Holy Paladin Guide - Updated for 4.3.4

[Firecrest]

3. I strongly disagree here. We have 2 Holy Paladins and a Holy Priest, so if it is a big AoE fight where everyone had to stay very spread out (I guess an example is Elementium Montrosity), you want the Paladins to stop casting so the Priest burns through her entire mana pool? I think that would be pretty silly advice.

Yours is not a typical raid composition. In fact, it's rather sub par. From the average raider point of view (and definitely any 25 man raider), it is best to let the person who can most effectively take care of a situation take care of it.

In your situation, there's bound to be plenty of situations where you have people performing tasks they're not well suited to. However, in most 10 mans and every 25 man, you will have multiple other healers that are just better equipped to deal with some situations that we, as Holy Pallies, simply cannot effectively handle. Generally speaking, this is moderate damage that affects some portion of the raid, but not all of it. A chain lightning that knocks roughly 25% health off of a few people is the perfect example. You can cast five DLs at a cost of roughly 40k mana across 10 seconds or your Shaman can press Chain Heal twice and be done inside of 4 seconds with a cost of 10k mana spent

[Hendrixstorm]

You can cast five DLs at a cost of roughly 40k mana across 10 seconds or your Shaman can press Chain Heal twice and be done inside of 4 seconds with a cost of 10k mana spent

That's a statement that makes absolutely no sense to me. Chain heal is horribly gimped by range and otherwise pathetically weak. If some kind of limpy damage goes out that you're just letting other healers take care of it you really think the best way to counter that is 5 divine lights? Healing a few targets after an AoE is the one part of the game paladins are best at. Getting larger groups of people healed is where we continue to struggle, so I don't know what you are talking about that paladins cannot effectively handle a few members of the raid taking moderate damage. I strongly disagree with a lot of what you've said, because a lot of it seems baseless and your arguments kinda fall in on themselves.

Why would you not cast? What fights are you even close to pushing your mana on? The first heroic mode thus far that has actually gotten me to run on fumes even for a brief period of time was Valiona and Theralion, which was a well over 9 minute fight touching on the enrage timer with people taking loads of unneeded splash damage. It's not that I'm just tossing out weak heals when I should be using divine light, Divine Light is always my top heal, but there's simply enough downtime in this tier to have plenty of free holy lights. You're overselling mana by a longshot.

I strongly disagree with 3.4's instructions to always be casting. It's funny that you would put this right after the section on mana management. You know what our greatest mana conservation tool is? Not casting. 1) If nothing's happening, don't cast. Every healer should strive to know the parts of the fight where they can take a breather. Name a fight and I can tell you the periods of time where I'm regaining mana. 2) If you're under Plea, don't cast. With a 9 second duration, if you have to cast during Plea, you shouldn't have Plea'ed. 3) If you're not well equipped to handle what's happening, don't cast. You can waste a bunch of mana and globals topping a handful of people off, or you can let the Priest or Shaman do his job in half the time for a fraction of the cost.

Where do you get that Protector of the Innocent transfers through Beacon? I've looked at enough Tank death reports that I think I'd notice if my Beacon hit twice in a row every time I cast something.

I'm less sure about Judgement Heals transferring through Beacon, but I can't say I've ever seen one. Are you sure about this?

Glyph of LoH is much much better than you give it credence for. There are a good number of fights where you can LoH twice (as you noted, the end boss fights fall into this category). But more importantly than that, this glyph allows you to have LoH up for every attempt on a progression boss.

This guide is fairly bloated with information you don't need. There's no need to bring up every conceivable glyph, for example. List the ones you should be using and provide one or two (at most) alternatives. The EJ guide says all that needs to be said. What I had hoped to see here (and what this community really needs) is a TLDR version. Something that can be fully read in under 5 minutes that provides a brief synopses on how to Holy Pally. People need a quick start guide they can use to make sure they don't completely blow their first raid and then they can come back for specifics later once they've started doing it for themselves.

Maybe it's just me, but that's how I've tried to start every new alt I've ever made. Get the basics, try the basics, come back for specific questions and in depth learning. I mean, if I were a new Pally and came to this thread, I'd walk away with not much more than a headache due to brain overload.

If I haven't removed it from the quote, I disagree with it entirely.


