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  1. #21
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    Because it angers and confuses people.

    And it's damn sexy!

  2. #22
    Oddly, Exemplar's most current spreadsheet still shows DMC:H as ~100 dps over H CW and Redcape's is showing it around ~60 dps above H CW for me. And that's with haste having quite a nice value for me currently (36% of 1 point of STR, compared to 49% from mastery and 42% from crit).

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt3s View Post
    I had my fair share of problems with trinkets in the last weeks.

    First of all: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/characte...C3%A9/advanced

    As you may see, i'm currently wearing LtS and DMC:H.
    I also have H:HoR, but came to the conculsion that its not the best trinket for me right now.

    You may ask why, and i would be delighted if someone would point out a way to equip H:HoR and still get the maximum benefit out of it.

    You see, i have H-Akirus, so i got a shitload of Expertise on my weapon and H-Ashkandi is far away, so there is no way in hell i take another weapon.
    The shoes are best in slot and through STR and Mastery alone even without Expertise better than 359-ones.
    Relic i dont have to explain.
    Which leaves the head.

    Yes i am engineer, and i could take the googles, but thats a 30str loss, and i would have to equip my 359 shoulders which are awful in comparison to my 372 HalfusHC shoulders.

    That leaves me with:

    168 Expt head
    259 Expt weapon
    171 Expt shoes
    72 Expt relic

    overall: 680 Expertise, i can reforge 40% of that, which leaves me with 408, so yeah, with reforging i can (as you see) easily get my expt. cap


    Now, H-HoR has a shitload of expertise, namely 363, after reforging its still 218 expertise.

    Even if i reforge everything off of my gear i'm left with 145 Expertise Rating to much.


    Thats 145 wasted points of item value.



    --- anyone a clue how i could make it work?


    ---

    another thing i got a problem with is your:



    I dont know how you feel, but as a retribution paladin in a semi-hardcore-progress guild with a 365~itemlvl, im STARVED for Hit-Rating.

    I have to enchant AND reforge Hit-Rating in order to be capped.
    Without a weapon with Hit, namely Ashkandi HC, every single Ret-Paladin in the world who has a 372 Weapon is unable to reach Hitcap solely through gear without wearing LtS.
    The expertise issue is definately valid, since with either Shalugdoom or Akirus combined with H-HoR we will idd be overflowing. I think the best option us probably to just do as you do, and use lesser trinkets until you get Ashkandi or possibly see if you can squeeze out more dps by changing glyph of SoT to CS to accomodate (likely not a gain, but worth a try).

    As for hit rating, there are a few gear pieces that could help you out a lot, aside from ashkandi ofc.

    - Rage of Ages from Nefarian has 127 hit instead of the haste on your current one, this should be easy enough to pick up for you.
    - Maloriak belt seems to be our current BiS belt, even better than your faultline belt. Also on the same token the Earthshaker belt is nearly the same as Maloriak one, except for the +10 rating socket bonus.
    - Similarly you can change either of your rings for an Earthshaker ring from Alakir to get additional hit rating.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Mew View Post

    - Rage of Ages from Nefarian has 127 hit instead of the haste on your current one, this should be easy enough to pick up for you.
    - Maloriak belt seems to be our current BiS belt, even better than your faultline belt. Also on the same token the Earthshaker belt is nearly the same as Maloriak one, except for the +10 rating socket bonus.
    - Similarly you can change either of your rings for an Earthshaker ring from Alakir to get additional hit rating.
    Yeah, the Hit-Issue isnt really my problem. (in comparison to expertise >:// ) but, exactly those two items (Maloriak HC Belt and Nef Neck) are my most desided.

    Unfortunately, except a world3 parse on nefarian yesterday (yay) and 3 (thats THREE !) Agi-Trinkets he remains reluctent to gimme my neck >:/

    Maloriak also didnt drop my belt


    And Al'akir...oh boy, dont even start...since the first kill he dropped exactly ZERO rings. *HATE*


    //edit: Glyph of Crusaderstrike is pretty bad to say the least :X so no, i already made the numbers for it...

