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  1. #1
    Deleted

    Question about Dots and Haste, no not that one i read the sticky already. :D

    Heya all! First post and a new member of the site although I've read it some time now. Lemme know if I do something wrong and I'll correct it.

    So I was wondering how haste effects the Dots (as I'm new to warlocks) and I found the marvelous sticky post here on the forum. But my question is rather how haste-boosts (trinkets, lifebloom, eradication procs) effects ongoing Dots. If I get an Eradication proc, is my already applied Dots hastened up or do I need to reapply the Dots for them to benefit from my new haste? And IF I reapply them do they benefit from the boosted haste their full duration or just until Eradication falls off?

    Also on a side note, I have some q about stat prioritising as an affliction pvp lock. After hit is capped, and I've gathered enough haste to get 1-2 extra ticks on my Dots, is mastery the way to go? (also what about spell penetration? what's a decent amount?)

    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by mmocf0184b7373; 2011-02-22 at 11:20 PM. Reason: spelling..

  2. #2
    Field Marshal Feesh's Avatar
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    The way haste affects DoTs is that it reduces the time in between ticks of the spell, i.e. the original time between ticks is 2 seconds for 18 seconds, haste will lower this to 1.99 seconds for 18 seconds etc. Thanks to the new way dots work in cataclysm, haste is always beneficial. Refreshing a DoT now refreshes the duration only and will not reset the DoT (DoT clipping). Due to this, haste always helps assuming you don't let your dots fall off.

    In response to the trinkets , the time in between dots is increased regardless of when the dot was applied, i.e. you cast corruption and then eradication procs. The dots will tick faster for the duration of the buff and there is no need to reapply while eradication is up they will return to normal as soon as eradication falls off.

    And as to the stat prioritising for affliction pvp, you only need roughly 3% hit rating in PvP, and 3 spell pen. gems usually cap you but I'm not sure about specific numbers. If you're looking for a simple stat weight for affliction PvP though, Int>hit (until capped at 3%)>spell pen (3 gems worth)>haste>mastery>crit. Stamina and resilience should simply be on all of your PvP gear and thus I'm ignoring them.

    Edit- yes, I just confused buffs and debuffs, thanks for pointing that out Sakpoth.
    Last edited by Feesh; 2011-02-23 at 10:25 PM. Reason: Corrected

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Feesh View Post
    In response to the trinkets , the time in between dots is increased regardless of when the dot was applied, i.e. you cast corruption and then eradication procs. The dots will tick faster for the duration of the buff and there is no need to reapply while eradication is up they will return to normal as soon as eradication falls off.
    This is wrong.

    DoTs take your stats upon application, not on each tick. That means that any buffs gained after the application of a DoT will not affect it, in return the DoT benefit will from any buff for their full duration as long as you had the buff when you applied the DoT, even if the buff falls off.

    Spell hit cap in PvP is 4%, spell penetration needed to negate BoK/MotW is 195, spell penetration needed to negate Mage Armor is 240.

    Edit: I can also add in that Feesh probably mixed how buffs and debuffs works. The DoT will take any debuffs on the target on each individual tick, opposite to buffs on you which is only read on application.
    Last edited by Khadjid; 2011-02-22 at 11:57 PM.

  4. #4
    Deleted
    Ok thanks! So tell me, do you think Eradicate is valid in pvp? I mean to recast all my dots on a RNG basis just seems.. hard to handle with everything else going on in pvp (maybe thats just me not having adjusted to this new class yet).

    And also, haste>mastery like always always?? If I have enough mastery to make +1 tick if I reforged it all to haste should I reforge it? The haste required per each tick after +1 tick just seems so high to me. A stright +% on all Dot dmg seems pretty juicy and desirable to me :P

  5. #5
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Feesh View Post

    In response to the trinkets , the time in between dots is increased regardless of when the dot was applied, i.e. you cast corruption and then eradication procs. The dots will tick faster for the duration of the buff and there is no need to reapply while eradication is up they will return to normal as soon as eradication falls off.

    Why say something so totally wrong in such an absolute way? Anyway, the post above mine explains the way DoTs work indeed.

  6. #6
    Deleted
    Bump :S As Syddie posted after me but didnt realise.
    Ok thanks! So tell me, do you think Eradicate is valid in pvp? I mean to recast all my dots on a RNG basis just seems.. hard to handle with everything else going on in pvp (maybe thats just me not having adjusted to this new class yet).

    And also, haste>mastery like always always?? If I have enough mastery to make +1 tick if I reforged it all to haste should I reforge it? The haste required per each tick after +1 tick just seems so high to me. A stright +% on all Dot dmg seems pretty juicy and desirable to me :P

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by the ninja rabbit View Post
    Ok thanks! So tell me, do you think Eradicate is valid in pvp? I mean to recast all my dots on a RNG basis just seems.. hard to handle with everything else going on in pvp (maybe thats just me not having adjusted to this new class yet).

