Heroic: Nefarian 10-Man World First

[Lilyana]

Several fights are harder by far on 10m and harder by far on 25m. This goes for both normal and heroic (but the bosses will change).

Both 10m and 25m raid guilds have if you average it out, equal challenge.

For example pre nerf halfus, valonia were considered extreme by 25m hc guilds that had done them on hc 25. Those same guilds weren't able to do it on 10m.

Cho'gall normal 10m was way, way harder than 25m normal. Likewise, there are much harder 25m's to get through such as al'akir to name but one boss.

I have respect equally, for both in cataclysm :-)

[Lucyinthesky]

Right. But that's like saying you could kill a boss with 24 people.

You can't.

youre not making much sense here, ofcourse you can kill a boss with 24 people

[mustangzs2]

5 man dungeons difficulty =/= 10 man raid difficulty... I really can't see the logic behind this argument.

That's his entire argument.... apply it to 10 mans and 25 mans, 10 man raid difficulty =/= 25 man raid difficulty. (Even though 20% is higher than 10% it doesn't mean it's harder, same goes for 10% and 4%).

While I agree that some 10 man heroics are much harder (v/t, maybe others), the reason that 25 man has gone down first is because top end gamers go for the 25 player version. I assume they don't go clear 10 man for fun (oh hey we did it all on 25, now let's do it on 10 man and leave out 5 people!!!).

I personally would say 25 mans are harder for the simple fact that if you lose ONE PERSON you can still easily wipe (not that this isn't the case for 10 man). The thing is though, trying to coordinate 25 people is MUCH harder than coordinating 10, so even though 1 person in 25 man is only 4%, chances are that multiple people will fail if not coordinated correctly, whereas 1 would die in 10 man. Either way it'll probably be a wipe in heroics, but keeping 25 people alive is much, much harder than keeping 10 alive (bar v/t and maybe some other encounters on 10).

[Toskorae]

Right. But that's like saying you could kill a boss with 24 people.

You can't.

It's completely possible to kill a 25 man boss with 1 person dead.

His point is valid, 1 person makes more of an impact in a 10 man that 1 person does in a 25 man.

therefore if you lose 1 person in a 10 man you're taking a bigger hit that if you were to lose 1 person in 25 man.

[mustangzs2]

It's completely possible to kill a 25 man boss with 1 person dead.

His point is valid, 1 person makes more of an impact in a 10 man that 1 person does in a 25 man.

therefore if you lose 1 person in a 10 man you're taking a bigger hit that if you were to lose 1 person in 25 man.

His point is NOT valid.
In regular 25m, it is completely possible to down it with 24 people.
In heroic 25m, it is not possible unless you completely outgear it.

The same goes for 10 man.

[Toskorae]

His point is NOT valid.
In regular 25m, it is completely possible to down it with 24 people.
In heroic 25m, it is not possible unless you completely outgear it.

The same goes for 10 man.

Of course it will be difficult if you're 1 person down.

But it has a bigger impact in 10 man due to 1 person being a larger percentage of your raid group.

[mustangzs2]

Of course it will be difficult if you're 1 person down.

But it has a bigger impact in 10 man due to 1 person being a larger percentage of your raid group.

Read my post before the one you quoted.
It does not matter if it's a bigger impact if you still WIPE due to losing one person in both 10 and 25 heroic modes.
It is much harder to coordinate 25 people and keep them alive, thus making 25 mans harder than 10 mans.

[Oweena]

http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/5116_10

Paragon killed him 10 man Jan 31.

Tbh, that makes paragon the world first.

[Velenei]

Read my post before the one you quoted.
It does not matter if it's a bigger impact if you still WIPE due to losing one person in both 10 and 25 heroic modes.
It is much harder to coordinate 25 people and keep them alive, thus making 25 mans harder than 10 mans.

I would argue that 25 man is easier to keep people alive, as you have a ton more raid-wide cooldowns you can bring, and taking a 3rd tank doesn't bring your group down to only 4 dpsers. 25 man Nefarian you can be sure you have at least one cooldown for every single electrocute, whereas 10 man it's fairly likely you will take one or two unmitigated unless you class stack(which isn't an option for most 10 man guilds).

[mustangzs2]

I would argue that 25 man is easier to keep people alive, as you have a ton more raid-wide cooldowns you can bring, and taking a 3rd tank doesn't bring your group down to only 4 dpsers. 25 man Nefarian you can be sure you have at least one cooldown for every single electrocute, whereas 10 man it's fairly likely you will take one or two unmitigated unless you class stack(which isn't an option for most 10 man guilds).

The difference is mainly the coordination required. Coordination alone makes 25 man harder than 10 man. You can easily have 10 people stack / spread out, but it is much harder to get 25 people where they need to be without failures.
If one person screws up on 25 man (much more common than 10 man) it can, and usually does, wipe the raid.

You can class stack in 10 man just like you can in 25 man. Cooldowns such as barrier and amz and all that have a set amount of damage absorbed, so it doesn't matter how many people stand in them as long as it absorbs it's max. It absorbs the same in 10 and 25.

Generally blizzard balances the encounters around how many dps/tanks are required, so this is a moot point.

[Spongy]

His point is NOT valid.
In regular 25m, it is completely possible to down it with 24 people.
In heroic 25m, it is not possible unless you completely outgear it.

The same goes for 10 man.