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt3s View Post
    And Al'akir...oh boy, dont even start...since the first kill he dropped exactly ZERO rings. *HATE*
    Tank rings, tank pants, and caster swords with spirit on them. He's very useful. Really. I mean it. Really. as;ldkg;lkfsd;lka nfaslkjdf;lskZAJF l;kasjfd ;lk ajfl

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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt3s View Post

    //edit: Glyph of Crusaderstrike is pretty bad to say the least :X so no, i already made the numbers for it...
    I see, I was kinda expecting that to be the case

    But I feel you on drops, we've had 9 Nefarian kills in our guild so far, and not one single Ashkandi yet. What are the chances really. Now it's come to the point, where I hope it does NOT drop, so I can get hc Akirus instead and avoid having to spend maelstroms for landslide on a temp upgrade
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice View Post
    Tank rings, tank pants, and caster swords with spirit on them. He's very useful. Really. I mean it. Really. as;ldkg;lkfsd;lka nfaslkjdf;lskZAJF l;kasjfd ;lk ajfl
    and now in unison!:

    ASKHDKJAHSKJDHAKJSGDASHDNKASMNDLKAHSKJHDIUAZHSDIUZQZDIOUASHDLKJ

    Yeah...take that damn Al'akir.

    Want some leather pants with spirit?
    We get apprx. 3 per kill.

    Last week everything was disenchanted. *hoorai*


    Quote Originally Posted by Mew View Post
    I see, I was kinda expecting that to be the case

    But I feel you on drops, we've had 9 Nefarian kills in our guild so far, and not one single Ashkandi yet. What are the chances really. Now it's come to the point, where I hope it does NOT drop, so I can get hc Akirus instead and avoid having to spend maelstroms for landslide on a temp upgrade
    Hmmm..

    ur in my guild?

    Yep, no ashkandi and one single neck, 5 weeks ago (to a warrior *sadface* i didnt need the hit that much back in the days, had the crafted waist + t11 shoulders)

    And yes, THANK GOD, i got H-Akirus... :P

  8. #28
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    Bear in mind, many, if not all, top ret paladins will have Engineering and thus the synapse springs. Using these springs puts all on use trinkets on a 15 second cool down.
    I am the lucid dream
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  9. #29
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    Haven't seen a single Ashkandi drop here either.

    Lots of shields though. >:/

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice View Post
    The only notes that I have seen about FoA thus far are that the stack procs appear to have a 5 second ICD. I have yet to read about someone having their stacks fall off because of a slow proc rate. Regardless, you are still looking at ~25-30 seconds of delay just to "use" the trinket + AW.
    Well, that's something to begin with. We have 30s ramp-up with otherwise reliable 2min on-use CD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice View Post
    Don't get me wrong here. I am not attacking your data or trying to sound like a total neighsayer. If FoA had a heroic version, it would probably be "the one". The cost to use this trinket properly doesn't seem to be factored correctly when creating trinket rankings. That's all I am really saying here. Anyone can see the overall value of this trinket if the fight duration was infinite, but that's definitely not the case.
    Seems you are used to me getting defensive quickly and not accepting critic from others ... but I'm only doing it when people say dumb out-of-place things, which I really don't have patience to listen to.
    Your point is completely valid and welcomed, I obviously need to do more math on FoA.

    So, let's start.
    FoA user have several options:

    1) Use cooldowns as usual, but delay first FoA use till the second round of CDs.
    It will give FoA procs a full benefit of synergy with CDs, but will reduce it's uptime drastically. During 5 min fight you will only use FoA 2 times, instead of 3.
    321*0.980*1.075 + 1926/6*(2/3)*2.27*1.395 = 1016 dps
    This way FoA will be downgraded to a level of a blue trinket.

    2) Use cooldowns as usual and use FoA right after it's available.
    It will give FoA normal uptime, but zero synergy with CDs.
    321*0.980*1.075 + 1926/6*2.27 = 1067 dps
    Not much better, as you can see.

    3) Delay cooldowns for 30 seconds (risking losing one at the end) and stack them with FoA for the rest of the fight.
    Most important question here is: what is the chance of losing last round of CDs if we delay them for 30s at the start?
    Or more specific: what's the average uptime of the last AW/Zeal in the case of 30s delay of first AW/Zeal?
    The short answer is 75%.
    For the long answer you can draw a graph of AW/Zeal uptime vs fight duration, it will look like a staircase with a 45 degrees raises for the 20 seconds, then flat for the 100 seconds, then raise again, etc. If you consider one step of this staircase and imagine you cutting 30 seconds from it, you can write the following formula for the
    CD uptime = 70/120*1 (no AW loss) + 10/120*0 (full AW loss) + 40/120 * 0.5 (on average, half of AW loss) = 0.75
    Now, we have to do three things:
    - give FoA full benefit of CDs synergy
    - reduce FoA proc uptime, since it's also on the same 2min cooldown
    - reduce total damage output based on 75% uptime of last CDs and penalize trinket for this loss of dps

