Elemental FAQ (updated for 4.3)

[Paf]

I think bink wrote somewhere that the LB glyph doesnt work on overloads and the LvB glyph works, wich makes the LvB glyph slightly better. Is this still the case or is it fixed?
thanks

Last I bothered to check (recently), it's still that way. Of course, this is very, very easy to check by yourself.

[Endus]

I think bink wrote somewhere that the LB glyph doesnt work on overloads and the LvB glyph works, wich makes the LvB glyph slightly better. Is this still the case or is it fixed?
thanks

That's still the case, but it was more important from the perspective of needing to get simulationcraft updated to reflect that (which it has been). If you're not sure, you should still be running sims to determine which is best. It's PROBABLY LvB, but that's not a given, nor is it a huge margin.

[binkenstein]

That's still the case, but it was more important from the perspective of needing to get simulationcraft updated to reflect that (which it has been). If you're not sure, you should still be running sims to determine which is best. It's PROBABLY LvB, but that's not a given, nor is it a huge margin.

They were roughly even prior to the glyph change, so it'll generally be LvB now.

[Deleted]

As an elemental shaman with no access to dragonwrath, what weapon from heroic DS would be best in slot?

[Pope]

As an elemental shaman with no access to dragonwrath, what weapon from heroic DS would be best in slot?

Just for your convenience Wowhead-comparison. I can't give you the answer, though. I guess I'd use Rathrak...

whoops, forgot to include timepiece... well it's equal to the offhand

[Paf]

As an elemental shaman with no access to dragonwrath, what weapon from heroic DS would be best in slot?

h-Rathrak/h-Off-Hand > h-Rathrak/n-Off-Hand > h-Vagaries/h-Off-Hand > h-Lightning Rod > h-Visage > h-Vagaries/n-Off-Hand

I am not sure on Ti'tahk, but quick napkin math says it might be between h-Rath/n-Off and h-Vag/h-Off.

[Endus]

h-Rathrak/h-Off-Hand > h-Rathrak/n-Off-Hand > h-Vagaries/h-Off-Hand > h-Lightning Rod > h-Visage > h-Vagaries/n-Off-Hand

I am not sure on Ti'tahk, but quick napkin math says it might be between h-Rath/n-Off and h-Vag/h-Off.

Ti'tahk also depends on your raid. If you're the only Ti'tahk user and you've got a bunch of other casters, it will be more useful than if you had three casters all with Ti'tahk or you were the only one in range for the buff. That makes it a bit harder to be really explicitly clear about its value.

[Riverness]

How do you feel about h-Rathrak/h-OH outperforming DTR, Endus?

I simmed my character and it was about 1k dps increase.. Yet I simmed it again with some ping and player handicap or something, DTR came up higher by 1k dps...

Also Bink, did totemspot suffer a data wipe?

[Endus]

How do you feel about h-Rathrak/h-OH outperforming DTR, Endus?

Depends on your item level and such; DTR copies your spells so it scales up with your gear to a greater extend than any other weapon does. This doesn't mean it scales forever, but as you gear up, it should take over again as BiS, if it isn't currently.

As for Totemspot, as far as I know Binkenstein just moved it to a different forum platform, and only transferred the most recent posts. But I'm not in on the fine details, that's just what I gleaned from the official announcement.

[binkenstein]

Also Bink, did totemspot suffer a data wipe?

No? Why do you say that?

[Endus]

No? Why do you say that?

Far as I can tell, because of the site change. I think I implied you didn't transfer everything though, and that's actually not true; it's just that the default forum settings just show threads from the last month. Everything is still there (I think) if you expand that timeframe.

[Deleted]

Hai guys, I have two questions,

1) I'm not the best with SimCraft so I'm basically interested in finding out whether Insignia of the Corrupted Mind (Haste proc trinket) is better than Cunning of the Cruel on single target fights. I was under the impression that Cunning edged out on Insignia even on fights like Ultraxion and Morchok - due both to dps with Insignia's huge iCD, and also factors such as the haste proc requiring you to be constantly casting for its duration in order to gain the highest return whilst Cunning is instant etc. Is this correct?

edit: quote from a comment on Cunning HC Wowhead page by Jjanchan,
The current version of SimulationCraft (as of this post) lists this trinket as 2nd Best in Slot (after Will of Unbinding) for Elemental Shamans. Given the high spell power coefficient of the proc, the short (30 second) internal cooldown of the proc, and the large amounts of haste ele shamans have already in best-in-slot Tier 13 gear, it is superior to Insignia of the Corrupted Mind.


