Holy Paladin Guide - Updated for 4.3.4

**thoukaia** · 2011-02-23, 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by Hendrixstorm

Intellect also provides 22 to the formula for in combat mana regeneration VS 20 added to the formula for in combat mana regeneration. 10 spell hit rating.

22 Intellect adds 4.7 to the formula for combat mana regeneration, and 0 spell hit rating, dunno where you're getting these from.

I still think 20 spirit and 20 haste are better than 20 int. Spi beats intellect in terms of regen on fights longer than 4-5 minutes (more if you're blood elf which i'm not), and int has marginally more HPS than haste and even then i'd rather have haste as it allows me to heal more people in a given amount of time.

Plus i dont like lines grayed out on my gear.

**Hendrixstorm** · 2011-02-23, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by thoukaia

22 Intellect adds 4.7 to the formula for combat mana regeneration, and 0 spell hit rating, dunno where you're getting these from.

I still think 20 spirit and 20 haste are better than 20 int. Spi beats intellect in terms of regen on fights longer than 4-5 minutes (more if you're blood elf which i'm not), and int has marginally more HPS than haste and even then i'd rather have haste as it allows me to heal more people in a given amount of time.

Plus i dont like lines grayed out on my gear.

The hit rating was in regards to spirit, and it adds 22 to the formula which is less when it's added together. To my knowledge 4-5 minutes is incorrect, and it's closer to 8 9 or 10 minutes. At that point it becomes marginally better, although the fact that haste does increase the mana you spend to increase throughput and intellect does not and intellect gives you higher max mana, that's probably offset altogether. You will not heal any more players even meeting all sockets than you will without them you just won't gain enough haste for that to happen.

However, like I said to the player who asked the question that got this all started to begin with, the difference is beyond marginal. No raid will ever wipe, no person you are healing will ever die, because of stats that are superior by fractions of a percent. It is personal preference plain and simple. Regardless of that, the intellect gems are still better, and Simca was correct.

**Nillo** · 2011-02-23, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Hendrixstorm

I didn't need to give a flat out statement to have a conclusion. What is provided is enough to tell that intellect is superior to what is gained from the other gem.

Not really because you didn't give any numbers for spirit to compare and no numbers to compare haste to SP....

All you did was provide some formulas which could then lead to the conclusion. (but still with way too many steps necessary for any ordinary person to know why they're so close in the end)

**Simca** · 2011-02-23, 10:34 AM

Honestly, if we're going to debate this heavily over it, I think I've failed in my purpose as a guide - to offer choices.

Right now I'm exhausted but in the morning I'll add a section about "optional" gemming setups.

I'll probably include this line too if you don't mind Hendrix:

Originally Posted by Hendrixstorm

The difference is beyond marginal. No raid will ever wipe, no person you are healing will ever die, because of stats that are superior by fractions of a percent. It is personal preference plain and simple.

**Quirinus** · 2011-02-23, 12:15 PM

I might be wrong on this but here goes;

The point made on the first page about ToR being pretty much useless as you should always use your beacon on another target is a point I kind of disagree with.
I believe in min/maxing, and as such I believe in having two holy specs for PvE. There is fights where ToR is saving you fuckloads of mana, atleast thats how I feel it.
I unfortunally don't have logs, so I guess you'll disregard my argument pretty quickly, but I'll say them anyway.

Fights like Nefarian, Chimaeron, Magmaw, and Cho'gall (To name a few)
is where I believe ToR shines bright. I realise that on these fights, you're not beaconing your main healing target, but there's alot of tank switching in these fights. When your tanks switch, having the beacon on the tank taking over, resulting in a couple of holy powers, will help you top them off quite quickly, and thus managing the situation a bit better.

To take Chimaeron HC as an example, on this fight, there's a tank switch (At least in our tactic) every feud. This is right after a massacre, meaning you'll have to top the tank taking damage up quite quickly, with the extra holy power gained from healing him with beacon (Which should already be applied) you'll be able to do so, and be ready in a few GCDs.

