nerfed, nerfed, o and another nerf just for fun

[Breyers]

You can't be serious...

What kind of utility? Unholy wins for PvP utility by a long shot so I'll go over PvE utility.

You're arguing for Chillblains, Howling Blast, Brittle Bones, Mind Freeze and Imp Icy Talons.

Three other classes provide the Imp Icy Talons 10% atk speed increase, so that's not a point towards utility unique to Frost. This also provides the Frost DK with 5% additional melee haste, so it's not pure utility.

Brittle Bones shares its effect with Combat Rogue's Savage Combat, half of an Arms Warrior's Blood Frenzy, and a hunter pet's Gore, Tendon Rip, or Stampede so that's not unique to Frost. It also provides a 4% str boost so it's not pure utility.

Mind Freeze is available to all three specs.

Howling Blast was mega nerfed in AoE damage and is now less effective that good old DnD and diseases damage from Unholy (especially after that Mastery change) so you can't call it AoE utility.

Chillblains is a PvP oriented ability, so I suppose it's liken to AMZ, Unholy Command, Resilient Infection, Desecration and Unholy Blight. Not sure how it's a unique effect for Frost.

Unholy brings a "utility" ability in the form of Ebon Plague. I guess that means Unholy is a utility tree too. Poor DKs have no dedicated DPS trees.

Oh look at that, according to this data you have no idea what you're talking about.

Wait, Enhancement, and Arms, and Combat, and Hunter, are those the 3, long-lost Death Knight specs? And the Hunter-Dk class-hybrid? All you're doing is comparing what Frost to offer 4 other classes.

Mind freeze is available yes, but being able to interupt without having to worry about building (or using) Runic Power, that is for Frost (And before you spout off that it's a Tier 2 Talent, no Unholy DK is going to sub-spec frost)

Chillblains is great for Nefarian, and Cho'gal, and Conclave, pretty much any fight with Adds that need to be Kited or Slowed.

I suppose Ebon Plague-bringer is much better "utility"

[RabbitPrime]

Wait, Enhancement, and Arms, and Combat, and Hunter, are those the 4, long-lost Death Knight specs?

Mind freeze is available yes, but being able to interupt without having to worry about building (or using) Runic Power, that is for Frost (And being you spout off that it's a Tier 2 Talent, no Unholy DK is going to sub-spec frost)

Chillblains is great for Nefarian, and Cho'gal, and Conclave, pretty much any fight with Adds that need to be Kited or Slowed.

I suppose Ebon Plague-bringer is much better "utility"

There is no more utility in Frost than there is in Unholy or any spec for any other class. I'm happy you found a good use for HB+Glyph+Chillblains; that doesn't automatically turn Frost into a utility oriented tree nor does it make Frost provide more utility that Unholy.

The hard facts remain that Unholy DOES have more true utility talents than Frost, they just have more general use and so they don't stand out (hint: Imp. AMS is a utility talent).

[fizikz]

Instead of bickering back and forth, why don't you show some kind of source for making the outrageous claim that X dps spec should not measure up to Y spec because it's merely a "utility spec" ? Honestly, if you can find one that says as much, especially about frost vs unholy, I'd give you a million internets.

if on the other hand you want to just keep bickering back and forth I'll have NO CHOICE but to /popcorn.

[RabbitPrime]

Instead of bickering back and forth, why don't you show some kind of source for making the outrageous claim that X dps spec should not measure up to Y spec because it's merely a "utility spec" ? Honestly, if you can find one that says as much, especially about frost vs unholy, I'd give you a million internets.

if on the other hand you want to just keep bickering back and forth I'll have NO CHOICE but to /popcorn.

Save your popcorn.

[fizikz]

Save your popcorn.

I'm afraid it's FAR too late for that.

/popcorn

[cFortyfive]

Instead of bickering back and forth, why don't you show some kind of source for making the outrageous claim that X dps spec should not measure up to Y spec because it's merely a "utility spec" ? Honestly, if you can find one that says as much, especially about frost vs unholy, I'd give you a million internets.

if on the other hand you want to just keep bickering back and forth I'll have NO CHOICE but to /popcorn.

Well not really agreeing on anything in this topic but maybe the fact that demonology has been in said utility/support situation for quite some time - intended or not.

[Breyers]

There is no more utility in Frost than there is in Unholy or any spec for any other class. I'm happy you found a good use for HB+Glyph+Chillblains; that doesn't automatically turn Frost into a utility oriented tree nor does it make Frost provide more utility that Unholy.

