Resto: Should Blizzard bring back Tidal Force?

[drhay53]

posting a big list means nothing. Let's pick out any changes that affect resto and discuss them, shall we?

Chain Heal's effectiveness has been increased by approximately 10%. - a buff, but still not enough to make it into a regular rotation at currently viable levels of haste.

Healing Rain now has a 40-yard range, up from 30, to be consistent with other shaman heals. - not a buff or a nerf, basically an oversight on Blizz's part. For the most part you shouldnt be over 30 yards away from someone you're supposed to be healing anyway.

Spiritwalker's Grace duration has been increased to 15 seconds, up from 10. A slight buff, but for a very situational spell.

Tremor Totem has been redesigned. The totem is now usable under Fear, Charm, or Sleep effects, and pulses much more rapidly, but lasts 6 seconds and has a 1-minute cooldown. - a pretty big nerf for PvE shaman.

Cleansing Waters no longer fires its heal effect twice when a shaman removes a Magic and a Curse debuff with a single cast. - A nerf of a bug

Deep Healing (Mastery) has been increased to 3% per point, up from 2.5%. - a buff to mastery

Greater Healing Wave mana cost has been increased by 10%; healing done has been increased by 20%. - a buff to GHW that by all numbers I've seen still doesn't make it surpass a TW buffed HS, unless it's used with UL.

Mana Tide Totem has been redesigned. The totem no longer multiplies the Spirit of those affected by it. It instead gives a flat amount of Spirit equal to 400% of the casting shaman's Spirit, exclusive of short-term Spirit buffs affecting the shaman when the totem is dropped. In addition, its effects are now raid-wide. - Huge nerf.

Buffs - 4. None of them are very effective, in my experience. CH is still a back-burner spell for me. GHW is still behind HS for me. Spiritwalker's grace lets you get off 2 more casts while running, but why are you running for 15 seconds anyway? The mastery buff hasn't shown any big difference for me yet, but is probably the only change that is a pretty decent buff.

Nerfs - 3. The MTT nerf is huge, there's no way to sugarcoat that. The Tremor totem change is stupid, but not really important for a raiding shaman. The cleansing waters nerf is not that big of a deal.

So unless you think those buffs greatly increase throughput (which they don't seem to be according to experience and the logs so far after 4.0.6) then that 'huge long list of buffs' is pretty much equal on buffs and nerfs for resto shaman. We come out even, while all other classes come out even or ahead. We were already way behind. If Disc priests could get a significant buff to bring them closer to the other healers, why couldn't shaman?

[Strakha]

Just make earthliving proc 100% of the time and stack to 3 procs. problem solved.

[Elessa]

I wouldn't say that the MTT redesign was a nerf in every situation.
It's been increased to 400% from 350% - buff
The 400% doesn't stack with trinket spirit uses, or massive spirit procs - a big nerf for those who actually had a trinket like that
It continues to work with stacking trinkets like DMC:T, Jar and the T10 4-set bonus which results in a buff because it was increased from 350% to 400%
Raid wide instead of group only - big buff for 25s, barely noticeable for 10s, but it makes it easier to sort groups based on healing assignements

So, for those who had a on use spirit trinket, or a trinket with a massive spirit proc and still uses them after patch, yes it's a pretty big nerf. If you change these trinkets to DMC:T and Jar, it makes up for some of the 'lost' spirit from clicky trinkets or massive spirit procs.

[Feebleminded]

To be perfectly honest, there's many ways to give Resto the CDs they're missing that wouldn't break Resto for PvP. The most obvious of these is is to simply use a Totem (since Totems are very controllable by your attacker in PvP). We have totem that summons a tank and a DPSing elemental, why is there no Healing one? Put it in the Resto tree and make Mana Tide a prereq.

Totem summons a Water Revenant. Give it a Pet Bar and it can have 3 abilities (the Shaman chooses which to use ofc). One does Mana Tide, the other does a raid-wide 300% (or more/less) Healing Stream for X seconds, and the third buffs the Shaman's throughput by YY% for X seconds.