Another example is Nefarian, where I'm assigned to heal the Onyxia/Add tank. Having beacon on him helps me manage my mana while taking down onyxia, to help me keep it for the entire fight.
During the third phase, having beacon on him, helps me stack up holy power quickly, and thus being able to move alot more, and thus keeping him alive alot more efficiently.

**Elessa** · 2011-02-23, 12:17 PM

Thanks Hendrix, but the thing is that the mp5 gained from Divine Plea, Replenishment and Divinity glyph is really hard to calculate for my 10 man. We only have a Shadow Priest giving replenish and for some fights it isn't up 100%. The only fights we are having problem with is Cho'Gall and possibly Nefarian (haven't tried him yet), Al'Akir will die within the first hour of a raid if we actually get people to try him. All of those fights will last pretty long, reducing the value of int a little bit and increasing the value of spirit. Those three fights are the ones I want to gear for. I don't care about my HPS on farm content that we will one or two shot anyway.

So, if Intellet is only a fraction of a percent ahead of the spirit/haste when you are counting mp5 from Divine Plea as it would be used every CD and Replenishment as it would have 100% uptime. I don't know about you guys, but on most fights I'm usually at 90%+ mana for the first minute or two into the fight, and of course I don't plea during that time. So If my first plea is 2 minutes into the fight, and after that almost everytie it's off CD and replenishment has about 95% uptime, is 20 Int still better than 20 spirit and haste for me?

**Simca** · 2011-02-23, 01:44 PM

It's ironic - Int is definitely not better than the 20 Haste/Spirit for me now that I think about it then.

I don't have Replenishment in my 10-mans, and there is no easy way for us to get Replenishment without switching one class for another (which we intend to do for heroics).

Before you try to lecture me how mandatory Replenishment is... I'm quite aware... I've done the math. At the points where I'm going OOM on Cho'gall last weekend, I would have had 60k more mana, at least. It just leads to mandatory Potion of Concentration and Divine Plea on cooldown use.

**Hendrixstorm** · 2011-02-23, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Simca

It's ironic - Int is definitely not better than the 20 Haste/Spirit for me now that I think about it then.

I don't have Replenishment in my 10-mans, and there is no easy way for us to get Replenishment without switching one class for another (which we intend to do for heroics).

Before you try to lecture me how mandatory Replenishment is... I'm quite aware... I've done the math. At the points where I'm going OOM on Cho'gall last weekend, I would have had 60k more mana, at least. It just leads to mandatory Potion of Concentration and Divine Plea on cooldown use.

I think this whole debate should take a step back. We're talking about stats superior THEORETICALLY better by fractions of a percent in a guide meant to get new and upcoming holy paladins on their feet. This guide really isn't for the hardened veteran to figure out how to min max fractions of a percent of his throughput. This is the guide for the prot or ret paladin in the 10 man guild with his friends who decides/needs to go holy, and wants to know where to begin. He can read this, get the right gems enchants glyphs and talents, can learn what all the spells do and their usage and know exactly what he needs on gear. We can't actually give a new guy healing in a real enviroment, but we can sure as shit prepare him.

Originally Posted by Elessa

. All of those fights will last pretty long, reducing the value of int a little bit and increasing the value of spirit. Those three fights are the ones I want to gear for. I don't care about my HPS on farm content that we will one or two shot anyway.

Let me put it this way. Do you like the look of your socket bonuses being matched? Match them. This difference in gems will not help you kill the boss. I don't need to be in your guild to know why you're wiping on Cho'gall. You're wiping for the same reason I wiped when I learned it, and every guild ever wiped when they learned it. People haven't done the fight. Your gems will not teach people the encounter, and, at least right now with only blue quality gems, they will never save a life or make or break a raid. This is downright personal preference. This all started by calling into question if the intellect gems were superior. In most situations, theoretically, yes. In everyones situation where theory is broken by in game experience? Probably not. Do whatever makes you feel like skipping in flowers.

