Agnosticism is NOT a system of belief.

[Rocketsurgeon]

Wow this one blew up fast. Sad I missed it earlier.
Being agnostic simply means you don't know. You lack knowledge. I do agree that one could use the word to describe the nature of one's theism or atheism. But it can exist on its own to denote a 5th stance skipped by the OP's list of 4 options.

Is there a god? Can you prove it?:
There is! I can!
There is! I can't
There isn't! I can!
There isn't! I can't
#5 Don't know / Don't care

[Retsucks]

Your version of proof =/= their version of proof. To some Faith is enough to be proof.

Faith is inherently incapable of being proof. If i have faith that I'll be reincarnated as a snail when I die. That does not equal proof in any way shape or form.

[Nieronoid]

I see your point, but everyone knows what the other person means, when he states himself an atheist

[Rocketsurgeon]

Your version of proof =/= their version of proof. To some Faith is enough to be proof.

Faith by definition is incapable of being proof. To some, faith is enough to not want/need/consider proof.

[Retsucks]

I see your point, but everyone knows what the other person means, when he states himself an atheist

I've never understood how people can be anything BUT athiest. Faith in some all powerful magical being that literally not a single person on earth has ever seen, heard, or otherwise interacted with just seems absurd. If I said that I believed in undetectable magical elves that made good things happen to me, most christians would call me a crazy person. That's how I feel about them.

[Penatar]

Scientific fact requires no faith, as science is built around the opposite of faith, evidence, research, questioning and so on.

This is true, anyone who thinks science requires faith is an idiot, or a believer of higher powers. Science isn't a faith system. I don't have faith that gravity, electricity, and evolution will work, I know they will.

[Zadiell]

Here's a reality check, Most people have no idea what they believe, they simply follow what is most credited by thier society.

Most Christians, arin't Christians
Most Athiests arin't Athiests
Most people are parrots, they repeat what others say, and don't really think.

The only real beleif thats creditable is something attained through direct experience., everything else is like clothing, its put on, and thrown away later. People form opinions on things they know nothing about, and the loudest of them, are the ones who know nothing.

[zorkuus]

Yes exactly. Theories EXPLAIN facts, not prove them. There is no way to know if the Big Bang actually happened or not, all we can do is make are theories

I don't think you quite understood my point.

Proof is a mathematical term. The primary criterion of a scientific theory is evidence not proof. A scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation. The fact of the background microwave radiation of the universe or the fact galaxies are moving away from eachother are no less a fact than the fact of gravity. The big bang theory is the best explanation for these facts. The initial "bang", what the singularity is may be in dispute but the expansion of the universe from a smaller origin (which is what the main point of the big bang theory really is) is beoynd reasonable doubt.

Using your logic there is no way to know if gravity is what makes matter atract matter, all we can make is theories. What you fail to understand is that a theory is the highest science can achieve. Facts are independant of theories. I am typing this down at the moment, that is a fact (if you were to come here and verify it). Then you could make an hypothesis as to why and how I am writing this. Once you have tested it etc. it may become a theory, the fact still remained throughout the process.

So ok, we can never know for ABSOLUTE certainty that the big bang ever happened, I can give you that. But with the same reasoning we can never know for absolute certainty we are not living in the matrix. But for any other certainty that we humans perceive as true within the reality we live in, the big bang is a fact. The details migh change over time, but the fact of it happening remains.

[Penatar]

yes there is. I do not believe in God or anything like the god concept. or anything supernatural for that matter. but on the other hand I do not say it cant be. Until proven otherwise there is no god.

In the end there is a weak and strong agnosticism and one can be summed up as "I just dont ask the question whether there is a deity or now I dont give a fuck" there ya go thats where I stand.
No need for a god, not yours not anyones.

If you don't believe then you aren't in the middle. I'm a full fledged atheist, but if I was shown comprehensive and irrefutable evidence for the existence of God, I wouldn't deny it, nor would any other atheist. There isn't middle ground. God is either there or he isn't.

---------- Post added 2011-02-13 at 01:19 AM ----------

All I know is that I am agnostic. I am not sure yet on the existence of god though.

Greatly depends on the definition or idea of god.

if you want to get into the realm of what you are sure of, how do you know you are agnostic? How do you know you're not a very religious person in the far future living out the life of someone who thinks he is agnostic through some massive mmo-rpg, where we all are playing mmo-rpgs?

No one is sure of the existence of god or not, but to follow something that has no evidence is stupid. Do we need to create a term for people who don't believe there is flying teapots around Jupiter? They are there, I've seen them, I don't have pictures or evidence, so you can't be sure. So you can't say "I am not sure about the existence of those teapots, there for I'm a teapot agnostic." claims without evidence, no matter how many people follow it, should not be taken seriously.

[Rocketsurgeon]

I've never understood how people can be anything BUT athiest. Faith in some all powerful magical being that literally not a single person on earth has ever seen, heard, or otherwise interacted with just seems absurd. If I said that I believed in undetectable magical elves that made good things happen to me, most christians would call me a crazy person. That's how I feel about them.

Well, many religious people claim to have interacted with supernatural beings. Religious texts are written by and full of people claiming such. Same for religious television and websites. They would say they have seen/heard/interacted with an agent of their deity or some comparable being. Maybe the best question is, what is the proper response to such an experience? If I hear voices in my head, when is it rational to accept them at face value and when should I instead call into question my sanity and worldview?
It would appear to me, just guesstimating, that the majority of the religious people on the planet do not present a threat to themselves or those around them. If I accept that the majority of them are honest about their experiences and claims, I come to the conclusion that allowing them to continue as they are is a better alternative to medication, hospitalization, or other treatments for insanity.

[shocktopuslol]

i can't really call myself any of them and i tend to stay away from arguments like this, i prefer to say that i just don't recognise religion full stop.
i think the concept is a bit far fetched, along with what the bible says. however when people do have religious beliefs i am not outright rude and tell them that god doesn't exist (like half the people i know who call themselves athiest), i don't like them trying to force their beliefs down my throat so i don't do the same to them.
I honestly do not give a fuck about religion, i don't talk about, i don't think about it and i probably would not notice if it disappeared overnight

[Nieronoid]

I've never understood how people can be anything BUT athiest. Faith in some all powerful magical being that literally not a single person on earth has ever seen, heard, or otherwise interacted with just seems absurd. If I said that I believed in undetectable magical elves that made good things happen to me, most christians would call me a crazy person. That's how I feel about them.

Yeah, Religions mostly came up in times, where there were no logical explanation for things. So, they just assumed, that some dude was controlling everything they did.. (God)

The only religion I really support is the Buddhism, since there's no gods and other fairies

[atsawin26]

I usually find Matthew 7:6 comes to mind when I see people showing off their bigotry towards religion and claiming only fools and people with weak minds believe in a religion:

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast
ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them
under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

[Fuzzzie]

Discussions been had.

Closing