Each of these abilities can be an uninterruptible/unstunnable channel. The Revenant despawns once the channel is complete. The totem has a moderate (3min+) CD. The totem is killable by a player, but has 75,000 HP (so it requires more than just a white swing).

There. Every Resto CD problem done with in one go.

I really like this idea. You could even keep it on the same cooldown and duration as the other two summoning totems and reduce the potency a bit, but as healing cooldowns are a little more situational it would make sense to keep it potent and short.
The idea of getting an elemental involved reslly sits well with me in keeping with the theme of the class. There was somone else who mentined having water elementals swirl around the target to aid in healing, though that doesn't help much in raid healing situations.

[Hypernetic]

Which resto shaman nerfs are you reffering to?

Mana tide is the only resto specific one. Though the purge nerf hits pretty hard in PVP for all specs.

[Endus]

Lots of those were nerfs, or buffs to elemental.
Face it guys, the nerf train just keeps riding and we shamans have a free ticket. it seems blizz is trying to exctinct us without actually saying so. we will not get more spells, we will not get new cooldowns, we will most likely only get enh shaman nerfs.

Yes, because one spec is performing a bit under par, the entire class is ruined and Blizz hates us.

That kind of hyperbole is pretty much the definition of "trolling". I only mention it here as an example of "what not to do".

Nerfs - 3. The MTT nerf is huge, there's no way to sugarcoat that. The Tremor totem change is stupid, but not really important for a raiding shaman. The cleansing waters nerf is not that big of a deal.

The MTT "nerf" also means MTT is now raid-wide. In that, it was buffed. It also encourages Resto Shaman to gear for their own healing, rather than taking as many Spirit procs as they can so they can be mana batteries for everyone else. So while it may be a "nerf" in that we're no longer godly mana batteries that make mana conservation near-irrelevant, I don't think that was a role we should have been filling to begin with.

The cleansing waters thing wasn't a nerf, it was a bug fix.

And I will strongly argue that the Tremor change is a buff with regards to PvE. The only fights where there are so many fears the new CD is a problem are a couple of situations in 5-man dungeons, which are tuned under the assumption that you DON'T have an AoE fear break. And given that it's now 100% under the Shaman's control, that's a buff. No longer do I need to get annoyed because I ran for 3 seconds before Tremor bothered to tick. Even for PvP, the only class it's really a nerf against is Warlocks, and even then, you've got so many tools to deal with spammed fears that ubertremor was unnecessary and lazy.

So unless you think those buffs greatly increase throughput (which they don't seem to be according to experience and the logs so far after 4.0.6) then that 'huge long list of buffs' is pretty much equal on buffs and nerfs for resto shaman. We come out even, while all other classes come out even or ahead. We were already way behind. If Disc priests could get a significant buff to bring them closer to the other healers, why couldn't shaman?

Because Disc priests were averaging even lower than Resto Shaman were, prior to 4.0.6. They were the weakest link, so they got the focus treatment, in part. Also, I still think the biggest issue with Resto shaman isn't our regular healing, it's our lack of any CDs we can use. Other healers can push harder when big AoE hits, Resto Shaman can't. And that's an issue that can't (or at least won't) be fixable until 4.1.0.

[Hypernetic]

Yes, because one spec is performing a bit under par, the entire class is ruined and Blizz hates us.

That kind of hyperbole is pretty much the definition of "trolling". I only mention it here as an example of "what not to do".



The MTT "nerf" also means MTT is now raid-wide. In that, it was buffed. It also encourages Resto Shaman to gear for their own healing, rather than taking as many Spirit procs as they can so they can be mana batteries for everyone else. So while it may be a "nerf" in that we're no longer godly mana batteries that make mana conservation near-irrelevant, I don't think that was a role we should have been filling to begin with.

The cleansing waters thing wasn't a nerf, it was a bug fix.

And I will strongly argue that the Tremor change is a buff with regards to PvE. The only fights where there are so many fears the new CD is a problem are a couple of situations in 5-man dungeons, which are tuned under the assumption that you DON'T have an AoE fear break. And given that it's now 100% under the Shaman's control, that's a buff. No longer do I need to get annoyed because I ran for 3 seconds before Tremor bothered to tick. Even for PvP, the only class it's really a nerf against is Warlocks, and even then, you've got so many tools to deal with spammed fears that ubertremor was unnecessary and lazy.



