "agnostics". Want to know why? Because you've got no idea what it means.

    Being gnostic/agnostic describes how much a person knows, generally with regards to theistic claims.
    Gnostic: Claims to possess knowledge relating to theistic matters.
    Agnostic: Does not claim to possess knowledge relating to theistic matters. In other words, is not a gnostic.

    These two words, while useful, give no indication or description of your stance on religious beliefs.

    Being theist/atheist describes your position with regards to religious beliefs and concepts.
    Thiest: Believes in the existance of a God or Gods.
    Atheist: Does not accept theistic claims. In other words, is not a theist.

    The common misconception is that "atheist" means "gnostic atheist", which isn't always the case. Being atheist doesn't mean "I know that God doesn't exist and you're stupid if you believe it does". Being atheist means you don't accept theistic claims as fact. So everyone who claims to be "agnostic", is in fact an agnostic atheist. You either believe in a God or you don't, there is no in-between. If you can't say, with 100% confidence, that you believe in a God, you're an atheist. Sure, you can be agnostic all you want, I don't care, but you're still an atheist.

    Given two binary choices, this produces four possible outcomes:
    - Gnostic theist: Believes in the existance of God(s), and claims to be able to prove their beliefs are fact. These are the "Bible is fact and are proof of God's existance" theists.
    - Agnostic thiest: Believes in the existance of God(s), but does not claim to be able to prove their beliefs are fact. These are the "I know I can't prove my beliefs are true, but I have a feeling that they are" theists.
    - Gnostic atheist: Rejects the claims made by theists, and claims to be able to show that theistic claims are impossible. These are the "God isn't real and I can prove it" atheists.
    - Agnostic atheist: Rejects the claims made by theists, typically due to lack of evidence to support theistic claims, but does not claim to be able to show that theistic claims are impossible. These are the "I don't think God(s) are real, because there is no evidence to suggest that they are" atheists.

    When it comes to your stance on religion, you're one of these four. So "agnostics", which one will it be?
    Quote Originally Posted by BattlemasterSkarab View Post
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  2. #2
    Im having a hard time taking you serious when you're avatar is just grinning ad me with his problem officer

    But you made some good points, about the whole Agnostic/Gnostic thingadinga.

    I myself is a Atheist, i do not believe there is any pinkman with a yellow beard and blue socks sitiing on a cloud deciding shit for me.
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  3. #3
    Antitheism is what im all about.
    In Memorial of the Sword Guy

  4. #4
    Gnostic the...oh, you were only asking agnostics =(

    Very true point, at least. I know a lot of people who claim to be agnostic as a way of saying "I don't believe in God but don't want you to yell at me for it." Pretty cheap method, for every reason you listed. Still, religious topics aren't going to go well, even if they are about not having any. Except a lock forthwith.
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  5. #5
    I think proclaiming so surely that there isnt a god, or that stating confidently that there is are both silly things to do.

    There is no evidence so far that there is and there isnt definitive evidence that there isnt, but a smart person would live his or her life and just keep their mind open to the possibilities.

    Choosing to deny something based on such little proof for or against the argument is never a good thing to do, neither is blindly following something that could be no more than a modern outlet for a primeval need for a greater power

    point of this is @ the OT - does it really matter to you how people choose to express their belief system when they really have no idea what they are talking about in the first place?

  6. #6
    Warchief Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 312guiltyspark View Post
    Choosing to deny something based on such little proof for or against the argument is never a good thing to do
    It's actually an excellent thing to do. There is NEVER a reason to take anything on faith. If it can't be backed up with evidence to prove or suggest it, it's not worth considering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I know a lot of people who claim to be agnostic as a way of saying "I don't believe in God but don't want you to yell at me for it."
    This is pretty much the crux of it. Coming from a circle of friends where roughly half of us are theists, I am the only atheist amongst us who does try and call myself "agnostic" to describe my beliefs, because the others just don't want to offend those of us who are theists by trying to put themselves in a 'middle position'.
    Quote Originally Posted by BattlemasterSkarab View Post
    GOD's ARMAGEDDON and DOOM'S DAY!!!!!!.... Imagine that...
    4 apocalyptic horsemen
    Sky turned red
    Sun turned black
    All WoW servers down

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Reliquary View Post
    Im having a hard time taking you serious when you're avatar is just grinning ad me with his problem officer

    But you made some good points, about the whole Agnostic/Gnostic thingadinga.