2) I understand how Haste works, however in regards to Flame Shock breakpoints and haste increasing its duration after them, is there anywhere that lists the breakpoints at which the duration resets (and therefore the value of haste drops again) without simming individual gear? Am I right in thinking that the point at which the duration resets is equal between two breakpoints, i.e. raid buffed haste required for 11 ticks is 1423, 12 ticks is 2781, so the duration reset breakpoint between 11 and 12 ticks is 2102 haste? (<- the exact point between the two breakpoints) meaning that the value of haste will drop again after 2102 haste -- or is it more complicated than that?

Many thanks, Platex
(Platilumix, The Maelstrom EU)

[Endus]

Hai guys, I have two questions,

1) I'm not the best with SimCraft so I'm basically interested in finding out whether Insignia of the Corrupted Mind (Haste proc trinket) is better than Cunning of the Cruel on single target fights. I was under the impression that Cunning edged out on Insignia even on fights like Ultraxion and Morchok - due both to dps with Insignia's huge iCD, and also factors such as the haste proc requiring you to be constantly casting for its duration in order to gain the highest return whilst Cunning is instant etc. Is this correct?

edit: quote from a comment on Cunning HC Wowhead page by Jjanchan,
The current version of SimulationCraft (as of this post) lists this trinket as 2nd Best in Slot (after Will of Unbinding) for Elemental Shamans. Given the high spell power coefficient of the proc, the short (30 second) internal cooldown of the proc, and the large amounts of haste ele shamans have already in best-in-slot Tier 13 gear, it is superior to Insignia of the Corrupted Mind.

You'll need to sim it. There's a quick mini-guide to running simcraft to get those results in the FAQ. The comment you cite is correct, for BiS, but at less than BiS gear, it might be different, and you should be simming it to be sure.

2) I understand how Haste works, however in regards to Flame Shock breakpoints and haste increasing its duration after them, is there anywhere that lists the breakpoints at which the duration resets (and therefore the value of haste drops again) without simming individual gear? Am I right in thinking that the point at which the duration resets is equal between two breakpoints, i.e. raid buffed haste required for 11 ticks is 1423, 12 ticks is 2781, so the duration reset breakpoint between 11 and 12 ticks is 2102 haste? (<- the exact point between the two breakpoints) meaning that the value of haste will drop again after 2102 haste -- or is it more complicated than that?

Many thanks, Platex
(Platilumix, The Maelstrom EU)

It's more complicated than that.

Elemental actually gets more benefit out of Haste from a longer-duration Flame Shock, allowing more hasted casts between FS casts, meaning the value of Haste doesn't drop at those breakpoints, it spikes. And then scales more slowly from that point to the next breakpoint, where it will spike significantly again.

Most DoT classes that love Haste are focused on breakpoints, because going past that breakpoint means a sudden dip in value so that going JUST over the breakpoint is usually a bad idea. Elemental is the opposite; as you get closer to the breakpoint, Haste is losing value, and if you can pass it, you want to add as much more Haste as you can. It's the exact opposite of most other DoT classes.

The Haste duration breakpoints are the same as the tick breakpoints. FS lasts for its number of ticks times the duration of a tick. The moment you add a 12th tick, the FS duration extends to allow for it. The halfway bit you're thinking of applies in calculating those tick breakpoints; FS will get shorter until it's half a tick behind 27 (glyphed) seconds, and then it will add a tick and be half a tick above that point.

[Deleted]

You'll need to sim it. There's a quick mini-guide to running simcraft to get those results in the FAQ. The comment you cite is correct, for BiS, but at less than BiS gear, it might be different, and you should be simming it to be sure.

Awesome! I personally gear for BiS gear, unfortunately not having access to every trinket drop. My guild use DKP so it's possible, but I would imagine that it will be the case for most players that they would not chase buying a piece of gear as rare as the trinkets when it isn't BiS, especially in a loot council system where it would be a waste of the trinket if another class needs it as BiS, and the shaman would just replace it with Cunning later.

My question mainly stemmed from having another shaman on my realm telling me that the Haste trinket was BiS on single target fights, because he "read World of Logs". I didn't think it was true.