If there is downtime where healing would result in largely overheals, then sure, I guess it makes sense to stop casting. I do not see any heroic mode encounter where this occurs. Even in head down magmaw phase the offtank is still taking damage. I see no reason ever to not be casting at any point in the fight, nor have I ever seen anyone bring it up in theorycrafting as a good idea. As such, I really don't see any reason to stop casting. You can easily top people off with a light of dawn, and get HoPo back before you need it.

Both enlightened judgement and protector of the innocent heals also transfer to your beacon. It's been this way since both talents were released.

Glyph of LoH can be a good glyph. If you get an extra use, great, that's possibly another 10% mana. I'm not working my huge tank saving cooldown into a mp5 rotation, period. That's just a poor use of the spell. It should be up for every progression boss, I've never glyphed it and never had an issue with it going through normal modes or up to 8/13 in heroic modes. I've never once tried to cast it and have it be on cooldown, I understand how such a thing could happen, but instead of giving up additional throughput/mp5/surviability maybe you should just say something to your raid leader, asking him for a couple minutes instead of hurting your play.

Here's the reality of the cataclysm, you can't read the 5 line paragraph and be good to go like you have been in the past. Gem this enchant that put your talents here use this spell HAVE FUN RAIDING! The guide needs to be so large because, as with a lot of things in this expansion for better or for worse, a lot more is in the hands of the player than before. You need to make your own decisions on a LOT of things. Glyphs are not cut and dry, neither are gems or talents anymore. The toolbox has multiplied from being a holy paladin in the past.

If you're really not interested in being able to make your own decision by getting all the information you need, you'd be better off asking trade your questions, instead of reading a lengthy guide.

Who is this guide for if not for high-end raiders and not for new players? I guess just for that middle level of Holy Paladins like myself.

This guide is best suited from someone who is switching specs and has raid experience, or someone who needs quick clarification on how something works. Someone who is brand new leveled to 85 as ret never healed before in his life will probably seizure at this guide, that's true. Then again, if you leveled to 85 as ret and never even touched holy, it's more or less the same as buying a holy paladin off ebay, and teaching someone to play who essentially bought their character (In the sense that they have no clue what these spells do beyond what the tooltip shows) has always been a nearly impossible task. This guide is perfect for it's audiance.

[Twillie]

Thanks for the good guide! I just started healing again on my pala so this was good to read to see the changes in cata. Completely different from wotlk spam. It's much more fun now!

[Nevara]

I'm likely swapping from Priest to Paladin for raids, this has been invaluable in getting my lazy arse up to speed. Awesome as always. I'd hug you, but that sort of things can land a chap in trouble these days.

Edit: And everyone else who contributed, I like you too.

[Xs]

Very well done Simca. Glad someone else did it before I took a crack at it again

Doing very well with the peer feedback as well, and I'll add with this bump to start the discussion on the new tier 4 set bonus:

The current Holy paladin 4-piece raid set bonus now grants 540 Spirit for 6 seconds after casting Holy Shock.

Not that there is much discussion on this from how I see it, this is now as solid and amazing of a set bonus as it is for all the other healers, and should become BiS given the current state of tier vs non sets.

Keep up the good work man, one piece of constructive criticism (although I'm having to kinda split hairs, you've done such a nice job of it) is that the formatting is a little wall of text-ish in places. One piece of advice for that is to zoom out so you can barely read the text and looking for large chunks. If you can justify them being chunks that's fine but otherwise they could be worded differently either to shorten them or turn them in several paragraphs.

Again, good job man

[Nillo]

Doing very well with the peer feedback as well, and I'll add with this bump to start the discussion on the new tier 4 set bonus:

The current Holy paladin 4-piece raid set bonus now grants 540 Spirit for 6 seconds after casting Holy Shock.

Not that there is much discussion on this from how I see it, this is now as solid and amazing of a set bonus as it is for all the other healers, and should become BiS given the current state of tier vs non sets.
Not that there is much discussion on this from how I see it, this is now as solid and amazing of a set bonus as it is for all the other healers, and should become BiS given the current state of tier vs non sets.

I can't see this being much of an upgrade considering that it comes out with the next content patch and then it might not even be that much better than the current bonus unless casting a second HS within the 6 seconds will stack it, which I doubt.
Better than now, but not nearly as amazing as the 100% uptime Holy Priest and Druid versions.

