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  1. #21
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitlam View Post
    This is only partially true. You aren't assessing the potion buff as a DPS increase when comparing it to Theralion's Mirror.

    A 40% bonus to a Volcanic Potion should not be disregarded
    Yes it should.

    Because it doesn't happen.

    Kindly read the trinket. "Increases the effect that healing and mana potions have on the wearer by 40%"

    Healing and mana potions. Not any of the stat potions.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Yes it should.

    Because it doesn't happen.

    Healing and mana potions. Not any of the stat potions.
    /fail

    Deepest apologies.


    It's 17%, how you get there is your business.

  3. #23
    Great guide, tyvm. Created an account just to reply. I have been playing an Alliance Shaman since BC and I have always topped or been near the top of charts. Lately I have been getting schooled by the other dpsers in the guild where they can easily push 15k-16k and I'm sitting at 12k. So I read your guide and I'm excited by what I learned. I mean I spend a lot of time doing utility and moving; that's where this guide has really helped me.

    The biggest thing I think for me is changing back to the mindset of raid PvE vs. solo and heroics. Glyph of Flame Shock only matters on bosses, Earthbind totem rooting, etc.. Switching out my Frost Shock button for UE for PvE. I know I'll lose credibility for saying it, but I didn't have Glyph of Flame Shock. I haven't even tested it yet, but after a few nights of frustrating DPS numbers I know it will be HUGE.

    I really like the Stoneclaw suggestion; I do NOT use Thunderstorm on CD, maybe more like once a minute when I notice my mana getting below 2/3 or so.

    I came here with the question of what am I doing wrong? The freeze frame tidbit on FE helped a lot. Questions I have for you guys are similar to that mechanic: Does Searing Totem update with your current sp? Flame Shock?

    Really that question segues into my question about trinkets. Right now I have the JC figurine, normal Theralion's and a DMC:V. The DMC:V procs in the first few casts as anyone with it can attest; if I pop Searing Totem and Flame Shock, will they be updated with the buff ? Similar question to UE: Does anyone know if affects the DoT dmg or just the DD? I'm moving in enough fights that if their stats are "fixed" upon cast I should always UE+FS when moving.

    I have heard that the JC figurine is better than Theralion's... but is heroic Theralion's better than the JC trinket?

    The last thing I think I'm gonna do after sitting at this dummy for a bit (12.5k w/o EM for 6 min yay!) is get those power auras you use. Hitting 9 charges wayyy too often. Look up and right for LS, look up and left for searing totem and near my cast bar for Flame Shock... Too much pertinent info too far apart.

    Again, great great guide. Only thing is I'd maybe suggest highlighting Stoneclaw a bit more. Throughout the guide you talk about not having mana issues.... I agree. I mean I just sat here at this dummy and chain casted for 10 minutes and got to 40%. Zero tstorms. And generally when I'm moving, I feel like I could use a shield. I use GotN when its up but that totem is cheap as hell and we have no other real earth totems.

    Edit: Just did the Flame Shock and it definitely affects the whole cast, at least with UE. Got one raid dummy ticking at 1777, one at 1655. So yeah, its definitely fixed upon cast, now have 3 different DoT ticks going. UE+DMC:V had the highest. I assume Searing Totem is the same? So then I my question becomes about pulling mechanics.

    Pulling with all totems and down, full mana. Searing totem first? It will bug and I'll have to recast.... 2 LBs first to trigger clearcasting/DMC:V, pop EM/trinket and then FS, LvB, ST? Or just FS, LvB, ST, pop CDs and go?
    Last edited by yakatuus; 2011-02-15 at 10:52 AM.

  4. #24
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yakatuus View Post
    I came here with the question of what am I doing wrong? The freeze frame tidbit on FE helped a lot. Questions I have for you guys are similar to that mechanic: Does Searing Totem update with your current sp? Flame Shock?
    Searing totem I'm actually unsure of, but I don't believe so. Flame Shock definitely doesn't; all spells cast by you adjust automatically with changes in your stats, so DoTs will jump up or down in damage per tick as you gain/lose buffs.

