Holy Paladin Guide - Updated for 4.3.3

**Validity** · 2011-02-20, 09:09 PM

Lovely guide

. I've been considering making my Draenei-din holy, but I'd have to race change him first. Draenei males just don't make good casters.

**Azoris** · 2011-02-21, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Hendrixstorm

No offense, but some of the points were a little bit difficult to read because of your English, but I think I get your idea. Here's what you missed
Nothing but Glyph of Divinity and DP (Casted by the paladin only) return a % of max mana. Judgement is BASE mana. Tryande's doll is 4200 mana no matter how much your max mana is. Starting the fight out with the tinker on anything but nefarian is goofy. Yes, you can have a little more to use at the start, but that in no way outweighs the passive spellpower, crit, and bonus spirit regeneration from intellect. Not to mention replenishment. Using engineering gloves would not save anyone who's going to die. It will slightly reduce the penalty of the buff, but not in any way shape or form will it negate it. It won't even scratch the surface, and as the game goes on, the impact will be less and less. Here's the problem with timing the tinker. Even if you wait say, 10 seconds to use it, then you're greatly devaluing the total intellect you get over the course of the fight, making the gloves even less useful.

No matter how you look at it, there is no reason to take engineering over any other (except for, to my knowledge, Tailoring) crafting profession. None.

Ok ,I'll try to make this as English clear as possible ,allthough I see no problem with my English in my original post. So, yeah judgement is returning base mana but that wasn't the point. The point is that each judgement returns around 3513 mana and costs like 1400 mana to use. So you get 2113 mana each time you use a judgement. When you use both tinker and judgement on start of a fight you get extra 2113 mana that you can spend at the start of fight, and u have 8.5 sec to do so since judgement is going to eat your global cooldown.

Now lets do a comparsion. 80 passive intellect is ,like i wrote, around 1320 mana passively in a fight. So tehnicaly you get more passive mana using tinker + judgement than having passive intellect for the whole fight. Now that isn't some differene in mana, but neither is 1320 constant mana some gamebreaking ammount, it isn't even going to give you a full holy light cost. So you don't need to go spamming divine lights or anything at the start of the fight because you'll easily spend that 2113 mana , unless you're extremely high on mana regen.

Right, now about what you said that passive intellect is better because you get constantly more critical chance, spellpower and spirit regen. This is difficult to do with just mathematically looking at it. It's because of the fight mechanics. I mean, on some fights on-use tinker is extremely good because you can time it with incoming heavy damage (yeah then again that reduces the avg +int you're actually getting from tinker. Just like you said that if you don't use it straight away when its ready you're going to devalue it's worth). Strictly mathematically speaking , both passive 80 int and 480 on use for 10 sec every 60sec (if you use the tinker each time it pops of the cd) are equal in terms of spell power, critical chance and spirit regen because you're getting more regen/crit/spell power for a short ammount of time every 60 sec instead of having it passively all the time ,which in the end evens out.

Anyways since I don't want to leave an impression I'm actually defending engineering as a top proffesion or anything close to it, I'm going to say that using a volcanic potion at the start of the fight absolutely kills any chance of engineering being close to a good proffesion for a holy pally

mysteel - Oh, I wasn't aware of the fact that you can't use both tyrande's trinket and tinker at the same time. That really sucks. But yeah ,my point is more on the judgement+tinker side of engineering than judgement+doll+tinker ,since not every1 has the doll.

I would love to see some1 do some numbers with tailoring so we can see how effective it actually is,allthough I must say I prefer on-use effects instead of proc effects

**Arganaut** · 2011-02-21, 02:01 PM

I did a lot of Holy Healing in TBC but only dipped back into it at the weekend for an offspec roll.

I am amazed how far Holy has come since TBC.

It seems to be an extremely polished spec, with a vast toolkit for every occasion, the Holy Power system is interesting with different generators and ways to spend it, and the mastery is pretty cool.

I am simply amazed how Blizzard got this spec so right, but Retribution so wrong.

**Simca** · 2011-02-21, 02:07 PM

Yeah, there are so many choices and cooldowns for every situation - it is pretty awesome.

Only thing that could possibly be better is our mastery (honestly, it's just a numbers issue) and if crit was slightly more desirable.

I'll try to work on professions and some math for them either today or tomorrow.

**Nillo** · 2011-02-21, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Simca

Y
Only thing that could possibly be better is our mastery (honestly, it's just a numbers issue) and if crit was slightly more desirable.