[Xs]

I can't see this being much of an upgrade considering that it comes out with the next content patch and then it might not even be that much better than the current bonus unless casting a second HS within the 6 seconds will stack it, which I doubt.
Better than now, but not nearly as amazing as the 100% uptime Holy Priest and Druid versions.

Its pretty much 100% uptime, certainly better than the old version but it does indeed come too late

[Simca]

Both the 3.1 and 4.1 PTRs were released on Feb 24th (weird!). One in 2009 and one in 2011, of course, but the point is that with 3.1 releasing on April 14th, 2009... we shouldn't expect 4.1 until at least like April 12th, 2011.

So yeah, definitely not putting it in the guide for a while, although... I probably should add a note on how it is going to be good.

[Nillo]

Its pretty much 100% uptime, certainly better than the old version but it does indeed come too late

Just going to quote myself here:

There's no way you'll ever get a 90% uptime.
By my estimation you might even go as low as 50-60% uptime if it doesn't stack.
Just looking at the nef log from last night I used 74 holy shocks in 8:48 (=8.8 minutes) out of that 34 were from Daybreak procs and with the way I usually use them (HS -> HS) a daybreak proc only adds about 1-2 seconds of uptime unless it stacks (so at best I'd say 1/3 of the uptime for Daybreak uses). This would give me 40 + ~ 1/3*34 = 50-55 HS of uptime which would be 55*6/(8.8*60) = 5/8 = 62.5% uptime.
Compared to that I had 21.2% uptime on HR => simply multiply by 3 to account for the magnitude of the effect and I get 63.6% uptime.

Conclusion: If it doesn't stack the bonus will still remain very situational. If it does it will still be only at 7.4/8.8 = 85% for me.

PS: I've also checked a few other fights and it doesn't look any different.
But whatever we're just speculating here it'd be better if someone could provide some data from the Ptr.

[Simca]

PS: I've also checked a few other fights and it doesn't look any different.
But whatever we're just speculating here it'd be better if someone could provide some data from the Ptr.

It's still not live on the PTR. There's no patch yet.

[Hendrixstorm]

It's still not live on the PTR. There's no patch yet.

This is correct, and as it already has been stated, this is a 4.1 intended change, not a planned hotfix. This won't affect you wanting tier at all except maybe some shoulder and head tokens. The reality is you probably won't push your mana on normal mode encounters in the next tier, and by the time you have pushed through normal modes, it's likely you'll already have substantial gear from those raids, making t11 worthless. It's not a bad idea, although I don't get why the duration can't be a few seconds longer, but it is way, way too late. If you do decide that you want this (which is something I'd probably still advise against) remeber that come 4.1 the current valor gear will be obtainable through justice points, and therefore you can easily get any tier you want through running heroics. To my knowledge, the shoulder and head tier peices will still require a token, but that's surely subject to change.

[Tunasaladin]

Just a quick question for anyone who doesn't like to be mean=D

Is it worth getting more than the soft cap haste? I am sitting at 12.78% right now.. What are you thoughts?

[Sadinar]

Haste is still superior to both crit and mastery in improving HPS even at the soft cap; while it will only marginally improve HR's effectiveness you're still cutting down on DL/HL cast times which is useful. It may go down in value after the soft cap, but it is still superior to any other option so you should still angle for it.

[Simca]

Haste is still superior to both crit and mastery in improving HPS even at the soft cap; while it will only marginally improve HR's effectiveness you're still cutting down on DL/HL cast times which is useful. It may go down in value after the soft cap, but it is still superior to any other option so you should still angle for it.

Exactly this. People often bring up the soft cap on Haste. While there are critical points that cause slight drops in the value of Haste, Haste still remains better than Crit or Mastery, even at its lower points.

[Tunasaladin]

Thanks so much for the info!

[Wuzseen]

Absolutely wonderful guide, every hpally should see this!

[Simca]

Okay, time to change some things. These are my personal notes, so they may not make a whole lot of sense, but...