    Really that question segues into my question about trinkets. Right now I have the JC figurine, normal Theralion's and a DMC:V. The DMC:V procs in the first few casts as anyone with it can attest; if I pop Searing Totem and Flame Shock, will they be updated with the buff ? Similar question to UE: Does anyone know if affects the DoT dmg or just the DD? I'm moving in enough fights that if their stats are "fixed" upon cast I should always UE+FS when moving.

    I have heard that the JC figurine is better than Theralion's... but is heroic Theralion's better than the JC trinket?
    Regular Theralion's is better than the JC trinket. I've got a section on trinkets to write up for questions like this, but the latest info I know of is here (Totemspot forum link)

    It's really tight, but Theralion's Mirror comes out slightly ahead.

    That assumes BiS gear, though. You can use Simulationcraft to get your own personal stat values and plug them into the spreadsheet for more personally accurate info, which may change the scaling.[/quote]


    The last thing I think I'm gonna do after sitting at this dummy for a bit (12.5k w/o EM for 6 min yay!) is get those power auras you use. Hitting 9 charges wayyy too often. Look up and right for LS, look up and left for searing totem and near my cast bar for Flame Shock... Too much pertinent info too far apart.
    That's why my UI is entirely custom. The auras should give you pretty much every major piece of info you need in a couple relatively close areas.

    Again, great great guide. Only thing is I'd maybe suggest highlighting Stoneclaw a bit more.
    I have a secret.

    I hate Stoneclaw Totem. Passionately. It doesn't scale with gear, and the shield amount is relatively small. We need a decent defensive CD, and Stoneclaw isn't it.

    But it's what we've got, which is why it gets the spot in the guide. Despite my seething hatred.

    Edit: Just did the Flame Shock and it definitely affects the whole cast, at least with UE. Got one raid dummy ticking at 1777, one at 1655. So yeah, its definitely fixed upon cast, now have 3 different DoT ticks going. UE+DMC:V had the highest. I assume Searing Totem is the same? So then I my question becomes about pulling mechanics.
    UE affects the next fire spell, not your own stats, so it will affect the entire cast duration. Intellect procs like DMC:V will spike the DoT damage while they're up, but it will fall back down as the proc expires.

    Pulling with all totems and down, full mana. Searing totem first? It will bug and I'll have to recast.... 2 LBs first to trigger clearcasting/DMC:V, pop EM/trinket and then FS, LvB, ST? Or just FS, LvB, ST, pop CDs and go?
    I FS and pop totems as I run into position, UE as well if I have a third GCD to burn. It's useful to drop a fire totem before the pull, for the 10% spellpower buff, but make sure you've got a second for your mana to top off first.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jermo22 View Post
    Yeah, never gem for hit or spirit straight generally. U want to use 3 gems only pretty much which are the +40 int, 20int and 20haste, and 20int and 20 spirit where u can. U can ALWAYS reforge to get spirit/hit so i would replace those gems. Since our stat priority still has haste over mastery i wouldnt reforge haste to spirit, i would reforge mastery to spirit/hit instead. Reforge haste last. But if you change ur gems and reforge that mastery i think you will be fine.

    ps You might want to enchant ur gloves.
    Thanks for your reply, should I stay with my 208 hit gem in my engineering head or try reforging to get hit cap.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Regular Theralion's is better than the JC trinket. I've got a section on trinkets to write up for questions like this, but the latest info I know of is here (Totemspot forum link)
    Did you count JC trinket with Fire Elemental? The extra 1400 SP on Fire Elemental might outweigh Theralion's since they are already so close.

  7. #27
    Quick question: Which results in more DPS?

    Using Unleash Elements for a Flame Shock, or using it for a Lava Burst (assuming FS is up of course)?

