Up yours.

[Addiena]

Well, if you aren't flaming/trolling, where's the proof for them 'making fun of' players? The few times I see Bashiok or someone similar jab fun at a player, it's in good humor, and the target player, at least every time I've seen it, also takes it in good humor. I mean, I saw a string of posts that basically went

Bashiok: Hehe, your gnome looks angry
Player: Hehe, yeah
Player 2: BASHIOK IS MAKING FUN OF PEOPLE
Bashiok/Player1: wtf?

I saw that post .. and his gnome did look angry and in light of what he said Bash was right .. his look and post just came off as an angry gnome.

Even the poster agreed with Bash, but the poster didnt get upset with Bash but rather had a chuckle with him.

It was quite funny.

The communities hostile behavior towards the Blues maybe one of the reasons they don't post often, every time they do post the community attacks them.

[Syni]

I agree with Blizz. It's their game, they do with it as they desire, and we pay to play it if we like it. If you don't like it, you take your money elsewhere. That's how these things work. And I for one am ecstatic at the fact that Blizz finally grew a backbone and stopped caving to the players' will at every sight of forum QQ.

You pay $15 a month to play a game. You don't pay $15 a month to have the game designed around your ideas and philosophies. You should expect regular balancing and bugfixes as part of those $15, but you shouldn't expect Blizzard to change things just because you don't like them.

Absolutely. Game design is NOT a service industry, in the sense that you don't pay for a specific service. The game is a product, and you pay for access to the product.

As such, you're not entitled to simply say "I'll buy x service" and have it rendered to you. If they're certain that their entire client base wants a change made, they'll absolutely do something about it. However, the (in-freakin-credibly) vocal minority seems to feed on itself and get the idea that Blizzard is straight up ignoring them.

Do you know where most of the satisfied people are, instead of posting counters to all the complaining? Playing the game. Because it's fun.

Because it's a GAME.

Edit;
And if you can't find any fun in it, and you're certain they won't be changing it to suit your needs; find a game that will, because that's really the only option left that'll please you.

[Bunsie]

Well, if you aren't flaming/trolling, where's the proof for them 'making fun of' players? The few times I see Bashiok or someone similar jab fun at a player, it's in good humor, and the target player, at least every time I've seen it, also takes it in good humor. I mean, I saw a string of posts that basically went

Bashiok: Hehe, your gnome looks angry
Player: Hehe, yeah
Player 2: BASHIOK IS MAKING FUN OF PEOPLE
Bashiok/Player1: wtf?

Some people take comments more seriously than others. What you may feel is a silly jab might be a personal insult to another.

[Riboe]

I read the entire post and I have to say, if I spoke to and belittled my customers the way that Blizzard has in this post I know exactly how many customers I would be left with.

12 million customers?
You feel belittled, but you just, basically said that I (and everybody else) feels the same way that you do.
If you don't like it, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! QUIT THE DAMN GAME!
Yeah.. Sorry, I lost it a bit there, but I won't edit it, since that's how I feel. Please.. I beg you. Quit the game.

[Addiena]

Some people take comments more seriously than others. What you may feel is a silly jab might be a personal insult to another.

Point is it wasn't an insult to the very poster it was directed at and therefore the other posters opinions on what it is or isn't .. don't matter a damn.

[twh]

it may not be a service industry......but blizzard is a business, WoW is their product. their goal is to make the most $ possible.

[Bunsie]

Point is it wasn't an insult to the very poster it was directed at and therefore the other posters opinions on what it is or isn't .. don't matter a damn.

Yeah but convince them of that. lol Most people who get mad when blues pick at players just generally don't like the blues. Which I find amusing, since GC and Bashiok are so awesome. They remain polite but very blunt, and I think that's why they're singled out so much. People aren't used to that kind of an attitude from others. They want to be placated and soothed, not told "This is how it is for now, it looks good so this is how we're keeping it. If you and your three friends are going to leave over something trivial then I bid you good day."

Or it could totally be jealousy of their coolness..hah

[Syni]

No I'm being a realist. They have 12 million accounts sold, not 12 million customers. If you think that you're clearly thick skulled. How many people bought a new account for RAF Zhevra mount and X-52 Rocket? Tons did, and I'm willing to bet a vast majority of them haven't been paid for once the time ran out.

Sigh. I know you know what I mean, and I know you're not going to admit it.

I'll make it simple for you; the post you replied to, about 12 million customers... he clearly meant that there wouldn't be a significant loss of customer base.

