The Alterac Valley imbalance, now with 7% units of percantage more facts.

[harky]

AV has been known to be Alliance-biased since Vanilla. Why would that change now?

Average: 55/45 Horde
AV: 51/49 Alliance

Obviously the other 5 BGs, which are roughly symmetrical maps, are Horde biased.

[Deleted]

By the same logic, higher population = more bad geared people.

[Ltsmash]

That chart posted lastnight is only going to create more forum posts like this..

yay.

[Deleted]

So after reading through the news, I realized something while reading some of the posts.
There are actually people who doesn't recognize the clear terrain-advantage the Alliance has in AV?
What does the graphs tell us? They show significant difference in win:loss even over hundreds of thousands of games.
Suddenly the Alliance turn the tables completely in AV, where the Horde ironically dominated rushing games until:
*Horde cave pushed back.
*Horde cave pushed back AGAIN.
*Balinda seriously buffed.
*AND GOT ICE BLOCK.

When was the last time you considered:
*Frostwolf Towers are free to cap. Archers cannot shoot you at the flag.
(Bunkers have this one special square-feet area where you can cap without getting shot and thus forced to kill an archer.)

*The Frostwolf Towers are perfectly placed to always attract a few alliance to stay there, and why not? They're stationed only metres from the faceroll-route.
(Compare to SH Bunker which is secluded from the general faceroll-route. Also, alliance that spawns at SH GY are very likely to go for SH Bunker, as it is very visible while traveling south. Same with IW Bunker, it's visible right after you ressurect at SH GY.)

*Traveltime between Bunkers compared to Towers.

*The hordes IB GY is placed with a mountain between it and IW Tower. The first Law of BG Faceroll is to care only of what you can see while respawning. Hordes rarely go south from IW GY.

*Galvangar has nothing worth mentioning. Keep an eye on reinforcements. How often does the Alliance drop to 500 before the Horde? Once every tenth game?
(Balinda with her lovely Ice Block.)

*While entering the Alliance base you WILL take many times more damage from archers than when rushing Frostwolf.
(The only time you'll actually care about the Horde archers are if you're alone rushing FW GY.)

*AS is swarming with high health elites.
(How many do you attract while doing the obvious avoiding-route through lower Frostwolf Keep? The orc female with a couple dozen thousand health?)

The Wonder Bridge. Perfect placement for the archers while the few defenders keep you there. Any AoE will aggro the dwarf chilling at the end of it.
(Where in Frostwolf would you have to be to be in any real danger by the archers? Ah, right outside Drek'thar )

No, preaching about the magical Scorched Earth doesn't justify it. BGs are faceroll and the Horde are at a disadvantage in AV because of it. There's a clear terrain advantage, a clear advantage of how Towers vs Bunkers are placed and their layout. Traveltime does differ. AV can only be balanced during long games, which are gone since years back.

The only reason Blizzard aren't doing anything about it is because of the clear Horde dominance in the rest of the Battlegrounds.

But let me guess, the graphs are completely wrong. A sudden 7~ units of percentage jump in Win:loss is without a doubt caused by SOMETHING ELSE than above mentioned reasons, right?

And the illusion of imbalance persists to this day. Rarely have I met competent Horde who knew exactly where to choke and completely stop the Alliance.

Here's a tip: It's on your side of the map, and it's a narrow pass near a graveyard.
Learn to use it and abuse it, because it's the best choke and smallest point on the map.

[Elite Peon]

WRONG WRONG WRONG ...the OP and all the people posting in this thread that horde have a disadvantage are all wrong . The reason the horde loses more in AV ?? All horde want to do is gank and get HK's period ...This is how a typical AV goes horde side . They all rush to kill belinda say 60% of the team then maybe 20% go to turtle at galv then there are the 20% who go hk farming right off the bat ...so they kill belinda and slow down alliance a little at galv . Now 90% of horde go back south and try to get hk's instead of going north and getting the objectives ??? Why ..why do they do this everytime ?? The alliance win what a suprise because 90% of there team goes after the objectives and not hk farming .

The mentality difference between the horde and alliance is really funny . Horde only want to hk farm and alliance players typically want to do the objectives.