    And also, haste>mastery like always always?? If I have enough mastery to make +1 tick if I reforged it all to haste should I reforge it? The haste required per each tick after +1 tick just seems so high to me. A stright +% on all Dot dmg seems pretty juicy and desirable to me :P
    Hmm...I havn't pvped on my lock since cata, but in pve, haste>mastery>crit always.

    For pvp, I think it would depend on your dot uptimes...if you can maintain the dots on everyone all the time, then haste>mastery>crit...but you obviously can't. I would say it probably depends on the skill of the other teams healer....are they dispelling, how fast are the dispelling, etc...if they aren't dispelling at all, but you can't keep your dots always up, then having a dot hit harder>ticking faster w/o any more ticks. If they are dispelling, then I'd say it depends on how fast. Haste speeds up the ticks, so with more haste, you might be able to get another tick or so before the dot is dispelled...

  8. #8
    Deleted
    I'm a little bit confused to. I've always thought I've been clipping the end of a DoT off, so I've always waited til it is just about the fall off and reapplied it the second it does so I get the last tick. Seeing as I have about 25% haste +3% DI etc in my raids, should I be reapplying my DoTs much earlier or should I wait them out til the end? (by the end, I mean I'm already recasting it so it reapplies immediately after it has finished it's duration) I've read the sticky as well, but those who post seem to know/understand a lot more about the mechanics behind spells than I do.. so it gets a bit confusing. How do I work out how early I should be reapplying?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Estasi View Post
    I'm a little bit confused to. I've always thought I've been clipping the end of a DoT off, so I've always waited til it is just about the fall off and reapplied it the second it does so I get the last tick. Seeing as I have about 25% haste +3% DI etc in my raids, should I be reapplying my DoTs much earlier or should I wait them out til the end? (by the end, I mean I'm already recasting it so it reapplies immediately after it has finished it's duration) I've read the sticky as well, but those who post seem to know/understand a lot more about the mechanics behind spells than I do.. so it gets a bit confusing. How do I work out how early I should be reapplying?
    As stated in the sticky, you should reapply your DoT between the last and second to last tick. The last tick is always at 0 seconds left, the second to last depends on the amount of haste you had at the application of the DoT and is calculated this way:
    (BASE_TICK_FREQUENCY)/(1 + haste).

    The DoTs that scales with haste and that you need to clip are UA, Immolate and Corruption. They all have the same base tick frequency (3 seconds), so the calculation is the same for all of them.

    25% haste + 3% from DI = 1.25*1.03 = 1.2875 = 28.75% haste
    3s/1.2875 = 2.33s
    With no haste procs your second to last tick occurs at 2.33 seconds remaining, so you need to refresh your DoTs somewhere between 0 and 2.33 seconds remaining to not lose any dps from letting it fall off or clipping early.

    Note that this case was with no additional haste buffs, if you for example had haste buffs that brought you to 100% haste total your second to last tick would occur at (3s/2) = 1.5 seconds remaining.

  10. #10
    My understanding with the new way dot's work was that there is no longer dot clipping, it just added the duration to the duration that is left. Ex. you have 2 seconds left on corruption, you reapply, it now has a duration of 20 seconds. I could be wrong, but that was just the way i understood it.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Seasonedbeef View Post
    My understanding with the new way dot's work was that there is no longer dot clipping, it just added the duration to the duration that is left. Ex. you have 2 seconds left on corruption, you reapply, it now has a duration of 20 seconds. I could be wrong, but that was just the way i understood it.
    That is correct to some point, but the new duration when refreshing your DoT is limited to (BASE_DURATION + 1 tick). That means that if you clip your DoT with only the last tick remaining, you will add the full duration of the DoT and add the last tick which means that noting is lost. If you clip your DoT with 2 ticks remaining, you will add the full duration and add one of the two remaining ticks to the new duration, you just lost one tick of damage on your DoT.

    Assuming no haste and a tick frquency of 3 seconds on your corruption:
    Reapplying at 2 seconds remaining -> new duration is 20 seconds
    Reapplying at 3 seconds remaining -> new duration is 21 seconds
    Reapplying at 4 seconds remaining -> new duration is 19 seconds

  12. #12
    Alright I have been reading these forums for probably little over a year just to see what people are saying but never created an account to comment... But, now I have found a question that I have also wondered for awhile.

    So, since the DoT takes on the haste of when applied, is it worth it to clip your DoTs if you have a significant buff (trinket, talent, bloodlust) for the increased hasted DoT.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by estorilblau View Post
    Alright I have been reading these forums for probably little over a year just to see what people are saying but never created an account to comment... But, now I have found a question that I have also wondered for awhile.

    So, since the DoT takes on the haste of when applied, is it worth it to clip your DoTs if you have a significant buff (trinket, talent, bloodlust) for the increased hasted DoT.
    I have read both that dots follow haste procs on the fly (as in they speed up if you get a haste proc for the duration), and that they don't so you'd need to re-apply them...similar to how dots work with % damage buffs (i.e. ISF)...my guess is that the 2nd is the case, that you'd need to reapply them as it doesn't make sense that bliz found a way to make dots follow haste on the fly, but hasn't figured out how to make them do the same thing with % damage. But that is just based on logic, no idea if it's correct.