    I myself is a Atheist, i do not believe there is any pinkman with a yellow beard and blue socks sitiing on a cloud deciding shit for me.
    Plenty of other deeply religious communities from all over the world also do not believe that there is a bearded man sitting on a throne of clouds. This is normally because they aren't five years old anymore. If you're an atheist because study of religion has left you in a position of disbelief and improbability or otherwise with too little solid fact to make a real stance in favor of religion, then you can be called a respectable atheist. However, if you reject religion based on children's cartoons and other metaphorical denotations of a "God" directed at the youth audience, then you're just narrow minded and taking a lazy stance on the subject.

    @OP

    Agnosticism is a system of belief because agnosticism accepts that something which can't be explained should not affect one's life. This is a system of belief which can be applied to many various subjects that require you to believe or not believe but is most usually applied to theisms. True agnostics cannot be your definition of theist or atheist agnostics because those two assume an absolute knowledge which is the opposite of true agnosticism. In fact, your theist agnostic is better described as "going on faith" which is better described as theist (and the opposite for your atheist agnostic definition).

    So there you have your only category of agnostic which is simply titled "Agnostics". Out of sight, out of mind.


    In b4: I must be a Muslim/Jew/Christian/Buddhist/Pastafarian.
    Last edited by RabbitPrime; 2011-02-12 at 06:06 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasm View Post
    If you can't say, with 100% confidence, that you believe in a God, you're an atheist. Sure, you can be agnostic all you want, I don't care, but you're still an atheist.
    I can't say, with 100% confidence, that I believe God exists, thus I'm not a theist. Yet I also can't say, with 100% confidence, that I believe God doesn't exist, thus I'm not an atheist. It follows then, that I possess no knowledge about the existence of God. Thus, agnostic.

    Your title is right however, agnosticism is not a system of belief, it is more of a lack of a system of belief.

    ---------- Post added 2011-02-12 at 12:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitPrime View Post
    Agnosticism is a system of belief because agnosticism accepts that something which can't be explained should not affect one's life. This is a system of belief which can be applied to many various subjects that require you to believe or not believe but is most usually applied to theisms.
    This also is valid.
    Last edited by Chaka; 2011-02-12 at 06:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaInsane View Post
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  9. #9
    i dont define myself agnostic, i just dont believe in god

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasm View Post
    It's actually an excellent thing to do. There is NEVER a reason to take anything on faith. If it can't be backed up with evidence to prove or suggest it, it's not worth considering.
    you read too far in. or maybe i didnt make it clearr.

    im going to use ghosts as my example. no sane person should believe in ghosts just from hearing about them or reading about them. but its a closed mind that hears about ghosts, realises the dumbness of the idea and rejects the slightest possibility of them being real. but a smart person would mull it over, realise that there is a high, extremely almost ridiculously high chance that ghosts are NOT real but that there is also that tinsie tiny 0.0001% chance that they just might exist in some form.

    such a person wouldnt go to parties or the bar and proclaim loudly that he or she believes or does not believe in ghosts, they would say the smart thing and answer "i dont know yet"

  11. #11
    Warchief Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaka View Post
    I can't say, with 100% confidence, that I believe God exists. Yet I also can't say, with 100% confidence, that I believe God doesn't exist. It follows then, that I possess no knowledge about the existence of God. Thus, agnostic.
    Perfectly true. But you're running on the assumption that atheist means "I can say with 100% confidence that I believe God doesn't exist", which isn't accurate. That would be gnostic atheism. What you're describing is agnostic atheism. Until you're a theist, you're an atheist.
    Quote Originally Posted by BattlemasterSkarab View Post
    GOD's ARMAGEDDON and DOOM'S DAY!!!!!!.... Imagine that...
    4 apocalyptic horsemen
    Sky turned red
    Sun turned black
    All WoW servers down

  12. #12
    Every person with a scientific mind is a Agnostic Atheist, as we don't reject the possibility of religious deities, but then again, we classify them as a unfounded hypothesis.

  13. #13
    In terms of your definitions OP, there are basically two choices: Either you believe, or you don't. (Disregarding the proof you might think you have in either case)

    Some people want to keep themselves out of that classification, because they might doubt the existence of a god, but don't want to proclaim themselves convinced atheists possibly pissing off their theist friends and family.

    These are people that will neither say there IS a god, nor that there is NOT a god. These are people that find the entire discussion irrelevant.

    This is the group of people that call themselves agnostics, myself among them. Maybe that annoys you, but to the rest of the world it is pretty clear what they mean by that.