The hard facts remain that Unholy DOES have more true utility talents than Frost, they just have more general use and so they don't stand out (hint: Imp. AMS is a utility talent).

I guess when I think of Utility, I think of things that generally buff or benefit the entire raid.

Ebon Plague-bringer seems to be about the only one for Unholy (Beside AMZ which most Dks ignore)

Icy Talons
Endless Winter (Free interupts)
Brittle Bones
Hungering Cold (Add Control)
Chillblains (Also Add control)

I guess some of it could be considered fight specific, but can be extremely useful or "utility" none-theless.

Define: Utility - Utility is something or someone, who has the quality of being of practical in use, in various scenarios or situations

[fizikz]

Well not really agreeing on anything in this topic but maybe the fact that demonology has been in said utility/support situation for quite some time - intended or not.

Spriests and survival hunters used to be the raid buff bitches/mana batteries too. both "utility" specs. both were done away with, with much bitching and moaning and I'm too lazy to look for the source, but I recall blizz saying they were doing away with specs like that, and making everything competitive - to the best of their ability, anyway.

---------- Post added 2011-02-13 at 03:47 AM ----------

I guess when I think of Utility, I think of things that generally buff or benefit the entire raid.

Ebon Plague-bringer seems to be about the only one for Unholy (Beside AMZ which most Dks ignore)

Icy Talons
Endless Winter (Free interupts)
Brittle Bones
Hungering Cold (Add Control)
Chillblains (Also Add control)

I guess some of it could be considered fight specific, but can be extremely useful or "utility" none-theless.

Define: Utility - Utility is something or someone, who has the quality of being of practical in use, in various scenarios or situations

Even if frost has utility, that has nothing to do with blizzard INTENDING it to be behind UH in damage, as you claim.

[Nartalath]

I'm pretty sure the OP has started a couple QQ threads about the DK changes today...

u mad bro?

[Breyers]

Spriests and survival hunters used to be the raid buff bitches/mana batteries too. both "utility" specs. both were done away with, with much bitching and moaning and I'm too lazy to look for the source, but I recall blizz saying they were doing away with specs like that, and making everything competitive - to the best of their ability, anyway.

True, but I'M discussing Utility within a CLASS, not within ALL classes.

Demonology may have similar buffs that other classes (Elemental Shaman for example) have, but WITHIN the Warlock class, they are still more of a raid utility than Destruction.

Even if frost has utility, that has nothing to do with blizzard INTENDING it to be behind UH in damage, as you claim.

Perhaps not intended initially, but with a quick look at Demonology locks, they have yet to be competitive with Destruction in Cataclysm, or Affliction in Wrath. I'm not sure if that's Blizzard wanting to keep them the Utility of the 3 specs, or their inability to fix it.

[RabbitPrime]

I guess when I think of Utility, I think of things that generally buff or benefit the entire raid.

Ebon Plague-bringer seems to be about the only one for Unholy (Beside AMZ which most Dks ignore)

Icy Talons
Endless Winter (Free interupts)
Brittle Bones
Hungering Cold (Add Control)
Chillblains (Also Add control)

I guess some of it could be considered fight specific, but can be extremely useful or "utility" none-theless,

Ebon Plague
Endless Winter (available to Unholy if they really need it for a fight)
Contagion+Disease Damage+Mastery+DnD+BB (add control)
Desecration (also add control)

You have no argument. There is no clear utility gain in Frost.

[Cjros]

Wait, Enhancement, and Arms, and Combat, and Hunter, are those the 3, long-lost Death Knight specs?

Considering DKs at launch got everything all of those specs asked for to bring them inline to others in both PvE and PvP, yes, yes they are.

[Breyers]

Ebon Plague
Endless Winter (available to Unholy if they really need it for a fight)
Contagion+Disease Damage+Mastery+DnD+BB (add control)
Desecration (also add control)

You have no argument. There is no clear utility gain in Frost.

Almost every fight has some mechanic where interupts are useful, so go permanent frost sub-spec, see how well you do as Unholy.

You go and Desecration and spread all those diseases, on Cho'gal's Oozes.

Also, Chillblains causes everything infected with Frost Fever to be slowed 25/50 percent, the ONLY way Desecration could be competitive, is if it did the same, instead of only slowing them within a small area.

Also go slow the adds on Nefarian with Desecration, see how long before they are running 150% faster.

[RabbitPrime]

Almost every fight has some mechanic where interupts are useful, so go permanent frost sub-spec, see how well you do as Unholy.

You go and Desecration and spread all those diseases, on Cho'gal's Oozes.