  14. #14
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
    I have read both that dots follow haste procs on the fly (as in they speed up if you get a haste proc for the duration), and that they don't so you'd need to re-apply them...similar to how dots work with % damage buffs (i.e. ISF)...my guess is that the 2nd is the case.

    It's not a case to have a guess. It is the second indeed and everyone can check in on target dummy in less than half a minute.

    But I think what the guy above asked is if it's worth clipping ur DoTs way too early when a significant buff procs. Like volcanic destruction from darkmoon trinket. I have some thoughts on that but since I dont have mathematical proof I won't say anything.
    Last edited by mmoc3909f59698; 2011-02-23 at 10:44 PM.

  15. #15
    Deleted
    The DoT will take any debuffs on the target on each individual tick, opposite to buffs on you which is only read on application.
    Hmm I'm pretty sure I tester this with the Haunt effect (+23% dot dmg) and found that the effect applied even to ongoing dots (as in ticks suddenly got higher). Am i wrong? It would be nice to know if the same applied to demon soul: felhunter. I can test it tomorrow, but right now I'm off to sleep But as of now when i'm in arena I have a demon soul+spellpower trinket macro, and after activating it and cast haunt I just reapply the dots just in case, wich is kinda stupid.

    But if someone already knows for sure if the following effects ongoing dots or not pls share and clarify:
    •Spellpower/haste trinkets/effects
    •Demon Soul: Felhunter
    •Haunt

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by the ninja rabbit View Post
    Hmm I'm pretty sure I tester this with the Haunt effect (+23% dot dmg) and found that the effect applied even to ongoing dots (as in ticks suddenly got higher). Am i wrong? It would be nice to know if the same applied to demon soul: felhunter. I can test it tomorrow, but right now I'm off to sleep But as of now when i'm in arena I have a demon soul+spellpower trinket macro, and after activating it and cast haunt I just reapply the dots just in case, wich is kinda stupid.

    But if someone already knows for sure if the following effects ongoing dots or not pls share and clarify:
    •Spellpower/haste trinkets/effects
    •Demon Soul: Felhunter
    •Haunt
    As I said in your quote of me.
    Buffs on you: have to reapply to get the benefit
    Debuffs on target: no need to reapply

    Haunt is a debuff that is applied to the target, so your dots will automatically scale with the bonus damage from Haunt.
    Demon soul, trinkets, other procs are buffs you gain, which means for your dots to scale with them, you'll have to reapply the dot.

  17. #17
    I put this in the sticky but moved it here instead since that's focused on haste. After doing some testing for destro:

    It's only worth stacking dots with procs if it's BoD (because you have a 14 second window - always worth doing) or if you would lose no more than a tick of immolate by waiting for a good proc. For me only Volcanic Destruction and Stump proc are worth doing, but this scenario rarely happens and isn't that important (about 1k extra damage over immolate's duration if only 1 tick is lost due to downtime).

    As for refreshing dots when procs occur, I gain about 680 per tick if I cast immolate with my best proc (Battle Magic), 593 with Volcanic Destruction. Multiplying this by 7 (including the initial immolate damage here) I get 4760 extra damage by casting immolate with my trinket. If I had both procs up, this would be 8911 or so (approximate), and with all my procs up (lightweave and Power torrent), we're looking at about 11711 extra damage from recasting immolate during these procs. In reality, I'm probably looking at about 7-8k because it's unlikely i'll have all procs up at once. Even if I get 11k extra though, the DPCT of incinerate is around 12k which still makes it a better use of GCD than refreshing dots during procs.

    I did quite a lot of testing on dummies, if any of this is wrong let me know. It will depend on what procs you get of course.

    Sorry this isn't affliction but it should help you maybe work it out for yourself at least.

  18. #18
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    Haunt is a debuff that is applied to the target, so your dots will automatically scale with the bonus damage from Haunt.
    Ehm can't belive I just misses that. Blaming the late hour :P Anyways thanks all for the replies!

  19. #19
    Stood in the Fire rethea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veriu View Post
    Hmm...I havn't pvped on my lock since cata, but in pve, haste>mastery>crit always.
    WHAT? There is just so much wrong information in this thread. Haste, mastery, and crit move around quite a bit based on gear level and spec... but even affliction is usually crit>mastery.

  20. #20
    Lets get down to the question at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syddie View Post
    But I think what the guy above asked is if it's worth clipping ur DoTs way too early when a significant buff procs. Like volcanic destruction from darkmoon trinket. I have some thoughts on that but since I dont have mathematical proof I won't say anything.
    Does the DPS gain from certain haste/tinket/damage pool on the ground etc. worth significantly clipping your dots for affliction which damage derives from dots?


    I also thought of another one. When fel flame or haunt refresh your DoT does that DoT take on you current haste/trinket or does it stay on same basis on when it was applied?
    Last edited by estorilblau; 2011-02-25 at 01:17 PM.

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