Because Disc priests were averaging even lower than Resto Shaman were, prior to 4.0.6. They were the weakest link, so they got the focus treatment, in part. Also, I still think the biggest issue with Resto shaman isn't our regular healing, it's our lack of any CDs we can use. Other healers can push harder when big AoE hits, Resto Shaman can't. And that's an issue that can't (or at least won't) be fixable until 4.1.0.

Actually the exact opposite is true of mana tide. Because it's raid wide and scales off of our spirit instead of the recipients, we ARE mana batteries. It DOES encourage spirit stacking for that end.

Not that I would do that, even if I was doing 25 mans, but that's not the point. The point is that the design of the ability does promote that if not encourage it.

CDs are a problem for resto, but mana efficiency is more of a problem in my eyes. I could live without CDs if I was able to put out the raw healing numbers (without going OOM) to make up for it. That's kind of been our shtick for the last two expansions and I was ok with it then too.

[drhay53]

The MTT "nerf" also means MTT is now raid-wide. In that, it was buffed. It also encourages Resto Shaman to gear for their own healing, rather than taking as many Spirit procs as they can so they can be mana batteries for everyone else. So while it may be a "nerf" in that we're no longer godly mana batteries that make mana conservation near-irrelevant, I don't think that was a role we should have been filling to begin with.

The cleansing waters thing wasn't a nerf, it was a bug fix.

And I will strongly argue that the Tremor change is a buff with regards to PvE. The only fights where there are so many fears the new CD is a problem are a couple of situations in 5-man dungeons, which are tuned under the assumption that you DON'T have an AoE fear break. And given that it's now 100% under the Shaman's control, that's a buff. No longer do I need to get annoyed because I ran for 3 seconds before Tremor bothered to tick. Even for PvP, the only class it's really a nerf against is Warlocks, and even then, you've got so many tools to deal with spammed fears that ubertremor was unnecessary and lazy.

Because Disc priests were averaging even lower than Resto Shaman were, prior to 4.0.6. They were the weakest link, so they got the focus treatment, in part. Also, I still think the biggest issue with Resto shaman isn't our regular healing, it's our lack of any CDs we can use. Other healers can push harder when big AoE hits, Resto Shaman can't. And that's an issue that can't (or at least won't) be fixable until 4.1.0.

1 min CD on tremor totem is way too much then. 30-45 seconds seems like it would be the sweet spot. But anyway, arguing over whether termor was a buff or a nerf isn't really the point of this whole thing.

As far as MTT goes, I still can't spin the changes in any way to make it seem like a buff. You aren't encouraging shaman to gear for themselves at all, you're encouraging them to stack, gem, and enchant for spirit so that they are providing maximum mana to other raid members. Before the change you COULD focus on your own healing because with MTT plus a big spirit trinket that allowed you to turn all that other spirit into something more useful for throughput. If all we're here for is to assist other healers with their mana, then sign me up for a re-roll.

Lastly, disc priests were barely behind resto shaman, and now they appear to be comfortably ahead. When there are two healing classes who are far behind the other 3, why would you buff 1 considerably to bring them more in line with the others, but leave the other one to sit alone at the very bottom? I don't really get that. The idea that they didn't want to change anything for fear of messing it up for 4.1 is pretty much demolished by the changes to disc priests.

I'm not saying they hate shamans or that they're biased in any way. I'm just trying to understand why our spell efficiencies are the worst of the healers and why other healers STILL got significant buffs, and we pretty much stayed the same, or got extremely minor buffs.

[Revelations]

Resto isn't THAT far behind right now. It's noticeable in hard modes and such, but they can handle a lot of the healing that most of the population is going through.

Indeed, and it's in hardmodes I personally feel that Shamans are lacking behind. Didn't notice it when I had done 11/12 10 man Normal - noticing it now that we're working on our 8th Heroic boss 25 man. But yes, all I said was, they should not have removed Force, or as another poster suggested - they should merge it into Nature's Swiftness.