Now, let me show you what you did.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

[underdogba]

Strange because i could have sworn i agreed on a Terms of Service thing each patch and i have a hard time seeing how running an online rpg is not a service?

Also, just because some guy posted it doesn't make it the truth fan drone

Exactly, they can't have it both ways. If the agreements are all written from the perspective that they're offering a service, then it isn't not a service at the same time. Bashiok's poorly-conceived statement opens the door to all kinds of complaint about not "owning" your character.

[Bunsie]

Sigh. I know you know what I mean, and I know you're not going to admit it.

I'll make it simple for you; the post you replied to, about 12 million customers... he clearly meant that there wouldn't be a significant loss of customer base.

Now, let me show you what you did.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

I thank you for that link good sir.

[Syni]

I thank you for that link good sir.

No problem. I figure if everyone was required to take a basic logic class and learn at least the most common fallacies before posting, forums would be more pleasant. Instead of, you know. Messy and migraine-inducing.

[SektheGnome]

Actually I agree with Bash. I just quit WoW and let me tell you why: Because Blizzard no longer creates it in their Vision™, but they reactively go and spend their resources on making game changes in order to quell all the QQ, which just leads to more.

So what I'm getting at is I rather play a game created by a company who sticks to their guns, and their vision than this one where I can't rely on my class being consistent (balance wise, UP or OP) throughout an expansion.

TL;DR My sub is no longer active not because Blizzard won't 'FIX IT' for me, but because they are too caught up trying to FIX IT for the masses rather than begin doing what they need to do if they want this game to last another year.

-Sek

[Agallochh]

Sigh. I know you know what I mean, and I know you're not going to admit it.

I'll make it simple for you; the post you replied to, about 12 million customers... he clearly meant that there wouldn't be a significant loss of customer base.

Now, let me show you what you did.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

What I -actually- did was misunderstand the context and mistakenly ranted about something different.

[Syni]

Actually I agree with Bash. I just quit WoW and let me tell you why: Because Blizzard no longer creates it in their Vision™, but they reactively go and spend their resources on making game changes in order to quell all the QQ, which just leads to more.

So what I'm getting at is I rather play a game created by a company who sticks to their guns, and their vision than this one where I can't rely on my class being consistent (balance wise, UP or OP) throughout an expansion.

TL;DR My sub is no longer active not because Blizzard won't 'FIX IT' for me, but because they are too caught up trying to FIX IT for the masses rather than begin doing what they need to do if they want this game to last another year.

I'm absolutely not trying to insult you, but you're a perfect example of what a majority of the angrier playerbase faction should follow in the footsteps of.

The trick isn't to cry until Blizzard compromises on the direction they're taking the game in for those of us who are on board for it.

It's to find a game that is going in a direction you like, instead of attempting mutiny.

The captain of the ship may as well be God for all the luck the "this game is DEAD to me unless Blizzard changes it!" threads are going to have at altering anything that way.

---------- Post added 2011-02-17 at 11:53 PM ----------

What I -actually- did was misunderstand the context and mistakenly ranted about something different.

So an accidental red herring. Still a logical fallacy, at least in purely semantic terms. Not a big deal.

[Pitchkart]

Bashiok also later cleared up his statement, since a few people seemed confused by it:

Let me clarify what I meant because many people have taken this is in a lot of different directions.

I specifically said game design, and in that I specifically meant design decisions on game systems, class balance, etc.

I've seen this analogy before so I'm going to reuse it. Unfortunately the person that posted it originally had the analogy wrong. You walk into a hamburger joint, and say I want a hamburger, but no cheese, extra pickles, and no sesame seeds on the bun. Now in some people's estimation of the situation, we should provide them everything they ask for. But as I said that's an incorrect analogy. Instead what we have is a 23 story tall hamburger about as big as a football field, and it has to feed millions of people. What you want on your hamburger the person next to you does not, we may have specific toppings we're willing to serve, or maybe even able to serve at the current time. And above that we do have some license to direct how we wish our hamburger to taste, we use all beef patties, and we're not going to sacrifice what makes our hamburgers tasty and popular by doing a 20/80 beef and pork mix because someone asked for it. There's some ability for the creators to say thanks for the feedback, but it's not how we want the product to be. At least for the current time.

Anyway, analogies are lame but hopefully that gets some of what I meant across. Class balance is not a service. You don't hit the front of the line and get what you want. I believe that's clear to most everyone, but it seems to still exist in how some of these posts come across. At least to me.

[Raziella]

Ah, but you see he didn't write operating an MMO, he said "Game design".