    Let's say that our fight should allow ~3 usage of CDs (but now the last one can be partially cut):
    321*0.980*1.075 + 1926*(20+20+20*0.75)/360*2.27*1.395 - 23000*(0.26/6-0.26*55/360) = 1187 dps
    In the end total uptime of trinket was reduced by 8.3%.
    Reducing of AW/Zeal (26% boost) uptime resulted in 0.3611% dps decrease, which is, for a 23k dps BiS set equates to 83 dps.

    As you can see 3rd option give us higher dps with FoA than the other two, but still it took a huge hit and nowhere near BiS now.

    Until someone comes in and point us to a better way of using this trinket, I'm going to use this value.

    Original post corrected, FoA is NOT BiS anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt3s View Post
    I dont know how you feel, but as a retribution paladin in a semi-hardcore-progress guild with a 365~itemlvl, im STARVED for Hit-Rating.

    I have to enchant AND reforge Hit-Rating in order to be capped.
    Without a weapon with Hit, namely Ashkandi HC, every single Ret-Paladin in the world who has a 372 Weapon is unable to reach Hitcap solely through gear without wearing LtS.
    I feel your pain. I already stated in several threads that HoR is extremely hard to utilize if you are using Exp weapon and tier + shoulders combo and a lot of paladins do use them.
    Still, check how much of the rating you losing, it might be BiS for you anyway.
    Say, if you losing 145 points from H:HoR
    (363-145)*0.995*1.075 + 2178*0.18*2.27*1.1975 = 1299 dps
    Still better than anything else ... huge strength procs FTW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowdream View Post
    Bear in mind, many, if not all, top ret paladins will have Engineering and thus the synapse springs. Using these springs puts all on use trinkets on a 15 second cool down.
    Many, if not all? Who told you that?
    Paragon ret is LW/Tail.
    FTH ret is Tail/JC.
    CO ret is Alch/JC.
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jontun View Post
    still playing with bader i c : (
    No one from vodka called yet to invite me to core (/sarcasm off), so yeah, raiding with the folks I've been raiding for the last 9 months, why?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisko View Post
    It accounts for delaying of first round of CDs to line-up them with trinket on-use effect.
    Depending on the fight, this could be introducing a DPS loss.

    That's not to say the list is innacurate. Synergy involves more than aligning timers.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by numerius View Post
    Depending on the fight, this could be introducing a DPS loss.

    That's not to say the list is innacurate. Synergy involves more than aligning timers.
    Read the post before expressing your opinion. The whole point of it was to account for LOSS OF DPS.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisko View Post
    No one from vodka called yet to invite me to core (/sarcasm off), so yeah, raiding with the folks I've been raiding for the last 9 months, why?
    I know your pain. I still have to pass my Finnish 101 course before Paragon will invite me.

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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisko View Post
    Many, if not all? Who told you that?
    Paragon ret is LW/Tail.
    FTH ret is Tail/JC.
    CO ret is Alch/JC.
    ...

    I should rephrase to accommodate for pedantic posters, such as yourself.

    "Bear in mind, many, if not all, top min/maxing ret paladins will have Engineering and thus the synapse springs. Using these springs puts all on use trinkets on a 15 second cool down."
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowdream View Post
    I should rephrase to accommodate for pedantic posters, such as yourself.

    "Bear in mind, many, if not all, top min/maxing ret paladins will have Engineering and thus the synapse springs. Using these springs puts all on use trinkets on a 15 second cool down."
    Not to pick a fight, but I find it somewhat ironic that "many, if not all, top min/maxing ret paladins" are willing to reduce their dps by having a profession that interferes with the potential for max dps.

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  16. #36
    I'm curious where Right Eye of Rajh fits on here compared to other 346 heroic trinkets.
    (can't post a Wowhead link)

    Currently I am still doing normal mode raids (7/12) and probably won't get any other trinkets because I sub in when other DPS aren't available and am last on gear distribution. I've been using DMC:H and REoR for the +hit. LtS is on my radar, but I was told that it isn't enough of a DPS increase to get that instead and forego my 2pc T11. So I've saved my VP for my tier pieces first.