I really wonder if you can call that a number issue - the main issue still remains, that it doesn't stack and lasts too short. i actually think the numbers would be ok if you wouldn't loose most of it to overheal and it running out.
If they try to just boost the numbers it may get extremely overpowered in some situation, while still being meehhhh in others.

**Simca** · 2011-02-21, 05:01 PM

Well, what if they changed our mastery so that it caused all of our heals to splash by 10%?

Or maybe just all of our Beacon of Light ticks to AoE splash by X%.

They could do something cool.

Edit: Eh, it'd probably be too overpowered though.

**eternalwhitemoon** · 2011-02-21, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Simca

Well, what if they changed our mastery so that it caused all of our heals to splash by 10%?

Or maybe just all of our Beacon of Light ticks to AoE splash by X%.

They could do something cool.

Glyph of Holy Light as our mastery...I can dig it.

**L05_PL** · 2011-02-21, 05:26 PM

If you don't believe me, plug your values into the mana regeneration sheet I linked and play with the numbers. Intellect gives you 90-95% of the regeneration that Spirit gives you AND it gives you Crit and Spell Power. Don't ever Flask Spirit.

well i put my values into the sheet and it seems like if u change 100 spirit into 100 int u will loose around 50mp5 and i need an additional 400int to get back to same combat regen...
it is other when u use DP but still in many fights u cant afford to use DP up to the time that some heavy healing wont be required and usually after that there is like no healing req anyway (for ex. halfus hc)

It's worth noting that unlike other classes, Concentration potions bring our HPS to absolute 0. In 10 seconds, the 12-13k hps you could be doing while not concentrating over 10 seconds (regardless of the time it would take to start casting afterwards) is at least 100k healing down the drain. If you can use it with divine plea and such it does get better, and I'm certainly not trying to make the case that Concentration potions are worthless. I'm just saying it's worth noting that you lose at least 50k healing for 12k mana, which is not even 2 divine lights.

oh that made me laugh... so are you about to heal raid/tanks so they wont die and you maybe will kill boss, or u are looking at the metters and be like "lol we wiped but look i did 1337HPS"
whats the diffrence if your healing will go to 0 for some time (as there are few fights that u r able to stop cast to regen) or at middle of a fight you will get oom and ppl will start dying....?

**Elessa** · 2011-02-21, 08:50 PM

Divinity (3/3)
Even if Divinity was just a flat 6% healing increase for 3 talent points, it would still be mandatory. It affects every spell besides Lay on Hands and increases their scaling and healing. The added self-healing is just a bonus, which should apply to Protector of the Innocent and Enlightened Judgements, powering up the Beacon transfers of those two talents even more.

I'm pretty sure the last part of that is false. Beacon still transferres the original amount of healing to the beacon, even if there is a healing increasing effect on the target of the heal.

Also, about the gemming you suggest. I see you do not gem one blue socket in order to gain a +20 haste bonus in two pieces. I don't really think Int is worth that much more than haste and spirit.

Lets look at the gain/losses:
You gain 20 spirit and 20 haste at the cost of 20 int.

That's double the amount of our two best secondary stats! How can this not be worth it? This might just be personal preference by me though, but I'm matching every socket that only requires one gem and gives a +20 to haste or spirit.

Overall great guide!

---------- Post added 2011-02-21 at 09:51 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Simca

Well, what if they changed our mastery so that it caused all of our heals to splash by 10%?

Or maybe just all of our Beacon of Light ticks to AoE splash by X%.

They could do something cool.

Edit: Eh, it'd probably be too overpowered though.

And the diffrence of it's usefulness would shift from almost uselss in 10 man to completely overpowered in 25 man.

**Simca** · 2011-02-21, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by Elessa

Also, about the gemming you suggest. I see you do not gem one blue socket in order to gain a +20 haste bonus in two pieces. I don't really think Int is worth that much more than haste and spirit.

Lets look at the gain/losses:
You gain 20 spirit and 20 haste at the cost of 20 int.

That's double the amount of our two best secondary stats! How can this not be worth it? This might just be personal preference by me though, but I'm matching every socket that only requires one gem and gives a +20 to haste or spirit.

It really is just personal preference.

I'm looking through the Paragon Holy Paladins - half of them are running 2x 40 Int gems in that socket configuration, and the other half are matching them.

I'll update it to note that, probably just adding a third section for "Personal preference".