**Simca** · 2011-02-23, 03:46 PM

I <3 you.

I totally agree.

**Atris** · 2011-02-24, 10:27 AM

Nice and interesting guide Simca!

Maybe you should add "Holy Paladin healing tips for different encounters" section to the guide in the future. Like when you can use Divine Plea (drake switching on Valiona), what glyph is somehow beneficial for an encounter (Glyph of Divine Protection + BoSanc owns on Nefarian) etc.
It will help new holy paladins and sometimes may inspire veterans to see new ways to make their healing even more efficient (or post here their different point of view).
Thanks in advance!

**Simca** · 2011-02-24, 10:35 AM

An interesting idea - definitely one I'll have to look into adding.

As I mention in the beginning - my guild isn't amazing - I've only seen 10/12 so far. I still know the fights well enough and know people who know them well enough to put something pretty good together though.

**Shop Ebay** · 2011-02-25, 06:00 AM

I'm 10/12 too, not because I suck but because I don't feel like leaving the fun guild im in. A large group of the skilled memebers of our felt the urge to join a high ranked guild, hence the 10/12

On topic though, I havent seen anyone discuss seal of insight and auto attacking the boss for 4% base mana.

**Simca** · 2011-02-25, 06:42 AM

Good point. I'm usually opposed to it because casting resets the swing timer, which means you can't heal while doing it... and by nature, I'm a very spammy healer. Anything that requires me to stop casting (unless it is moving) is something I'm generally opposed to.

However, with Word of Glory and Judgement not reseting the swing timer, I suppose people who were exceptionally awesome could sneak melees in while still 'casting'.

I'll mention it (both casting and non-casting) along with the other changes in the next revision.

**Faithshield** · 2011-02-25, 02:20 PM

Great guide, thank you. Nice touch with the title also!

**Hendrixstorm** · 2011-02-25, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Shop Ebay

On topic though, I havent seen anyone discuss seal of insight and auto attacking the boss for 4% base mana.

I can add a little to that from when it was brushed over in the EJ thread. The haste which most players are sitting around will usually lead to about 10 seconds being a little above 1k mp5, which isn't bad at all. It's a really, really tough call just like crusader strike. For the time that you do it, your hps goes to absolute 0, but if you really think about the fight and are 2 steps ahead of the boss, you could totally get away with it. For example, if you're on nefarian in p3 with another healer, between crackles there really is only the nefarian tank to heal. Nefarian, at least compared to other bosses, hit's pretty hard, but you certainly don't need to let loose flurries of divine lights to keep him alive. I could totally see assigning the one healer to mostly the tank (especially a disc priest) and you could farm some mana between crackles and be largely responsible for getting the raid topped off immediately after. However, I am personally 8/13 heroic modes, and I know Diamondtear said something about this a long the lines of "I never touch crusader strike, and only on certain fights do I melee" and personally I don't really see that many heroic modes where you could get away with any/significant melee swings. Conclave definatley, maybe Chimaron and Twin dragons. Definatley can't get away with it often.

In a pvp situation, it leaves you extremley exposed to come out of your pillar and melee. It's why people are complaining about HoJs' melee range for holy spec. DPS are just drooling the second you come out of that pillar to lock you into CC that will never end. I wouldn't recommend doing it hardly at all.

For the most part, that's it. It wasn't given much discussion. If you do it often though because you can or like to, it does put haste above spirit as a secondary stat. (If often enough)

**Dareios** · 2011-02-27, 09:03 AM

Nice guide, thanks. Think the community needed a clearcut guide like this.

**Simca** · 2011-02-27, 05:57 PM

Thanks! Community feedback is what keeps me going.

I have been super busy (new PTR Patch = forum explosion that has to be contained). However, I hope to do a large update in the next 3 or so days.

I wanted to see if anyone had any feedback on something I wrote a few days ago. "It's all really terrible, don't include that" is an okay response (but I'd prefer if it was said nicer).