People in this thread really have no idea what bosses are like on heroic especially fights like nef. In 10 man heroic you need 3 short cd interupts enough control for the adds enough healers to just keep everybody alive and 2 tanks while pushing out the dps requirements. As people have said SOME fights on 10 man are harder because you don't have the flexibility of swapping out 1 dps for a extra healer or another tank or whatever you need. But its same for 25 although you have more flexibility (when I say this you have 1-2 spots you can switch around,) when your doing a boss with limited space/room you can therefore take more damage than needed. The requirements for each individual player to bring the correct buffs/debuffs and ability to deal with a encounter while still putting out the required healing/tanking/dps. People arn't saying you can do a 25 man heroic boss with 24 they are saying you can say bring in another tank or healer.

Yes there is alot more chance for RNG deaths and things to go wrong in 25 man BUT there is alot flexibility and 25 mans generally get alot more hardcore players going for it. Saying more chance for people to mess up, lets be honest at the level of gaming required to get these bosses down in speed they do. Not many fuck ups happen and if they happen more than twice that guys probably out for the night.

This is a big achievement and well played to these guys for doing it.

[Frozendekay]

http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/5116_10

Paragon killed him 10 man Jan 31.

Tbh, that makes paragon the world first.

No they didnt. A paragon member said, in this thread, that they have not.

l2read.

[mustangzs2]

Yes there is alot more chance for RNG deaths and things to go wrong in 25 man BUT there is alot flexibility and 25 mans generally get alot more hardcore players going for it. Saying more chance for people to mess up, lets be honest at the level of gaming required to get these bosses down in speed they do. Not many fuck ups happen and if they happen more than twice that guys probably out for the night.

Fuck ups happen all the time, I don't understand how you can claim that it's easy to coordinate 25 people to do perfectly on every attempt of a boss fight. Flexibility allows 25 mans to choose what to bring, but it doesn't help coordinate shit. You could have all the flexibility in the world and fail on a boss fight because your teammates weren't coordinated (Heroic omni comes to mind).

[Frozendekay]

I would argue that 25 man is easier to keep people alive, as you have a ton more raid-wide cooldowns you can bring, and taking a 3rd tank doesn't bring your group down to only 4 dpsers. 25 man Nefarian you can be sure you have at least one cooldown for every single electrocute, whereas 10 man it's fairly likely you will take one or two unmitigated unless you class stack(which isn't an option for most 10 man guilds).

I would very much dispute this. It is much harder to die in a 10 man raid imo, and that's where it balances out - 1 player dying impacts you more in 10 man sure, but it also happens much less often. I think that entire argument is pointless.

[mustangzs2]

I would very much dispute this. It is much harder to die in a 10 man raid imo, and that's where it balances out - 1 player dying impacts you more in 10 man sure, but it also happens much less often. I think that entire argument is pointless.

I agree. 2 (or 3) healers healing 5 people (3-4 if 3 heals) each is MUCH easier than it is on 25 man. Coordination, as I already pointed out, is also much easier on 10 man.

[Spongy]

Fuck ups happen all the time, I don't understand how you can claim that it's easy to coordinate 25 people to do perfectly on every attempt of a boss fight. Flexibility allows 25 mans to choose what to bring, but it doesn't help coordinate shit. You could have all the flexibility in the world and fail on a boss fight because your teammates weren't coordinated (Heroic omni comes to mind).

I never said it was easier to co ordinate but in there case its generally not as much of an issues as the average guilds. If it was they would never get as far as they do. 25 man flexibility means if you need a extra tank or healer to kill it. WELL GUESS WHAT you have the ability to do so without losing to much dps. Where as on 10 man if you get rid of a dps for an extra healer or an extra tank or another interupter and your going to gimp yourself to much also your rooster probally isn't going to be as big so having the extra people always ready in a section of raiding (10 man) which generally everybody has little interest in now.

[MAGAmobile]

Both raid sizes have different obstacles to overcome and they are NOT comparable in any way. Can we please just drop the whole 10v25 debate on which is harder. Does it really matter? They shouldn't even be considered the same, because they are not. The only things that are really similar are the boss names and their abilities. Strategy wise, they are completely different on how you handle them. Both should get their own praise from the community as a whole, but not put in the same bracket ever.

[Deleted]

Stop being so narrow-minded, people.

25-mans and 10-mans are as close in difficulty as they can possibly be. Due to fight mechanics, some bosses are easier on 10-man and some are harder. The same goes the other way around: some fights are easier on 25-man and some are harder.

There's no point in claiming one is harder than the other. The fact stands: some bosses still haven't been downed on 10-man yet, whether due to difficulty or lack of top-end raiders doesn't remove the feat that is a world first X-man kill.

[Yoijimbo]

10 and 25 are on the same line - it's just normal that hard core raiding guilds progress them first, and they have 25 players to do it - the date of killing doesn't really matter when was it killed... hardcore 10 man raiding guild is pretty rare sight

[Valamivan]

Hmm, so 10man raids are on the same line, or according to some easier? So the hardcore guilds went for 25m because they are 25m?
Those guilds wanted to get those kills FIRST, that's the only thing that mattered. Do you really think if that if 25m is the harder option they would rather go with that? No, read their posts, they did whatever they had to. They had to bring a raid full of kitties? They did it! If 10man was easier THEY WOULD HAVE DONE IT ON 10MAN, you can bet your pinky on that! Because that would have brought them the first kill. C'mon guys, use your brainses! Do you really think up there they would risk being the second just to stick to 25man?
End of argument.