As for the Divinity thing, now you have me curious, so I'll have to go respec a bunch to test non-Divinity specs and how the talent affects Beacon of Light! :<

**Hendrixstorm** · 2011-02-21, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Elessa

I'm pretty sure the last part of that is false. Beacon still transferres the original amount of healing to the beacon, even if there is a healing increasing effect on the target of the heal.

Also, about the gemming you suggest. I see you do not gem one blue socket in order to gain a +20 haste bonus in two pieces. I don't really think Int is worth that much more than haste and spirit.

Guardian spirit and Vamp blood do not increase the healing done to the beacon, the same that beacon does not double dip from mortal strikes. The gemming listed was correct. The difference is marginal, but you're trading less mana return and less throughput that also costs mana for more mana return and throughput that does not. If spirit to intellect were par to par stats, there would be a use ever for a spirit flask. There isn't.

oh that made me laugh... so are you about to heal raid/tanks so they wont die and you maybe will kill boss, or u are looking at the metters and be like "lol we wiped but look i did 1337HPS"
whats the diffrence if your healing will go to 0 for some time (as there are few fights that u r able to stop cast to regen) or at middle of a fight you will get oom and ppl will start dying....?

Please bother to actually read my post before making condescending and insulting responses filled with incorrect information. I don't know where you're getting these numbers that 12k mana will make a colossal difference between oom in the middle of a fight or skating by with plenty of mana. Also, your posts contradicts itself, you claim that there are fights where you cannot use Divine Plea, like heroic halfus (Which is total bullshit by the way, have you ever done or seen the fight?) yet you make the case for concentration potions, that last longer, give less mana, and reduce healing in that time by more. Being a good healer is about getting the most health to the right people as quickly as possible, managing any class given utility to mitigate as much incoming raid damage as nessecary/possible, and doing all that with the amount of resource you have available. If you oom in the middle of a fight, it's not being done correctly. That won't change between mana potions. The difference is exactly what I said it was. You lose between 50-100k healing done in the fight. Sometimes that doesn't matter, sometimes it does.

REGARDLESS of that altogether, I never once said not to use them. I am making the case that it is 12k mana, and 12k mana only. You need to have both concentration potions and mythical mana potions in your inventory in a raid to be a good holy paladin. Period. I'm making the case to use them wisely, not rarely.

Post better.

**thoukaia** · 2011-02-22, 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by Simca

Well, what if they changed our mastery so that it caused all of our heals to splash by 10%?

Or maybe just all of our Beacon of Light ticks to AoE splash by X%.

They could do something cool.

Edit: Eh, it'd probably be too overpowered though.

Or change it to the original:

When the paladin's healing spells crit, they will heal for more. (irony hits you for over 9000)

Jokes aside that was a pretty neat idea for a mastery. Loads better than the one we have now.

**Nillo** · 2011-02-22, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by thoukaia

Or change it to the original:

When the paladin's healing spells crit, they will heal for more. (irony hits you for over 9000)

Jokes aside that was a pretty neat idea for a mastery. Loads better than the one we have now.

That one was also kind of odd because it would be crap in lower tiers and scale too well with higher levels of crit.

**Simca** · 2011-02-22, 11:12 AM

Honestly, I cut Blizzard some slack in the mastery area - it is hard to design a Mastery that is good in PvE (10s, 25s, and heroics) and in PvP (Arenas, Rated BGs, and regular BGs).

**Elessa** · 2011-02-22, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Hendrixstorm

Guardian spirit and Vamp blood do not increase the healing done to the beacon, the same that beacon does not double dip from mortal strikes. The gemming listed was correct. The difference is marginal, but you're trading less mana return and less throughput that also costs mana for more mana return and throughput that does not. If spirit to intellect were par to par stats, there would be a use ever for a spirit flask. There isn't.

I am in no way saying that spirit=int, i am saying that 20 spirit AND 20 haste, is worth 20 int.

This may depend a lot on what content you are doing. If your argument is that top paladins use it, then maybe they use it because their gear already offers 'enough' spirit. Not saying that you can have enough spirit, but there is or will definately be a point at some point where it diminishes in value. Those top paladins do the hardest of all encounters, the average player does not.

About the healing % increase talents. Afaik beacon does not copy any % increases on the character, buffs or talents. For example, if you heal a feral cat the beacon transferr wouldn't get the 20% healing increase. The mechanics for PotI might be diffrent since it can only hit yourself.

**Hendrixstorm** · 2011-02-22, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Elessa

I am in no way saying that spirit=int, i am saying that 20 spirit AND 20 haste, is worth 20 int.