Originally Posted by Simca

Honestly, it depends a lot on the fights.

My problem with how people use cooldowns

The way most people handle cooldowns is just sticking everything into a macro and pushing it a bunch, or macroing it into their heals, or all kinds of other silly stuff.

I’m very opposed to this - healing cooldowns should be used intelligently, not just - “OH CRAP LET’S BLOW EVERY COOLDOWN NOW.”

SOMETIMES, it is a good idea to use multiple cooldowns, even 2 or 3, but only very rarely would you even want to use all of them at once - that’s a huge waste. Let me give an example of how to stagger cooldowns.

An example I'm about to get flamed (lolMagmawpun) for

For example, let's pick Magmaw (in before 12 posts of "LOLOLOLWHYWOULDUNEEDCOOLDOWNSONMAGMAW"). I know, it is an extremely easy fight, but it is an easy example that most people can relate to. Most people on these forums have done normal Magmaw, probably successfully. Just pretend you were 1-healing it for a World of Logs parse or something.

Now, the most dangerous ability for healers to worry about on Magmaw is probably Lava Spew (well, mangle too, but that is really easy to heal through on Normal with Beacon and maybe a Divine Light or two if your tank is smart and uses his cooldowns and you use Hand of Sacrifice). Lava Spew is cast around every 20 seconds (besides during Phase 2) in a series of quick bursts on the entire raid. Knowing that, here's an example of how I might use my cooldowns

Cooldowns on Magmaw Normal

You'll want to use a Divine Favor right before one of his Lava Spews (his first one if no other healer is using cooldowns at that point; make sure to coordinate with them), and you'll want to Holy Radiance right when he casts it. The reason for this is that Divine Favor's haste buff affects the Holy Radiance cast, giving you a few extra Holy Radiance ticks than usual. You'll want to use Holy Radiance basically nearly on cooldown in Magmaw anyway (after every Lava Spew). You'll also want to be saving Light of Dawns for his Lava Spews too, and throwing Hands of Protection on people who fail on Pillar of Flames (it prevents fall damage AND prevents the worms from latching on!).

As for stuff like Avenging Wrath, use that right after another a different Lava Spew (usually, stacking the cooldown with Divine Favor wouldn't be a terrible idea, but we are talking normal Magmaw here, most of that would be overhealing).

Using Aura Mastery on a Lava Spew your other cooldowns (Divine Favor, Avenging Wrath) aren't up for is a great idea too.

Guardian of Ancient Kings - same idea.

How Lava Spew Works

A quick analysis of my combat log shows something like this:
0:00 - Magmaw pulled
0:22 - 1st Lava Spew
0:44 - 2nd Lava Spew
1:07 - 3rd Lava Spew
1:34 - 4th Lava Spew
2:29 - 5th Lava Spew
3:01 - 6th Lava Spew
5:06 - 7th Lava Spew
5:31 - 8th Lava Spew
6:41 - 9th Lava Spew
Dead

Lava Spew lasts for around 3 seconds, and ticks around 3 ticks on each raid member.

How to Plan Cooldown Use

In response to seeing a combat log like this, I'd do a quick plan.