[GoblinSnowman]

To clarify what I think some other people are trying to say;

Right now, based on the statistics that are available, it seems that the Horde wins in a majority of cases in every battleground except for Alterac Valley. For the most part, the battlegrounds in which the Horde are winning appear to have no overt advantage to either faction (with the exception of Isle of Conquest). Given the data available, it would be reasonable to conclude that for whatever the reason, the Horde wins more battlegrounds and is "better" at battlegrounds (Using that word makes me cringe, but it is applicable).

Carrying on from the conclusion reached above, it would also be reasonable to expect a similar data distribution regarding win ratio in Alterac Valley, if all other things are held equal. Since this is not the case, and in fact runs counter to what the rest of the data suggests, either the initial conclusion is incorrect (that Horde is "better" in battlegrounds) or another factor has changed that alters our data. Since Alterac Valley is not a mirrored map, and given that there are multiple battlegrounds that are mirrored that redundantly support the initial conclusion, it is reasonable to conclude that Alterac Valley has a factor in it that makes it more likely for the Alliance to win in there.

Christ, I feel like I'm writing to an actual journal right now.

[harky]

QFT. I mean, Alliance got 1Battleground where alliance has more wins, and now you are crying? just go into an other battleground, you will have atleast 54% win rate. and year i know, a kitten died

Yeah, that last line was sarcasm. I should have been more clear. Horde are winning all the balanced BG maps. Meanwhile Alliance is winning AV much more often. It actually shows that while 51/49 looks like it's the closest, it actually means it's less balanced. EoTS at 58/42 is actually closer to the norm (+/- 3) than AV at 51/49 (+/- 6). This is in fact not fair to Horde players. It means that they are outplaying Alliance slightly in BGs, but Alliance still win despite being outplayed. Players should be rewarded proportionately to their performance.

[Deleted]

*Galvangar has nothing worth mentioning. Keep an eye on reinforcements. How often does the Alliance drop to 500 before the Horde? Once every tenth game?
(Balinda with her lovely Ice Block.)

Cause Galvangar fear NEVER resets the encounter... oh wait... All you need for that to happen is one person overaggroing the tank with taunt on CD that is standing >middle of the room and he will be feared out of the keep and he will reset. A Ice block atleast doesnt reset the encounter.

And just cause you choose to run through the FoS doesnt make the placement of SH bunker wrong. Just run that way insted. No alliance ever defends it cause of its placement, Since we always run West of Balinda.

DB is unbalanced compared to FW that ill give you, but the placement of SP gy is better then FW gy none the less. Easier to build pressure in DB then in FW.

The only reason Alliance wins AV is cause Horde just gives up, when you try to defend towers you always cap SH gy which makes all Alliance spawn at either SP or DB. And you got a slow game running on reinforcements. Just do it right. Defend IB and TP towers, and let alliance have SF and SH gy. You win 80% of the time. And if you wanna increase this number go defend galv. Force the tank to stand close to the entrance and make him blow he's trinket. And Galv will do the rest, ie fearing the tank outside and resetting...

[Clockwork Pinkie]

Blame the horde for placing their towers like that. /rp. It's been 5 years since AV's been out I think, surely each faction has figured out the best way to win. There's no imbalance, it's just different for each side.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Is it more that AV is unbalanced in favor of the Alliance, or that every other map is unbalanced in favor of the horde? Or, are the horde just better in General?

With the vast majority of wins going to the Horde on every other BG, why are you complaining about the one map that is not dominated by the horde? Is this more even playing field ruining your life?

I have been in plenty of AV matches where the Horde Wins, if perhaps the percentage was 70-30 in favor of alliance I could agree with you. Even considering the numbers posted are not 100% accurate since they are not from Blizzard, the AV matches for the last year show barely a 2% difference. "The "Battlegrounds Wins in the Last Year" graph is the only thing you should look at if you want an idea of how things are balanced these days."

Essentially the Horde dominate PVP, and on one map things are pretty even, get over yourself.

I was going to say the same actually, by luck I took some time to read.