Elemental is the opposite; as you get closer to the breakpoint, Haste is losing value, and if you can pass it, you want to add as much more Haste as you can. It's the exact opposite of most other DoT classes.

This is the point, I want to know the points after which Haste begins to start losing value, I.E. the value of adding more Haste is less than adding Mastery, without Simming. I'm wondering if there is a resource, site or graph etc that shows this without me simming my gear all the time? *hopeful* or more importantly, not gear based - I'm talking about a chart that has every +1 point of Haste plotted showing the spikes and where it slows down, not just based on the specific gear you plug into the sim. I know this sounds lazy, but it's more that I don't know Simcraft indepth enough to accurately produce it myself, and it would be pointless if someone has already done it (or knows it well enough that they could wack it out in a few minutes).

The Haste duration breakpoints are the same as the tick breakpoints. FS lasts for its number of ticks times the duration of a tick. The moment you add a 12th tick, the FS duration extends to allow for it.

So what you're saying is that the duration was fixed, and that haste makes it move past this, gains an extra tick, then moves past until a halfway point, at which it resets to 26 seconds (losing its rate of value), then more haste will achieve another additional tick again (as I thought). OR are you saying (as the first part of that quote suggests) that the reset to 26 seconds is the point at which it gains another tick ? I'm getting 29 (30 clipped) second Flame Shocks with combinations of my 4p bonus, I just wanted the exact values at which point the duration drops from 29 seconds to 26 (thus haste falling in value? ) so that it's easier in the long term to know how much haste I should reforge to, factoring in 4p procs, without simming countless times. I'm presuming that the "extra tick" will always lie somewhere around just before the 28 second duration mark. But if the latter instance (ticks gained at 26 second duration) was true, then the 29 second Flame shocks would occur from a lower value haste, and striving after longer duration FS doesn't make sense - I'm just seeking confirmation.

Many thanks once again,
Platex

[Endus]

My question mainly stemmed from having another shaman on my realm telling me that the Haste trinket was BiS on single target fights, because he "read World of Logs". I didn't think it was true.

It's not, really. They're really, REALLY close in value on single target.

This is the point, I want to know the points after which Haste begins to start losing value, I.E. the value of adding more Haste is less than adding Mastery, without Simming.

It's not that simple. There's the breakpoints, which are easy enough to work out, but otherwise, it's interrelated with the other stats you've got.

You'd need graphs that plotted every point of haste against every point of Mastery and every point of Crit and every point of Intellect and every trinket proc, etc. It's not easy, which is why we use the sim, because that IS the easy way.

So what you're saying is that the duration was fixed, and that haste makes it move past this, gains an extra tick, then moves past until a halfway point, at which it resets to 26 seconds (losing its rate of value), then more haste will achieve another additional tick again (as I thought). OR are you saying (as the first part of that quote suggests) that the reset to 26 seconds is the point at which it gains another tick ? I'm getting 29 (30 clipped) second Flame Shocks with combinations of my 4p bonus, I just wanted the exact values at which point the duration drops from 29 seconds to 26 (thus haste falling in value? ) so that it's easier in the long term to know how much haste I should reforge to, factoring in 4p procs, without simming countless times. I'm presuming that the "extra tick" will always lie somewhere around just before the 28 second duration mark. But if the latter instance (ticks gained at 26 second duration) was true, then the 29 second Flame shocks would occur from a lower value haste, and striving after longer duration FS doesn't make sense - I'm just seeking confirmation.

The easiest way to visualize it, IMO, is like this;

First, there's how long Flame Shock wants to be. That's 27 seconds, glyphed. This number never changes.
How long Flame Shock actually is, is determined by the number of ticks, and the length of a tick. This starts at 9 ticks, at 3 seconds a tick. This works out to 27 seconds total, and Flame Shock is happy.

Now, we add Haste. Ticks get shorter, and the actual duration gets shorter as a result, getting further from the 27 seconds it wants to be. This gets down almost (not quite) to 25.5 seconds, and then Flame Shock "realizes" that it has to make a choice; if it keeps going lower, it keeps getting further away, but if it ADDS a tick, it will be just as much above 27 seconds as it currently is, and getting closer. So it goes to 10 ticks, and the duration rounds up to 28.5 seconds (just under). Then it keeps getting closer to 27 seconds, whizzes by, and the process repeats for 11 and 12 ticks and so on, with increasing Haste, never dipping quite as low or going quite as high, because it only goes as low as 0.5 a tick, and then pops to 0.5 a tick above the 27 second mark.