0:00 - Magmaw pulled.
0:22 - First Spew. Activate Divine Favor. I'll use my Holy Radiance and Light of Dawn (should time Holy Power for this - account for Blessed Life too)
0:44 - Second Spew. Using Avenging Wrath here because my Holy Radiance is still down. Light of Dawn too, of course. If you have another healer friend, ask them to use their CDs here too.
0:52 - Holy Radiance comes off cooldown.
1:07 - 3rd Lava Spew - Holy Radiance. Using Aura Mastery here.
1:34 - 4th Lava Spew - Guardian of Ancient Kings on 5x Divine Lights (or maybe 3-4x DL and 1-2 HS, really varies tbh)
1:37 - Holy Radiance comes off cooldown.
2:29 - 5th Lava Spew - Holy Radiance - potentially ask a friend for CDs if things get bad, probably won’t since you’ve been keeping people up near full with all your cooldowns.
2:44 - Avenging Wrath comes off cooldown.
2:59 - Holy Radiance comes off cooldown.
3:01 - 6th Lava Spew - Holy Radiance and Avenging Wrath
3:07 - Aura Mastery comes off cooldown.
3:22 - Divine Favor comes off cooldown.
3:31 - Holy Radiance comes off cooldown.
5:01 - Avenging Wrath comes off cooldown.
5:06 - 7th Lava Spew. Activate Divine Favor. I'll use my Holy Radiance as well.
5:31 - 8th Lava Spew. Activate Avenging Wrath. If you have another healer friend, ask them to use their CDs here too.
5:36 - Holy Radiance comes off cooldown. Use it immediately to help heal remaining Lava Spew damage.
6:06 - Holy Radiance comes off cooldown.
6:41 - 9th Lava Spew. Activate Aura Mastery and Holy Radiance

Note: I rewrote these more than once - when I was going down through it, I’d realize, hey, I don’t end up with any cooldowns here, or I’m not maximizing my cooldown usage on X. You can’t just write them once and call it done.

Now of course, these timings are not exact and are very rough and change between attempts (use Timers though - they are usually accurate in Cataclysm - things are preeeetttyy scripted). This still gives you a good idea like…

Rough Final Ideas

Start
1-2 seconds before the first Lava Spew, use Divine Favor. Then use Holy Radiance when it hits.
1-2 seconds before the second Lava Spew, use Avenging Wrath. Ask a healer friend for CD help here if possible.
1 second before the third Lava Spew, use Aura Mastery (it has a short duration, but you want to use it preemptively to get every tick of Spew covered!). Use Holy Radiance when it hits.
1-2 seconds before the fourth Lava Spew, use Guardian of Ancient Kings.
On the fifth Lava Spew, use Holy Radiance. Potentially ask a friend for CDs if things get bad, but things probably won’t since you’ve been keeping people up near full with all your cooldowns.
1-2 seconds before the sixth Lava Spew, use Avenging Wrath. Then when it hits, use Holy Radiance.
1-2 seconds before the seventh Lava Spew, use Divine Favor. Then use Holy Radiance when it hits.
1-2 seconds before the eighth Lava Spew, use Avenging Wrath. Ask a healer friend for CD help here if possible.
Immediately when Holy Radiance comes off cooldown after the eighth Lava Spew, use it.
1 second before the ninth Lava Spew, use Aura Mastery. Use Holy Radiance when it hits.
Dead Magmaw

I’ll probably go into the fight and do something fairly similar to this, and things will work out pretty well.

If people really like that (or like it but think it could use changes), I'll definitely include it in the next revision.

**Hendrixstorm** · 2011-02-27, 06:58 PM

Magmaw specific:
Looking at last tuesday's log, there appears to be only 2 spews before a properly done rodeo (As I recall, he will start spewing as soon as the players land on his head, but that can be interrupted by landing the hooks quickly), which would change how cooldowns are used.

Generally:
During high AoE phases it's pretty easy to spike up to 25k HPS without cooldowns (Briefly) so if it lasts, say 8 seconds You'd have a total of 200k unmodified healing to work with. Avenging wrath leads to an additional 40k healing, essentially 2 free divine lights. The measurable part of divine favor adds 20% casting speed, so if one assumes in 8 seconds you got off 4 divine lights (trying to avoid Light of dawn because it's very hard to actually measure the benefit of crit when not looking at a long term segment of combat) which would mean that you'd get about one more divine light off. So, another 20k. You'd also get another (I think just one...it could be 2) tick of holy radiance, (Ticks average 350x25) so an additional 8750 healing, totaling a little over 30k additional healing. Like I said, it's reallllllyy hard to add in crit to a segment of combat that small, and with crit divine favor SHOULD beat out avenging wrath (no contest when you ride out the full duration of the buff, being that divine favor lasts 50% longer) but when you're talking about something like spew/nezir fully charged/crackle etc, I always burn AW first.