Suggestions/changes from myself while re-reading:

• Mention this is mainly a PvE guide
• Re-add a section on professions - going to be brief though
• Improve section on cooldown use based on existing writeup in a different thread
• Perhaps mention more about how awesome Light of Dawn is in a different way - a picture of its range would be awesome
• Create my own version of the mana regeneration spreadsheet for people to play around with - doubtful... I doubt anyone really cares about the math anyway
• Rewrite section 3 mostly

Suggestions from others:

• Change socket bonus section to be less specific and more 'in general'
• Add a section on Seal of Insight and Auto Attacking
• Check to see if I called the Divine Plea buff only an increase because of the 1% change and if so, change it
• Mention more about Flash of Light
• Add a section for Crusader Strike
• Change wording on Aura Mastery slightly to mention only using it on cooldown if large damage is frequent
• Improve section on mana management
• Change wording in introduction to mandatory talent section, specifically the second sentence
• Move Aura Mastery to a mandatory talent, which it should have been along with LoD.
• Change wording on Glyph of Lay on Hands to be more favorable, slightly. (there are better glyph choices)
• Make more friendly to new paladins

The very last point is the one I want to focus on and the main reason I'm posting my personal notes here - what do people think about adding recommendation levels for the glyphs and talents, like a "5/5" or whatever. I thought about it originally, but thought it was kind of meh, so I left it out. Firecrest mentioned it isn't very useful for new paladins though, so I figured this could improve its readability.

If anyone has any additional suggestions, I'd totally be open to them at this point.

[Xs]

The very last point is the one I want to focus on and the main reason I'm posting my personal notes here - what do people think about adding recommendation levels for the glyphs and talents, like a "5/5" or whatever. I thought about it originally, but thought it was kind of meh, so I left it out. Firecrest mentioned it isn't very useful for new paladins though, so I figured this could improve its readability.

If anyone has any additional suggestions, I'd totally be open to them at this point.

That could be quite risky, very easily cause a flame war for the mods to mop up, although it is a good idea.
A suggestion I can think of to nulify this problem somewhat is keeping it to say a 3 star system, just so you can say "Mandatory" "Personal Choice" and "Gtfo".
One suggestion I'd add is an expansion of the BiS list section, to include a quick trinket BiS list, since they're the ones most people will have competition on. (Or not in the case of at least 3 trinkets) Specially as your gear lists are all difficult to obtain trinkets

[Simca]

Yeah, I agree - that's why I didn't add it originally. I thought it would cause more problems and debate than help.

As for the BiS trinket list... hrm.

I -definitely- want to do something like that, but the problem is I have two options:
1. Steal the math/list from aggixx on Elitist Jerks from his post there
2. Do it myself (this takes time)

I'll likely do it myself, especially considering I just found a spreadsheet with all of the 5-man heroic trinket math done that I apparently made (I don't remember making this) and then compare it against his.

It probably won't make this next version of the guide though. I may link his post for now and give credit and do my own stuff later.

[Hendrixstorm]

Specially as your gear lists are all difficult to obtain trinkets

This I can understand as I can actually feel my sanity and happiness fleeting my body with every Night Elf Archaeology solve, and had my Tsunami deck bought for me, however a real comprehensive list isn't really needed. If you take out the deck and the doll, you're left with all of 3 trinkets to decide over. (If you're not an alchemist of course, if you are then the stone is BiS, even over the doll)

There's the Core, the Jar, and the Fall of Mortality. There really is not a lot of options, in that situation the Fall of Mortality will be the best trinket you can get your hands on, and after that it's a choice between throughput and less regen or more regen and no throughput. That's something that can't be graphed mapped or mathed. It's possible to lay out the extra mana you could potentially gain over the course of the fight and convert that into additional potential healing, but that's a flawed system beyond measure. It's personal choice between 2 available trinkets, it doesn't necessarily need it's own listing.

UNLESS you were also talking about 346 heroic 5 man gear going into raids and everything I have said above is folly. If you feel that a list should be made for what you can get before raiding, where the options are marginally larger, then that may need it's own section.

I thought about it originally, but thought it was kind of meh, so I left it out. Firecrest mentioned it isn't very useful for new paladins though, so I figured this could improve its readability.

Based on feedback thus far it's fine as is. You did mention planning on making a few wording changes, and changing a few sections around will definatley help. However, as I said once before, a brand spanking new paladin will seizure at the sight of the guide. That's the nature of trying to throw a brand spanking new player into the game this late, who didn't learn it patch by patch like a lot of us did. That has a lot to do with the length of the guide, but it makes more sense for a player to rise to the level of being able to learn instead of toning it down to be acceptable by the lowest common denominator. That's what wrath was all about and we all know how that went.