    However, I am almost at enough TB commendations to get IoY. Should I be dumping the REoR and taking that instead with my DMC:H and just reforge for hit off my gear?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice View Post
    Not to pick a fight, but I find it somewhat ironic that "many, if not all, top min/maxing ret paladins" are willing to reduce their dps by having a profession that interferes with the potential for max dps.
    No fight taken? Going by EJ, the trinket BiS list puts trinkets like DMC:H, HoR and FoA ahead of the on use trinkets you'd want to pair with CDs anyway, as such, no loss is incurred. Coupled with the bombs, and the fact that it's perk can be timed with AV, this puts Engineering ahead of the other professions.

    Even if, for whatever reason, you decided to push for on use trinkets. You can STILL use the engineering tinker during the last 5 seconds of AV and thus get a slightly higher use of the average 80 strength it provides.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2011-02-15 at 10:59 PM.
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  18. #38

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisko View Post
    Anecdotal or not, it's the best parses we have now. You have to remember that 2% value, which Redcape mentioned for his logs, correspond to casual/semi raiders (same for me) and for such raiders 2% is equal to ~370 dps indeed. If you will shoot for the top-end 24k parses ... it will be less than 2%, obviously. I'll show you:

    Neldarie <Inner Sanctum> 23637.4 dps Chogall25H ret#1
    LStrike damage: 203109/12907606 * 23637.4 = 371.9 dps
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=9236&e=9789

    Элберес <Экзорсус> 22602.6 dps Chogall25H ret#2
    LStrike damage: 120407/13261041 * 22602.6 = 205.2 dps
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...e/?s=140&e=732

    Casy <Silent> 23534.0 dps Chimaeron25H ret#1
    LStrike damage: 168832/8820446 * 23534.0 = 450.5 dps
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r.../?s=964&e=1347

    Jorj <Invictus> 23550.9 dps Chimaeron25H ret#2
    LStrike damage: 117314/9365653 * 23550.9 = 295 dps
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l...?s=1944&e=2349

    Malba <easYplaY> 26943.2 dps Alakir25N ret#1
    LStrike damage: 151445/12113053 * 26943.2 = 336.9 dps
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1055&e=1511

    Vetra <For The Hordeh> 24440.5 dps Alakir25N ret#5 (2-4 didnt used DMC)
    LStrike damage: 192664/12210854 * 24440.5 = 385.6 dps
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1055&e=1511

    We interested not in the percent however, but in dps value.
    Simple average here gives me 341 dps, if anything, I think I overshooted value of DMC:H a bit.
    You are welcome to crunch more logs so we can have more precise data

    you also didn't bother listing their damage done to adds, which is the reason their DPS is so high (almost 100% boss up time). You can't just take top parses and assume they're doing everything properly, because 9/10, they're cheating DPS in some way.

    Edit: You also listed 2 Al'akir parses, why? They can go into Phase 3 with 2+ adds and have monster damage. You're picking parses but not delving into them, I'd suggest doing so for a good comparison. If you just take people who don't move, of course their damage is going to be higher.

    For example: On Choga'll, if you're using a proc trinket, but not switching to adds, you have 100% DPS usage for that proc, as opposed to the same situation, but you have to move and start a new cycle on a new target.
    Last edited by Elamahpla; 2011-02-16 at 10:19 AM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Elamahpla View Post
    you also didn't bother listing their damage done to adds, which is the reason their DPS is so high (almost 100% boss up time). You can't just take top parses and assume they're doing everything properly, because 9/10, they're cheating DPS in some way.

    Edit: You also listed 2 Al'akir parses, why? They can go into Phase 3 with 2+ adds and have monster damage. You're picking parses but not delving into them, I'd suggest doing so for a good comparison. If you just take people who don't move, of course their damage is going to be higher.

    For example: On Choga'll, if you're using a proc trinket, but not switching to adds, you have 100% DPS usage for that proc, as opposed to the same situation, but you have to move and start a new cycle on a new target.
    What is this I don’t even ....

    Nobody cares about adds damage.
    Nobody was planning to compare anything on these fights.
    Nobody cares if they cheesing meters and how much they moved during the fight.

    If you would actually read conversation you might have a chance to notice that the only reason I linked these logs was in reply to Mew comment about how much damage Lightning Strike (DMC:H automated proc) was contributing to overall dps on average for the top-end 23k+ parses. He hoped that contribution should be between 460-520 dps but it's not the case right now.

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