22 intellect will provide more mana return than 20 spirit, and more throughput than 20 haste. Even with the stats added together, intellect alone provides more of what those stats give, period.

Originally Posted by thoukaia

Or change it to the original:

When the paladin's healing spells crit, they will heal for more. (irony hits you for over 9000)

The problem with that is that all our spells can critically hit. Mostly/especially our multi-target spells. So, essentially, gearing would theoretically become all critical strike/mastery rating (Possibly forgoing even spirit on several pieces) and our mastery would just flood us with total mana free extra healing all the time. For the other healers, their mastery has to have a gimmick. Shamans need to heal the targets in need most, and druids need to direct heal HoT targets (Or something along the lines, the wording is confusing as jesus). Unless you're a priest. If you're a priest heal and forget.

**Elessa** · 2011-02-22, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by Hendrixstorm

22 intellect will provide more mana return than 20 spirit, and more throughput than 20 haste. Even with the stats added together, intellect alone provides more of what those stats give, period.

Can you post anything to back that up? Because I could say that 20 spirit gives more mana regen than 20 int, and 20 haste gives more thoughput.

**Hendrixstorm** · 2011-02-23, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by Elessa

Can you post anything to back that up? Because I could say that 20 spirit gives more mana regen than 20 int, and 20 haste gives more thoughput.

20 intellect (Before the additional .1025% is added from plate spec and kings) is:

330.75 maximum mana which is:
1.654 mp5 from Replenishment
1.654 mp5 from Divine Plea (more if glyphed as it should be)

24.255 spellpower More from % bonus spellpower modifiers, like totem of wrath
.0276 mp5 from the Divinity Glyph
.0826 mp5 from the Arcane Torrent racial
.034 spell critical strike rating
It also adds 22 points to the formula which calculates spirit based in combat regeneration, which looks like this:
Spirit = 0.0025 + [Spirit * Sqrt(Intellect) * 0.0083625]

20 haste is:
.156% spell haste rating, which varies in benefit based on the haste you already have

20 spirit is:
10 spell hit rating
20 additional points to the formula for calculating in combat mana regeneration

Because the above values were spread out, and everything but intellects bonus to spirit was calculated as only 20 points, if you plug in 22 intellect for the bonus spellpower mp5 etc by adding 10% and total it up, we can compare this side by side.

Throughput:
Intellect- 26.6805 Spellpower, 29.34855 after Totem of Wrath. .3344 spell critical strike rating VS .156% spell haste rating
There is also an extremley minor benefit from intellect gained spell critical strike rating for infusion of light, that is such a small number I have no desire whatsoever to crunch it.

Regeneration- 1.8194 mp5 from Divine plea. 1.8194 from Replenishment. 363.825 maximum mana. .03036 mp5 from the Divinity Glyph. .09086 from the blood elf racial, Arcane torrent. The total mp5 bonus is 3.76002. Intellect also provides 22 to the formula for in combat mana regeneration VS 20 added to the formula for in combat mana regeneration. 10 spell hit rating.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

**Nillo** · 2011-02-23, 01:58 AM

Originally Posted by Hendrixstorm

Let me know if you have any other questions.

You're missing any sort of conlusion...:
1) For my gear level the mana gained from spirit vs int of the mana regen formula would be:
from spirit: 11,7075 mp5
from int : 2.63 mp5
then you get some 4.5 mp5 from DP + Replenishment + some 3-7 mp5 from base mana depending on the fight length (~10-14 mp5)
=> For short fights int provides slightly more mana for longer fights (10 min+) Spirit is slightly ahead.

And about haste vs int I'm too tired to do the math now but last time I checked on EJ int was slightly ahead of haste in throughput. (http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t110847-...um_4_0_6_a/p8/)
So it does indeed seem that 20 int is slightly superior to 20spirit+haste.

**Hendrixstorm** · 2011-02-23, 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by Nillo

You're missing any sort of conlusion...:
1) For my gear level the mana gained from spirit vs int of the mana regen formula would be:
from spirit: 11,7075 mp5
from int : 2.63 mp5
then you get some 4.5 mp5 from DP + Replenishment + some 3-7 mp5 from base mana depending on the fight length (~10-14 mp5)
=> For short fights int provides slightly more mana for longer fights (10 min+) Spirit is slightly ahead.

I didn't need to give a flat out statement to have a conclusion. What is provided is enough to tell that intellect is superior to what is gained from the other gem.

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