  8. #28
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shampache View Post
    Did you count JC trinket with Fire Elemental? The extra 1400 SP on Fire Elemental might outweigh Theralion's since they are already so close.
    It's not optimal to open with FE on a lot of fights, and timing it with the trinket later on is awkward and leads to lost DPS almost all the time. It might push the serpent higher for those fights you CAN start with the FE, but you'll still be better off in general with Theralion's Mirror.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strongheart View Post
    Quick question: Which results in more DPS?

    Using Unleash Elements for a Flame Shock, or using it for a Lava Burst (assuming FS is up of course)?
    Other factors are more important. If you're popping UE as you run in at the start of a fight, do UE-FS. In the middle of a fight, you should be popping UE when appropriate, not trying to time it against other abilities; if Flame Shock needs refreshing, it's because it's about to fall off and would likely BE off by the time your LvB casts and hits the target. So you should UE-FS. If it's NOT about to fall off, the DPS you lose in clipping outweighs the gain from UE, and you should've hit LvB instead.

  9. #29
    Well isnt it better just to FS then UE and then LvB? Thats what I am doing while moving to the healing spot on bosses like Chimaeron. And then on the spot, dps untill its the poison, then stop and recast totems.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by frallan123 View Post
    Thanks for your reply, should I stay with my 208 hit gem in my engineering head or try reforging to get hit cap.
    Unless you can reforge that hit from items, which I think you can, keep it until you get something. I think you have enough that you'll be surprised.
    If you ever get into an argument and feel that is going south, just say the word "Hodor" in a soft, deep voice, a couple of times.

  11. #31
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    Well isnt it better just to FS then UE and then LvB? Thats what I am doing while moving to the healing spot on bosses like Chimaeron. And then on the spot, dps untill its the poison, then stop and recast totems.
    Only if your FS has ~1-2 seconds left on its DoT when you start moving. Otherwise you're clipping ticks and losing DPS. If you've got more than 5 seconds left on the DoT, it should be ES, UE, LvB. Even if you're in that ~3 second window, you'd be better off refreshing Searing first than clipping FS, or hitting UE then Thunderstorm for mana.

    Don't clip Flame Shock.

  12. #32

    Question about gear

    As my main spec is resto, the elemental talent which converts spirit into hit is great but I have some questions regarding spirit gear. Does spirit sacrifice other stats? I looked at a necklace I got in a dungeon which has haste and mastery, but when I looked at resto necklace which has spirit, it only had crit. I was in the process of gathering another identical resto set which I could use for dps, but if spirit sacrifices other stats then Im worried that I might miss out on A LOT other stats. Also this might complicate gearing for my elemental spec.

  13. #33
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Spirit is a secondary stat like any other. Every piece of gear has a certain number of "points" based on its item level that gets split between the secondary stats. So yes, a piece of gear with 150 Haste and Spirit is equivalent to a piece with 150 Crit and Mastery, itemization wise.

  14. #34
    Endus small question, you advice agaisnt using EM+BL but is that considering it also gives +15% dmg and not only haste now?
    I was assuming that aslong as we wherent pushing Lb under 1s it would be more eficient to combine them if possible.

  15. #35
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rulerdragon View Post
    Endus small question, you advice agaisnt using EM+BL but is that considering it also gives +15% dmg and not only haste now?
    I was assuming that aslong as we wherent pushing Lb under 1s it would be more eficient to combine them if possible.
    You can do it for burn phases where you absolutely need the best performance in that 45 second period possible, like the final phases of Chimaeron or Cho'gall, but if it's not a burn phase, the loss of benefit from Haste mitigates the boost. It's still a buff, and you'll still do better damage, but not quite as much as you would if you used them separately.

  16. #36
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    great guide (again) i'm glad you included a lot of the discussion from the last guide. 4 sections i think you need to add (and i think you already mentioned one of them and touched briefly on the others) especialy since this is an ele101 type guide:

    Trinket list (since the maths am are has hard >.<, not really, but people seem to be lazy/not understand how easy it is)
    Using UE correctly
    Opening Rotation (with/without UE, etc)
    Tips for Specific boss fights, (searing totems on omni, glyphing for CL on Magmaw if your guild dps's worms, using swg and ue for amazing dps on V&T, being the guilds new favorite person on nefP2, etc)

    i'm sure there are a bajillion other sections to add, but i think these would be good for new(er) players, especially ones just getting into progression.