You guys are clearly QQing over something that doesn't to be QQed. Hordies are clearly winning majority of BGs and for once, alliance have a chance to be EVEN with the horde, if not still a bit under. Imo all BGs should be this way, sadly, they aren't. So get over it, you're not a 5 years old kid. Now if you were speaking of alliance beign in disadvantage I would then say it's a good topic.

[GoblinSnowman]

idototems, do you dispute that the data available to the player base supports the idea that (for whatever reason) the Horde is, in general, winning more Battlegrounds than the Alliance? I'd like to make sure we're even talking about the same thing before we discuss the matter.

If that is the case, then do you also agree with the idea that the Alterac Valley win ratio is a significant outlier, and runs counter to the idea that the Horde are winning more battlegrounds?

If both of these things are true, them one can conclude that regardless of what specific reason (Whether it be the Tower differences, the geography, or whatever else one can think of) Alterac Valley has some factor that makes the Alliance win much more often than the data would expect. I'm assuming that the players of these battlegrounds are the same (i.e., there is not a specific section of the population that never/only enters Alterac Valley), and if the players are the same, there must be some factor in the battleground itself.

EDIT - Freedom4u2, please look at my initial post for why this is a problem. Actually, to be frank, there are two problems. To be honest, the Horde should not be winning a clear majority of mirrored battlegrounds to begin with. However, there is no clear reason for why this is the case. In the meantime, it would be worthwhile to make sure that both factions are at facing each other on equal grounds.

[Majyqman]

People saying it doesn't matter because Horde is better at every other BG are wrong.
A BG like SoTA, which 100% the same for both sides, still has more Horde wins.
AV is the only BG which stands out compared to the others, therefor common logic would be that if anything, that's one of the most unbalanced BG's.

Amusing.

The battleground where all else is equal is the one you bring up.

Where there's less than a 4% spread.

So why are we discussing the one BG where alliance are favored in comparison to this...

and NOT all the battlegrounds where they suffer greatly in win %?

Doesn't it stand to reason if non-skill based factors are, as the OP claims, making it difficult for horde in Alterac, that the reverse MUST hold true in all the OTHER BG's where it seems the alliance is encountering difficulty? (because, like YOU said, if it differs greatly from the results of the "purely even" setup... then something must be unbalanced about them... maybe not to the extent of Alterac... but there's also a lot more of them...)

[Deleted]

Yes, Horde wins most BG. And its cause they outplay Alliance.
But the reason they are losing AV, isnt cause of map imbalance. Its merely cause they give up in AVs and rather farm kills then doing the objectives.

I play alliance, i have a positive win ratio in all BGs, except AB. The Eots number is the one that confuses me the most, i won 77% of the Eots ive played. The others are more close to the numbers for all players, except that alliance is favorable from my stats. (and no its not cause im a amazing player, more of the fact that when i do pvp i play with 3-4 of my friends and we usually manage to make the rest do what they should be doing)

[Draqn]

Its arguable that the current position of the Horde spawn point does or does not put them at a disadvantage so I will just leave this as a moot point.



But it only delays you for a max of 10s, that is completely insignificant compared to the entire battle. Had they buffed her damage to dangerous levels then we would have an argument.

Point is though, the one who kills bal/galv first get a 30(?) % hp buff which is indeed quite the advantage, and thne again how many games have you lost when your boss was at 10%? Those 10secs would look mighty fine then.

[ciggy]

av is fine, angry horde is angry and hordie..

Nothing to see here, not sure why i posted.

[Szemere]

Reason why alliance win this one more than other battlegrounds, is because this has become a PvE battleground. Where the horde is clearly better at PvP in average, alliance is about equally "good" (don't know if i should call the total chaos there "good") in this PvEable battleground. Now if you had something against this battleground, you should complain about the amount of pvp needed to win: none.

[GoblinSnowman]

av is fine, angry horde is angry and hordie..

Nothing to see here, not sure why i posted.

Excellent contribution to the discussion. I appreciate your rare candor and wit, and look forward to crossing words with you again, worthy foe!