Regarding patience - yes, I will be patient. I will see what Blizzard has in store for us. If they don't have anything for us - so be it. I will continue to play my Shaman.

Personally I feel the CH buff was too low. Mastery buff was great and GWH buff was okay/great as well. Now, that being said we are still not cutting it.
Paladins, Druids and Priests are now somewhat balanced compared to eachother; Paladins still on top, druids still on the bottom (of those three).

Then you have shamans. If Blizzard magically granted us a ~1.5k overall HPS buff, then I'd be tempted to say healing would be balanced.

[Dirtyfist]

Just a random idea here

Pillar of Stone: Instantly heals an earth shielded target for 75% of the shaman's total health and reduces all incoming damage by 30% for 8 seconds. Only castable on a target with earth shield. 3 min cooldown.

Kind of like LoH ( which has gone for far too long as a pally only ability ), but different.

Just popped into my head.

It seems to me that the healing part would be balanced between both pve and pvp and the incoming damage reduction part wouldn't threaten balance between both either.

[Revelations]

Seems Blizzard answered our prayers~

[Grelsha]

Although Druids may bitch and moan about it, we should have a form change CD something like:

Tidehunter
6% base mana
3 minute cooldown

Shapeshift into the form of the tidehunter, increasing healing done by 15% and increasing your haste by 20%. Also protects the caster from Polymorph effects. In addition, some of your spells are temporarily enhanced while shapeshifted. Lasts 25 sec.

Enhanced spells: Healing Wave, Lesser Healing Wave, Greater Healing Wave, Riptide, Earthliving

Something like this would be awesome – we could become a mini Neptulon

[Cayumi]

A brief comparison:

Paladins:
Divine Favor
Avenging Wrath
Divine Shield
Divine Protection

Priests:
Desperate Prayer (Holy/Disc)
Guardian Spirit (Holy)
PW: Barrier (disc)
Pain Suppression (disc)

Druids:
Barkskin
Tranquility
Tree of Life

Shaman:
??????

To answer the OP; Something would be better than nothing.

So what do you count Mana Tide Totem, Nature Swiftness and Spirit Walker's Grace to be?
Mounts? Companion pets? Consumables? Enchants?

[Ashardis]

When the majority of raids build their healing group around mana tide I have to disagree with you.

Surely that implies, that yet again, we're boosting other classes ability to do more?

while i love it to bits, and wouldnt want it back to party only, mana restore isnt really a great comparrison to boosted healing on target or x% dmg reduction for z time.


WTF happened to the proposed Spirit Link??

[SuperNick]

So what do you count Mana Tide Totem, Nature Swiftness and Spirit Walker's Grace to be?
Mounts? Companion pets? Consumables? Enchants?

Mana tide and spirit walkers grace are neither an offensive or defensive cooldown. One provides a small benefit to mobility (this being a fairly static raid tier as it is though) and the other is just a mana cooldown which other classes get on top of their offensive/defensive CDs anyway.

Hence that was the topic of discussion.. We get no real throughput, defensive or offensive cooldowns. Natures swiftness dropped to 1 minute would help a lot, but even so, it's still just barely a panic button which might not even crit on your big spell.

Still ultimately at a loss why Tidal force went.

[Elessa]

Mana tide and spirit walkers grace are neither an offensive or defensive cooldown. One provides a small benefit to mobility (this being a fairly static raid tier as it is though) and the other is just a mana cooldown which other classes get on top of their offensive/defensive CDs anyway.

Hence that was the topic of discussion.. We get no real throughput, defensive or offensive cooldowns. Natures swiftness dropped to 1 minute would help a lot, but even so, it's still just barely a panic button which might not even crit on your big spell.

Still ultimately at a loss why Tidal force went.

Should count the Stoneclaw Absorb for shamans then. It will probably end up abosorbing more damage than DP or Barkskin would, unless you're a tank.

[Hypernetic]

Should count the Stoneclaw Absorb for shamans then. It will probably end up abosorbing more damage than DP or Barkskin would, unless you're a tank.

Stoneclaw doesn't scale with anything.