If you want the actual hard math, Binkenstein's got it over at Totemspot.com;

Loosely, where H = Haste percentage, D = base duration, t = base number of ticks, and T = tick time (my labels are different because I like single letters for variables)

D/H/t=T

D is always 27 seconds for glyphed Flame Shock, and t is always 9.

If we want to know the exact Haste value where you add a tick (and therefore bump from a short duration to a long one), we enter the values.

27/H/9=T

Now you plug in values. At 20% Haste, it looks like this;

27/1.20/9=2.50

Now, how many ticks do we actually get?

27/2.50 = 10.8

Because it's over 10.5, we round up to 11 ticks. Actual duration; 11*2.50=27.5 seconds at 20% haste, with 11 ticks.

By fiddling around, you can find the breakpoints. The first is when Haste hits 7/6 of normal; 1.1666666666 and so on. If you punch it into the equation as a fraction;

27/(7/6)/9=T

The easy way to calculate that is to remember that you can divide by multiplying by the inverse; dividing by 7/6 is the same as multiplying by 6/7.

So, ((27*6)/7)/9, which gives us an absolutely hideous value of 2.571428571428571 and so on. Hit "memory" on your Windows calculator, though, and work out the number of ticks; 27 divided by that.

That gives 10.5 exactly. Which is the exact point you'd jump from 10 ticks to 11.

Same goes for each other breakpoint, you just need to adjust the numbers.


And bear in mind; this is the EASY part of the math. We haven't added in the effects of all the other stats on relative value at any given point. This is why we use the sim; because trying to math it out is actually more frustrating and complicated than getting a computer to brute-force it.

[binkenstein]

My question mainly stemmed from having another shaman on my realm telling me that the Haste trinket was BiS on single target fights, because he "read World of Logs". I didn't think it was true.

Actually, it is. CotC is slightly worse, but is much better for shadow based classes.

This is the point, I want to know the points after which Haste begins to start losing value, I.E. the value of adding more Haste is less than adding Mastery, without Simming. I'm wondering if there is a resource, site or graph etc that shows this without me simming my gear all the time? *hopeful* or more importantly, not gear based - I'm talking about a chart that has every +1 point of Haste plotted showing the spikes and where it slows down, not just based on the specific gear you plug into the sim. I know this sounds lazy, but it's more that I don't know Simcraft indepth enough to accurately produce it myself, and it would be pointless if someone has already done it (or knows it well enough that they could wack it out in a few minutes).

Once you have T13 4pc this break point becomes largely irrelevant as you will have X haste rating + 250Y, where Y is the number of current charges of the 4pc haste buff you have. With a 750 rating range, and a change to stat priorities (mastery >= haste) means that aiming for break points is largely pointless (not that they were practical to begin with, as you were looking at two sloping lines that slowly moved towards each other rather than a big jump/drop at a single point).

[Deleted]

Only skim read the new details on what has happened with the current and new spells in MOP Beta and I pray to god they are not final. I have never really played a shaman properly and was looking forward to starting one for MOP, but from what I've seen Shammys are just getting nerfed to shit, weren't they already pretty poor (except Resto) in Cata? (Quit mid-way through so not sure what class balance was like towards the end.) So why are they getting this nerf all of a sudden? (I do respect the fact it is in the Beta process and stuff can change, just going on the info released. AND! I'm not trying to troll just curious because still deciding what class to play come MOP)

[Endus]

Clearly you didn't read much, because there are no really significant nerfs anywhere in there, and almost every issue Elemental has, was addressed.

And no, Elemental's been just fine in Cata outside of Tier 11. One tier does not mean we're hosed for an entire expansion, especially when it's the first tier.

[Deleted]

If anything I feel Elemental is going to be rediculously overpowered if it goes live like it is now. Ancestral Guidance + Astral Shift + Ascendance + Echo of the Elements + Unleashed Fury + Lava Burst Glyph = Good luck beating an Elemental Shaman in PvP

[Keren]

dont use glyph and use flame shock before your cds and in pve you can rock anything dot ticks can make LvB instant, even more LvB in PVE!