    Question: does ST snapshot the same way FE does? i thought it worked like a regular dot... if so, then recasting searing totem early in the fight (re:bug) may no longer be a bad thing...among other useful times to recast!! ?¿

    Perhaps a section on how certain things like spell power fluctuate the damage of stuff like fs dots, while other things are 'snapshots', such as UE/EM damage boosts or FE casts?!?!?!?!

    -----

    Final note: FE bug must have been fixed, can't find any undue misses this week.
    Last edited by Mr.Pineapple; 2011-02-17 at 12:27 AM. Reason: highlighted the only important part of my post
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  17. #37
    From 10 min at raid dummies:

    Searing Totem definitely updates as your sp changes. 2650 at 10k sp... 2200 at 8200 sp. Interestingly it also appears to be affected by clearcasting, haste, and elemental mastery so I would assume crit as well.

    The damage variance on Fire Elemental plus the long cooldown makes it difficult to test quickly

    Flame Shock definitely does NOT update as your sp changes. This seems to be a particular effect of dots; as your dot is cast, it does X dmg. Dotting up multiple raid dummies shows this pretty quickly. Once you start to think of the mechanics its easy to see how the processing would go up if you had to recalculate buffs in real time with all those debuffs. But your pet has a set of statistics based on your stats which is updated in real time. Again this is easier on processing than having to keep stats for a pet in a database that you would have to reference and destroy upon every recasting.

    Saying that... it also is evident pretty quickly that the Fire Elemental does not diminish swing or spell dmg as I drop these SP buffs. So it must have an actor table created.


    I just got a heart to go with my DMC:V and man is it tough to get 5 casts off w/o DMC:V proccing. I assume that is intended, so it makes a very narrow window to drop FE totem if you are at the start of a fight. As noted earlier, this is useful in few (if any) fights. But this generally makes for a good case for this opening (with these trinkets) UE, FS, LvB, ST, LB, EM + trinket. This is also assuming you have a fire totem down already; I've just been trying to figure out where to drop a non bugged ST. What's nice about that setup too is that everything should come off cooldown around the 6 - 6.5 min mark, allowing you to pot hero and FE, which hopefully should be more useful than trying to catch them all at the beginning.

    All in all it seems that any difference in FS damage is basically negligible. Perhaps 200 dps. Simply making sure it is up seems to be enough, and if you have a buff (EM or trinket proc etc) it seems you'd get much more damage our of an Earth Shock anyway.

  18. #38
    Thanks Endus for this great guide, only one small question...

    With Overload LBs and CLs now producing Rolling Thunder charges, doesn't Mastery become a stronger stat than Haste?

  19. #39
    Nop. Mastery is still in theorycraft ( as in runed by simulation ) in almost all situations at least 5%-10% under haste. Intellect is easly twice the stat then haste or mastery.

  20. #40
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blueprint19 View Post
    Thanks Endus for this great guide, only one small question...

    With Overload LBs and CLs now producing Rolling Thunder charges, doesn't Mastery become a stronger stat than Haste?
    It gets caught up closer to haste. Simming my own gear, Haste pulls ahead, but other people have simmed Mastery to be pretty much the same priority as Haste. Really, we're at a point right now where your current stats will make the difference as to your stat priority, so you should learn to use a decent simulator (like simulationcraft, but don't use maxdps.com as it isn't updated often or well), if you want accurate info.

    Mastery was weaker than haste, so these changes are catching it up to Haste, but not (yet) pushing it much further. Binkenstein, over at Totemspot, ran some sims in, I believe, BiS gear and has Mastery at SLIGHTLY better than Haste at that point, but they're still so close that it makes no noticeable difference.

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