Absolutely true. The day-to-day operations of running an MMO (i.e., keeping the servers up, fixing bugs that crash the client, etc.) are totally their responsibility and should be acted upon. However, for example, demanding that Tanks should have more threat generation capabilities, is a Game Design decision. A decision that needs to be weighed against factors other than individual opinion or personal observation. This is where you trust Blizzard as a company to do their due diligence, listen to the feedback, take in all of those factors, and produce a change/fix/or no change to continue to make the game "fun" and continue to keep you paying.

Also true. I didn't state any opinions either way, though, on exactly WHAT complaints were being addressed, and the OP didn't quote them, either.

My point was more along the line of Bash's post being an example of the blues trying to be witty and clever, and being more elitist and condescending... as well as partially incorrect.
If you're going to try and blow us out of the water with a statement like that, make sure you're right, imo.
Bash's position as "blue" on the forums puts him right smack into a "customer service" job, whether he likes it or not.
Blizz has the choice to close down those forums at any time... they don't because they are an expected and essential part of an MMO community. But, when you have a feedback forum, you have to take the good with the bad.

I feel it isn't going to constructively help the community to basically imply that they don't give two poops about feedback, and that they provide a product and service (in the online aspects) that they have no obligation to actually SERVICE. (For example, posting that you don't look at PTR feedback, because it "isn't very good.") I'm sure this is not at all what he meant, but it is exactly how it is going to be perceived.
The OP of that thread might have been bitching about something totally unreasonable, or something very reasonable like persistant pugs and other things that have persisted since launch.
You really think at some point it wouldn't reflect better on the company if these mods conducted themselves better?

[ImNot1337]

Bashiok also later cleared up his statement, since a few people seemed confused by it:

I specifically said game design, and in that I specifically meant design decisions on game systems, class balance, etc.

...

Anyway, analogies are lame but hopefully that gets some of what I meant across. Class balance is not a service. You don't hit the front of the line and get what you want. I believe that's clear to most everyone, but it seems to still exist in how some of these posts come across. At least to me.

lol, nearly exactly what I said in my 2nd post on page 1.

/thread

For the record, I like Bashiok's posts. I think this community in-game and on the forums takes itself too seriously.

[writerbythelake]

Bashiok also later cleared up his statement, since a few people seemed confused by it:

Let me clarify what I meant because many people have taken this is in a lot of different directions.

I specifically said game design, and in that I specifically meant design decisions on game systems, class balance, etc.

I've seen this analogy before so I'm going to reuse it. Unfortunately the person that posted it originally had the analogy wrong. You walk into a hamburger joint, and say I want a hamburger, but no cheese, extra pickles, and no sesame seeds on the bun. Now in some people's estimation of the situation, we should provide them everything they ask for. But as I said that's an incorrect analogy. Instead what we have is a 23 story tall hamburger about as big as a football field, and it has to feed millions of people. What you want on your hamburger the person next to you does not, we may have specific toppings we're willing to serve, or maybe even able to serve at the current time. And above that we do have some license to direct how we wish our hamburger to taste, we use all beef patties, and we're not going to sacrifice what makes our hamburgers tasty and popular by doing a 20/80 beef and pork mix because someone asked for it. There's some ability for the creators to say thanks for the feedback, but it's not how we want the product to be. At least for the current time.

Anyway, analogies are lame but hopefully that gets some of what I meant across. Class balance is not a service. You don't hit the front of the line and get what you want. I believe that's clear to most everyone, but it seems to still exist in how some of these posts come across. At least to me.

Wow. thanks for posting that. what a backpedal. someone up the ladder must have talked to him.

[Syni]

You really think at some point it wouldn't reflect better on the company if these mods conducted themselves better?

Personally, I think that the mods conduct themselves just fine, and that if they walked on eggshells trying not to offend anyone they'd have an even harder time of addressing the community. Their job isn't to be nice. They aren't paid to coddle us. They're paid to get a specific job done, and part of that job involves telling us how it is, even if how it is can be construed to be offensive.

There's a certain level of "my subjective = the objective" false reasoning going on in the community, and at some point people need to give up and see the light. What is true for you, may not be true for another poster. Or any other posters, in some cases.

[FattyXP]

I agree it's not a service industry, however Blizzard does listen to feedback from players. Remember the Real ID Blizzard was planning for the forums? Blizz wanted it, but the players didn't, so Blizz listened to the players and reverted the change.

I think its more like they don't think things through, and then the players voice concerns and they are like "o yeah, crap"