  14. #14
    Warchief Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 312guiltyspark View Post
    you read too far in. or maybe i didnt make it clearr.

    im going to use ghosts as my example. no sane person should believe in ghosts just from hearing about them or reading about them. but its a closed mind that hears about ghosts, realises the dumbness of the idea and rejects the slightest possibility of them being real. but a smart person would mull it over, realise that there is a high, extremely almost ridiculously high chance that ghosts are NOT real but that there is also that tinsie tiny 0.0001% chance that they just might exist in some form.

    such a person wouldnt go to parties or the bar and proclaim loudly that he or she believes or does not believe in ghosts, they would say the smart thing and answer "i dont know yet"
    I understand what you're trying to say, but there's a difference between rejecting an idea because there's no evidence to back it up, and rejecting an idea because you have evidence to support the opposite of it.

    An agnostic atheist rejects the idea of God(s) because there's no evidence to support them. A gnostic atheist rejects the idea of God(s) because they have evidence to support the "opposite" of God(s).
    Quote Originally Posted by BattlemasterSkarab View Post
    GOD's ARMAGEDDON and DOOM'S DAY!!!!!!.... Imagine that...
    4 apocalyptic horsemen
    Sky turned red
    Sun turned black
    All WoW servers down

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasm View Post
    Perfectly true. But you're running on the assumption that atheist means "I can say with 100% confidence that I believe God doesn't exist", which isn't accurate. That would be gnostic atheism. What you're describing is agnostic atheism. Until you're a theist, you're an atheist.
    From dictionary.com
    atheism - 4 dictionary results
    a·the·ism   
    [ey-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
    –noun
    1.
    the doctrine or belief that there is no god.
    2.
    disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.


    The first definition here shows that an Athiest is one who is 100% sure that there is no god, not one who is not 100% sure there is a god.
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaInsane View Post
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Callypso View Post
    In terms of your definitions OP, there are basically two choices: Either you believe, or you don't. (Disregarding the proof you might think you have in either case)

    Some people want to keep themselves out of that classification, because they might doubt the existence of a god, but don't want to proclaim themselves convinced atheists possibly pissing off their theist friends and family.

    These are people that will neither say there IS a god, nor that there is NOT a god. These are people that find the entire discussion irrelevant.

    This is the group of people that call themselves agnostics, myself among them. Maybe that annoys you, but to the rest of the world it is pretty clear what they mean by that.
    This is still a form of atheism, sorry. I'll find a link for you if someone doesn't beat me to it.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
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  17. #17
    Simply made:

    You say god is real but show me no reason to believe in it nor any proof supporting your case.
    I incline to say, I can't prove god is unreal ,by your standards, but given the lack of proof of it's existence I base my view of reality on the fact that it is HIGHLY unlikely that a deity of it's magnitude should prove to be real.

    If asked to disprove god I would merely claim that because you are unable to prove it IS real he can't be real, thus it is disproved

    Call me what you want but I hate the terms Theist/Atheist so i don't affiliate with neither.

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer Mandible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cursedfate View Post
    i dont define myself agnostic, i just dont believe in god
    The simple definition seperating an agnostic and atheist is that simple line or word to be exact - belief.
    If you don´t believe in God your an atheist since your certain of it. Agnostic on the other hand would be sceptical of the existance of God or gods since they have no actual proof of said existance. As allready said - based on knowing something.

    So in short your 100% correct in that statement.

    Note that an agnostic person can still "belive" there may be something higher than what you can see due to observations, but can never be 100% certain without said proof.

  19. #19
    Fluffy Kitten Badpaladin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasm View Post
    It's actually an excellent thing to do. There is NEVER a reason to take anything on faith. If it can't be backed up with evidence to prove or suggest it, it's not worth considering.
    Don't plan on getting married or having kids, then? You have absolutely no eveidence to prove your spouse isn't going to file for divorce and take all they can, or that your kid won't end up a meth addict who sells his own baby for the next fix, but millions of atheists go ahead with this anyways.

    I'm an atheist, by the way.
    My Short Required Reading List: One. Two. || Last.fm

  20. #20
    Warchief Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitPrime View Post
    So there you have your only category of agnostic which is simply titled "Agnostics". Out of sight, out of mind.
    Yet another case of the 'middle position' so that you can try not to offend anyone.

    Whether you have understanding of what a theist is or not, unless you identify as a theist, you're an atheist. It makes no difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by BattlemasterSkarab View Post
    GOD's ARMAGEDDON and DOOM'S DAY!!!!!!.... Imagine that...
    4 apocalyptic horsemen
    Sky turned red
    Sun turned black
    All WoW servers down

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