Here's how I look at it:
If the fight is <9min you will get 2 divine favors off pretty much always. It is possible to get more if you use one wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy early, but 90% of the time using the CD intelligently you really only need use it twice.

In a fight over 9 minutes you will get 3, and no more. Again, it's theoretically possible to use it 4 times, but that'd mean just burning it on CD like some silly dps player.

AW however, has a 50% shorter cooldown, and doesn't have nearly the long term impact that Divine favor does. AW is a free nilly willy cooldown, so I'd use that as often as possible because you really can get an additional use, sometimes two, if you use it quickly and often. Magmaw specifically is a little harder to look at because it's not like nefarian or nezir where health pools race back up after dropping, it does take a little while to recover from spew, but that's hard to measure because it varies on your other healers. GENERALLY HOWEVER, I use AW as often as possible and have pinpoints for divine favor.

**Firecrest** · 2011-02-27, 07:42 PM

The DP buff doesn't have anything to do with the increased regeneration. The buff is the decreased duration. Dropping from 15 seconds to 9 was significant. Increasing from 15% to 18% was no big deal.

You neglected to mention anything at all about FoL.

Crusader Strike deserves a spot on every Holy Pally's bars. Not a ton of use, mind you, but it is a tool that should not be neglected.

AM should be used when massive resistance damage is going out. Using it on CD is not a good idea.

The whole of the 3.3 section that's supposed to be on Mana Management has absolutely nothing to do with managing mana. You've basically said "use your mana" without providing any detail whatsoever into the key abilities and tactics we have for using it wisely.

I strongly disagree with 3.4's instructions to always be casting. It's funny that you would put this right after the section on mana management. You know what our greatest mana conservation tool is? Not casting. 1) If nothing's happening, don't cast. Every healer should strive to know the parts of the fight where they can take a breather. Name a fight and I can tell you the periods of time where I'm regaining mana. 2) If you're under Plea, don't cast. With a 9 second duration, if you have to cast during Plea, you shouldn't have Plea'ed. 3) If you're not well equipped to handle what's happening, don't cast. You can waste a bunch of mana and globals topping a handful of people off, or you can let the Priest or Shaman do his job in half the time for a fraction of the cost.

The second sentence of the paragraph heading 4.1 makes no sense as written. And, if I understand the point you're trying to make, doesn't really bear mentioning in the first place.

Where do you get that Protector of the Innocent transfers through Beacon? I've looked at enough Tank death reports that I think I'd notice if my Beacon hit twice in a row every time I cast something.

I'm less sure about Judgement Heals transferring through Beacon, but I can't say I've ever seen one. Are you sure about this?

AM is very much not an "optional" talent. A lot of bad Pallies run around without this. Let's not fuel that fire.

Glyph of LoH is much much better than you give it credence for. There are a good number of fights where you can LoH twice (as you noted, the end boss fights fall into this category). But more importantly than that, this glyph allows you to have LoH up for every attempt on a progression boss.

This guide is fairly bloated with information you don't need. There's no need to bring up every conceivable glyph, for example. List the ones you should be using and provide one or two (at most) alternatives. The EJ guide says all that needs to be said. What I had hoped to see here (and what this community really needs) is a TLDR version. Something that can be fully read in under 5 minutes that provides a brief synopses on how to Holy Pally. People need a quick start guide they can use to make sure they don't completely blow their first raid and then they can come back for specifics later once they've started doing it for themselves.

Maybe it's just me, but that's how I've tried to start every new alt I've ever made. Get the basics, try the basics, come back for specific questions and in depth learning. I mean, if I were a new Pally and came to this thread, I'd walk away with not much more than a headache due to brain overload.

**Simca** · 2011-02-27, 10:02 PM