I'm of the mind that it is not worthwhile to start examining specific reasons for why Alterac Valley is standing out as an exception before we can even come to a consensus as to whether it's an exception at all. Rather than retyping what I've already stated twice, I would direct people to read my earlier posts (on page three), and see if they disagree with my reasoning. I understand that asking for reasoned, scientific discussions on the internet is somewhat....dumb, but I would like to see what people think.

[Dahak]

I think you're confusing something here.


AV "imbalance": Alliance wins in the last year, just over 50%. Horde wins in the last year, just under 50%.

Eye of the Storm: Alliance wins in the last year, 42%. Horde wins in the last year, 58%

AV: Less than 1% difference in victories.
EotS: 8% difference in victories.

Thus, AV: Statistically more balanced than Eye of the Storm. (I picked Eye because it's the biggest difference. The same is true of all the other BGs, but to a lesser degree).

[mireigi]

WRONG WRONG WRONG ...the OP and all the people posting in this thread that horde have a disadvantage are all wrong . The reason the horde loses more in AV ?? All horde want to do is gank and get HK's period ...This is how a typical AV goes horde side . They all rush to kill belinda say 60% of the team then maybe 20% go to turtle at galv then there are the 20% who go hk farming right off the bat ...so they kill belinda and slow down alliance a little at galv . Now 90% of horde go back south and try to get hk's instead of going north and getting the objectives ??? Why ..why do they do this everytime ?? The alliance win what a suprise because 90% of there team goes after the objectives and not hk farming .

The mentality difference between the horde and alliance is really funny . Horde only want to hk farm and alliance players typically want to do the objectives.

You DO realize that we're talking about PvP here, as in Player versus Player?

Killing a few NPC's and destroying some buildings have nothing to do with PvP. Alterac Valley have turned into a PvE encounter with dynamic resistance. Hell, you'll even MISS on Drek'thar / Vanndar if you don't have 17% hit rating.

Now, if the objective was to kill a specific enemy PLAYER rather than a NPC, then I'd call Alterac Valley a PvP encounter.

In fact Alterac Valley should be something like this:
1 player gets promoted to Commander.
1 Player gets promoted to Captain.
4 Players gets promoted to Lieutenant.

Commander:
+1500% HP
+100% Mana, Energy or Rage
+75% damage
Size increased to 400%
Carries a Red/Blue banner (Horde/Alliance)
Aura: +20% damage to all nearby, non-promoted allies within a 50yd radius.
On-death: The team loses

Captain:
+750% HP
+50% Mana, Energy or Rage
+50% damage
Size increased to 300%
Carries a Black/Yellow banner (Horde/Alliance)
Aura: +20% healing done to all allies within a 50yd radius
On-death: All non-promoted allies within a 50yd radius regain 200% of their maximum HP over 20 seconds.

Lieutenants:
+500% HP
+25% damage
Size increased to 200%
Carries an Orange/Green banner (Horde/Alliance)
Aura: Reduces damage done to all promoted allies within a 50yd radius by 10% (stacks)
On-death: All non-promoted allies within a 50yd radius gain +10% damage for 30 seconds

When a promoted player dies, that promotion is gone for good.

This will basicly turn Alterac Valley into one giant skirmish, where the objective is to kill the enemy Commander and his/her Captain and Lieutenants. Just like it is today, but with Players taking on the role of Drek'thar/Vanndar, Galv/Belinda and the 4 Marshalls.

The following will be key to victory:
1. Staying together as a single army
2. Protecting your promoted allies
3. Killing off promoted enemy Lieutenants

[Tibro]

Just created an account to add my 2c.

From personal experience, and from hearing the complaints of friends and forum goers, this win disparity could be because of population imbalances. A significant number of my AV losses come from the match starting with around 38 alliance to 24 horde or something similar, not getting to 40v40 until the game is almost over. Obviously Alliance are going to win in a situation like that (surprisingly not always though). Being 40v40, this BG is more susceptible to team imbalance. Isle of Conquest, being the "newer, shinier" battleground might not have these problems. Also due to the perceived imbalance, more alliance may sign up for AV, and more horde probably avoid it, compounding the problem.

Even though I personally feel that Horde have an advantage in this BG (as said earlier, defend then counterpush is the way to go).

This is just my experience anyway, but it's happened enough that I really can't trust those statistics.