Also, Chillblains causes everything infected with Frost Fever to be slowed 25/50 percent, the ONLY way Desecration could be competitive, is if it did the same, instead of only slowing them within a small area.

Also go slow the adds on Nefarian with Desecration, see how long before they are running 150% faster.

You miss the point, there is no unique utility in the Frost tree. It is not a utility tree, it is equal in utility and DPS to Unholy.

[Breyers]

You miss the point, there is no unique utility in the Frost tree. It is not a utility tree, it is equal in utility and DPS to Unholy.

Unholy has much less utility (and less practical in use)

Desecration requries you to get in Melee range, and only puts a small pool where they are slowed, whereas Chillblains is applied from Range, as an AoE, and lasts as long as Frost Fever, and can easily be reapplied.

Endless Winter will NEVER be practical for Unholy.

Brittle Bones (Unholy CANNOT do this, only another class)

Icy Talons (Unholy CANNOT do this, only another class)


Unholy has Ebon Plague-bringer, that is it (Not saying it isn't good, but it's one Utility that is practical)
Edit: They also have AMZ, but most Unholy Dks don't spec for it.

[Deleted]

Unholy has much less utility (and less practical in use)

Desecration requries you to get in Melee range, and only puts a small pool where they are slowed, whereas Chillblains is applied from Range, as an AoE, and lasts as long as Frost Fever, and can easily be reapplied.

Endless Winter will NEVER be practical for Unholy.

Brittle Bones (Unholy CANNOT do this, only another class)

Icy Talons (Unholy CANNOT do this, only another class)


Unholy has Ebon Plague-bringer, that is it (Not saying it isn't good, but it's one Utility that is practical)
Edit: They also have AMZ, but most Unholy Dks don't spec for it.

You, my good sir, are as smart as a starfish. You might want to google that.

[OnlineSamantha]

Unholy has much less utility (and less practical in use)

Desecration requries you to get in Melee range, and only puts a small pool where they are slowed, whereas Chillblains is applied from Range, as an AoE, and lasts as long as Frost Fever, and can easily be reapplied.

Endless Winter will NEVER be practical for Unholy.

Brittle Bones (Unholy CANNOT do this, only another class)

Icy Talons (Unholy CANNOT do this, only another class)


Unholy has Ebon Plague-bringer, that is it (Not saying it isn't good, but it's one Utility that is practical)
Edit: They also have AMZ, but most Unholy Dks don't spec for it.

That's the thing about utility. You HAVE to sacrifice something for it. You say most people don't spec in AMZ, but if they have to get that utility, they must use those talents. It's the same with Endless Winter.
Do you think any Frost Death Knight would spec into Chillblains for a pure stand-still fight? No, but it's utility, so some will get it.

[Roose]

I guess when I think of Utility, I think of things that generally buff or benefit the entire raid.

Ebon Plague-bringer seems to be about the only one for Unholy (Beside AMZ which most Dks ignore) - frost has to spend points for their utility

Icy Talons - benefits only physical damage and a nice haste buff
Endless Winter (Free interupts) - at the cost of 2 talent points.
Brittle Bones - only helps physical damage and straight up strength buff.
Hungering Cold (Add Control) rarely works on raid boss adds
Chillblains (Also Add control) - costs 2 talent points and is strictly situational

I guess some or most of it could be considered fight specific, but can be extremely useful or "utility" none-theless.

Define: Utility - Utility is something or someone, who has the quality of being of practical in use, in various scenarios or situations

Both of you arguing are essentially wrong because the ideal use of the utility talents should strictly be on a fight-to-fight basis. There is no utility tree, just utility talents. It would be foolish to narrow your view on either spec as being the "utility" spec. From what I have seen, most top DKs have both specs and change them up depending on what is needed. However, that was before HB got its aoe nerfed almost in half, so I imagine most will stick to unholy on fights they used to swap to frost.

Flexibility is key. Utility talents are very situational and almost always come with an opportunity cost. Carrying around utility at the cost of DPS is detrimental unless that utility talent is being used to its maximum potential at all times. That simply is not the case. That is why there is no utility tree, just utility talents.

[Deleted]

and lasts as long as Frost Fever

rofl

Brittle Bones (Unholy CANNOT do this, only another class)

Icy Talons (Unholy CANNOT do this, only another class)

Yeah, that's right... other class. You're not alone in raid huh? When somebody provide the same buff that you have, you are no longer needed that much as an "utility spec".

They also have AMZ, but most Unholy Dks don't spec for it.

Most Frost dks don't spec for Chilblans too?

[Zao]

Okay. This has gone way offtopic. Not to mention that even the OP was a rather overdone subject.

/locked.